Downey or Sopel?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Of course Downey. He's an enforcer who actually has a slim chance of making the Wings roster. Anyone who's been a Wings fan for the last several years knows just how odd that is.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

i gotta go with Neither myself..

Sopel isn;t what we need in defense, and Downey isn;t what we need either..

we just don't need another Brad Norton

I guess you've never seen Downey skate becuase Brad Norton isn't half the skater nor half the physical presence of Downey. Of course I don't expect you to know everything so i'll let it slide this time.

[KATIEBARTHEDOOR24 426]

Sopel's no good, he gets into to much trouble giving up the puck in his own zone at the worst time all the time. You might as well have Cory Cross. I'd go with either Downey or one of the GR kids.

[redmathew 0]

NOT SOPEL!!! ive seen him play long enough in vancouver and he is horrible!!!!! he is great at makin passes to the other team, and good at screwing up all the time!!

plus he has greasy long hair

[Doctor G 0]

To me Sopel seemed to lose a step last year and had to many errors in his own zone. He had such promise a few years ago, I wonder what happen? So I elect Downey by default. But I don't think either will be here in October. Although I do like Downey's game: he hustles, plays a solid defense, and is actually a pretty good forechecker. He isn't a liability as some people think. Now everyone knows he isn't going to score, but there could be a place for him on this team. I just don't think the coaches will take a chance on him, unless they use him like Montreal did. Put him in a few games here and there.

[Draperfan 104]

Downey,Sopel sucks ive seen him enough as a Canuck........he gave the puck away over there too.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Sopel, here is why.

Regardless of who anyone thinks should be paired with Lidstrom, the Wings still have a lot of wholes to fill on the blueline. If the brass had confidence is the group of dman currently under contract (with the Wings or GR) they wouldn't have invited Sopel and Cullimore to camp.

So what's this mean? Take a serious look at the Wings d corp. All indications are that Babcock doesn't want to pair up Lidstrom and Rafalski. If this is the case, the Wings are still in search for two guys to step into the 2 and 4 slot on d.

Sopel would fit nicely in the 4 slot. He isn't anything special, but he does possess a cannon of a shot and he moves the puck well.

Cullimore would fit in the number 2 slot. He would be a nice substitute for Markov.

The fact that the brass is so high on Kronwall, I believe that he will fill the number 4 slot. With Cheli and Lebda filling out the final pairing, there isn't room for both Sopel and Cullimore on the roster. Especially when you look at Lilja, and potentiall Quincey.

I feel that Cullimore will get the pink slip as Sopel is a better fit to play Detroit's puck control style of play.

[Elshupacabra 0]

I've got to go with Downey I think, mainly because of his willingness to scrap and stand up for his teammates.

Edited September 20, 2007 by Elshupacabra

[Saran 1]

NOT SOPEL!!! ive seen him play long enough in vancouver and he is horrible!!!!! he is great at makin passes to the other team, and good at screwing up all the time!!

plus he has greasy long hair

haha my exact feelings. I'm from BC so Canucks games are always on and what not and yeah, he sucks a lot and is a huge defense liability. I mean if he's a reject Canuck, why would we want him

[norrisnick 1]

If it were one of those "if someone holds a gun to your head..." situations, I think I'd take the bullet.

[sticknmove 0]

YA WHAT ARE YOU THINKING WE COULD HAVE MEECH UP INSTEAD!!!!!!!

ps: I am starting a little pool if you want to call it that, $5 dollars entry and you have to pick the name of the first red wing who will get blown the f*ck up (franzen, lebda, cleary, and so on you guys know) by a cheap hit. WHOSE IN

[norrisnick 1]

YA WHAT ARE YOU THINKING WE COULD HAVE MEECH UP INSTEAD!!!!!!!

ps: I am starting a little pool if you want to call it that, $5 dollars entry and you have to pick the name of the first red wing who will get blown the f*ck up (franzen, lebda, cleary, and so on you guys know) by a cheap hit. WHOSE IN

Over Sopel? Gladly. They'll both make mistakes, but with Meechie you've got a shot that he'll learn from it. Sopel is beyond developing into a steady defenseman.

Easy money is on Lebda. Bernie gets trainwrecked like it's going out of style.

ps: We could have a 4th line consisting of Boogaard, Laraque, and McGrattan and cheap hits would still happen. Why you ask? Because the kinds of guys that dish out cheap hits don't give a s*** whether you're carrying a goon or not. They never have and never will.

[sticknmove 0]

"We could have a 4th line consisting of Boogaard, Laraque, and McGrattan and cheap hits would still happen. Why you ask? Because the kinds of guys that dish out cheap hits don't give a s*** whether you're carrying a goon or not. They never have and never will."

I beg to differ:

"Here's an exerp from a Dave Schultz interview, the "Hammer" was part of the 2 time stanley cup Champion Philadelphia Flyers in the 70's. The whole Broad Street Bully thing, anyways;

***DISCLOSURE: What do enforcers enforce?

SCHULTZ: Well they basically protect their teammates.

DISCLOSURE: Explain to me when you played. You are out on the ice, or you’re on the bench, and you see a player take a shot at one of the stars on your team. What goes through your mind when you see that happen on the ice?

SCHULTZ: If that guy wants to do that kind of violent act, let him face the music. It’s called a fistfight. We’ve been doing this since the beginning of time. There is nothing wrong with a good ol’ fistfight … they knew I would be coming after them and they had to fight.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on, here is an exept from an interview with Stan Fischler, hockey historian and author of more than 100 books on the game;

***Let’s talk about the role of enforcers – what do the enforcers enforce?

The evolution of the enforcers is very simple – there was no such thing as an enforcer, or a goon, or whatever synonym you want for these hockey cops until the 60’s.

At the start of the 1960’s, the Montreal Canadiens were the best team in hockey. They won five cups in a row. Rocket Richard retired in 1960 after the fifth cup was won, and the Canadiens were a less tough team without the Rocket.

They went into the playoffs against the Chicago Blackhawks, who were a very tough team, and they beat the crap out of them physically. Jack Evans was one of the tough defenseman – he ran at Jean Belleveau, who was the lynchpin for the Canadiens, and lo and behold, the Blackhawks beat them and went on to win the Stanley Cup.

So other teams looked at the Blackhawks and said ‘hey this team won, they play tough hockey’. So they started to ape the champion. And the manager of the Montreal Canadiens saw his guy, Jean Belleveau, get beat up and said ‘well, I got to get myself a tough guy’.

So John Ferguson, playing for Cleveland – best fighter in the American Hockey League – he gets John Ferguson – his job is to protect Belleveau, Jeffrey and the other stylists.

What do you think Ferguson does? The first game the Canadians play – they are playing the Boston Bruins, the big bad Bruins. Ted Green is their tough guy – he does a beeline, beats the crap out of Green, and all of a sudden this guy has a job. He could also play hockey and at the same time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINUED

***Some people say fighting is part of hockey – why is fighting part of hockey?

Fighting is part of hockey because hockey is the most difficult game to officiate. It always has been. You’ve got guys colliding all the time and the referee can’t see everything. So if one guy pops the other one in the mouth and the ref doesn’t see it – no penalty is called. And that’s why fights start. It’s just like if you are walking down the street and some guy whacks you – you’re going to whack him back if there is no cop there. You’re not going to say – ‘oh thank you very much for whacking me’. You’re going to whack him and say ‘what the hell is this? Are you hitting me? Are you crazy?’ That’s what happens in hockey all the time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**An section from a piece written by Bill Meltzer on hockey and the role a true "enforcer" plays and just how important it is to a teams chemistry.

"I don't think most opponents (at least not good teams) have ever been intimidated merely by the presence of anyone else's enforcer-- even the likes of Bob Probert.

But having a good enforcer makes the other team know they'll be held accountable for their actions. The enforcer helps establish a foundation for team toughness; much as having a good second line center establishes a foundation for scoring depth. That's absolutely crucial, because unless there's a team-wide commitment to sticking up for one another, you could have the nastiest, toughest enforcer in the league and it still won't make any difference."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So back to what I was saying earlier, the roll of an enforcer is a incredibly important one when putting together a hockey team. And even though we dont have Probert anymore, we would still benefit greatly from having a policeman watching our guys backs, and while we are talking about Probert let me take this oppertunity to point out he was arguably the greatest "enforcer" the game of hockey has ever seen, so no, Downey isnt, and Norton didnt fill his shoes to the extent some of you expected, but they are doing their jobs just like Dats and Lidstrom and they do it well so at least respect them and what they bring to a team. Soooooo, that is that, I am off to get a MEECH tattoo on my chest, GOD HE IS GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR!

lol, im just kidding, i'm out, hope you all have a good day!

[OsGOD 3]

Which is more likely to drop the gloves on a regular basis to add some excitement and entertainment value to the overpriced tickets, beer and pizzza?

If its not Sopel he can be gone with his bad ass self... we are fine on the defensive side.

[FinRedWing 172]

Which is more likely to drop the gloves on a regular basis to add some excitement and entertainment value to the overpriced tickets, beer and pizzza?

If its not Sopel he can be gone with his bad ass self... we are fine on the defensive side.

What happened to your dream of Wings having 20 defensemen?

[OsGOD 3]

What happened to your dream of Wings having 20 defensemen?

well very true... i am swaying from my dream a bit.... but if sopel will drop em on a regular basis then he would fit in my dream.

[Vancouver Wings Fan 0]

haha my exact feelings. I'm from BC so Canucks games are always on and what not and yeah, he sucks a lot and is a huge defense liability. I mean if he's a reject Canuck, why would we want him

Seems all Wings fans living here in BC think the same! Sopel sucks and was not wanted on a team like the Canucks after being released from LA.......The Wings don't need him!

If Downey is the only availible answer for a perceived "enforcer" then bring him in...I'd still like to see a more threatening enforcer....the kind that really doesn't need to do much because the threat is enough....

[sticknmove 0]

"If Downey is the only availible answer for a perceived "enforcer" then bring him in...I'd still like to see a more threatening enforce"

I definitly hear what you are saying, and you make a good point. But i mean, Holland and enforcers.....Come on, when I heard Downeys name attached with "possible spot" I almost pissed my pants. I guess all i am saying is Downey is as enforcer as we are going to get going to get around here as long as present mgmt is around, and I am quite content with it that way. He does lose some fights I will give you that, but t that will happen, losing some fights, when you're job is policing a NHL squad night after night......

Actually f*ck it, lets buy out Laraque.

Edited September 20, 2007 by sticknmove

[norrisnick 1]

"We could have a 4th line consisting of Boogaard, Laraque, and McGrattan and cheap hits would still happen. Why you ask? Because the kinds of guys that dish out cheap hits don't give a s*** whether you're carrying a goon or not. They never have and never will."

I beg to differ:

"Here's an exerp from a Dave Schultz interview, the "Hammer" was part of the 2 time stanley cup Champion Philadelphia Flyers in the 70's. The whole Broad Street Bully thing, anyways;

***DISCLOSURE: What do enforcers enforce?

SCHULTZ: Well they basically protect their teammates.

DISCLOSURE: Explain to me when you played. You are out on the ice, or you’re on the bench, and you see a player take a shot at one of the stars on your team. What goes through your mind when you see that happen on the ice?

SCHULTZ: If that guy wants to do that kind of violent act, let him face the music. It’s called a fistfight. We’ve been doing this since the beginning of time. There is nothing wrong with a good ol’ fistfight … they knew I would be coming after them and they had to fight.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on, here is an exept from an interview with Stan Fischler, hockey historian and author of more than 100 books on the game;

***Let’s talk about the role of enforcers – what do the enforcers enforce?

The evolution of the enforcers is very simple – there was no such thing as an enforcer, or a goon, or whatever synonym you want for these hockey cops until the 60’s.

At the start of the 1960’s, the Montreal Canadiens were the best team in hockey. They won five cups in a row. Rocket Richard retired in 1960 after the fifth cup was won, and the Canadiens were a less tough team without the Rocket.

They went into the playoffs against the Chicago Blackhawks, who were a very tough team, and they beat the crap out of them physically. Jack Evans was one of the tough defenseman – he ran at Jean Belleveau, who was the lynchpin for the Canadiens, and lo and behold, the Blackhawks beat them and went on to win the Stanley Cup.

So other teams looked at the Blackhawks and said ‘hey this team won, they play tough hockey’. So they started to ape the champion. And the manager of the Montreal Canadiens saw his guy, Jean Belleveau, get beat up and said ‘well, I got to get myself a tough guy’.

So John Ferguson, playing for Cleveland – best fighter in the American Hockey League – he gets John Ferguson – his job is to protect Belleveau, Jeffrey and the other stylists.

What do you think Ferguson does? The first game the Canadians play – they are playing the Boston Bruins, the big bad Bruins. Ted Green is their tough guy – he does a beeline, beats the crap out of Green, and all of a sudden this guy has a job. He could also play hockey and at the same time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINUED

***Some people say fighting is part of hockey – why is fighting part of hockey?

Fighting is part of hockey because hockey is the most difficult game to officiate. It always has been. You’ve got guys colliding all the time and the referee can’t see everything. So if one guy pops the other one in the mouth and the ref doesn’t see it – no penalty is called. And that’s why fights start. It’s just like if you are walking down the street and some guy whacks you – you’re going to whack him back if there is no cop there. You’re not going to say – ‘oh thank you very much for whacking me’. You’re going to whack him and say ‘what the hell is this? Are you hitting me? Are you crazy?’ That’s what happens in hockey all the time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**An section from a piece written by Bill Meltzer on hockey and the role a true "enforcer" plays and just how important it is to a teams chemistry.

"I don't think most opponents (at least not good teams) have ever been intimidated merely by the presence of anyone else's enforcer-- even the likes of Bob Probert.

But having a good enforcer makes the other team know they'll be held accountable for their actions. The enforcer helps establish a foundation for team toughness; much as having a good second line center establishes a foundation for scoring depth. That's absolutely crucial, because unless there's a team-wide commitment to sticking up for one another, you could have the nastiest, toughest enforcer in the league and it still won't make any difference."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So back to what I was saying earlier, the roll of an enforcer is a incredibly important one when putting together a hockey team. And even though we dont have Probert anymore, we would still benefit greatly from having a policeman watching our guys backs, and while we are talking about Probert let me take this oppertunity to point out he was arguably the greatest "enforcer" the game of hockey has ever seen, so no, Downey isnt, and Norton didnt fill his shoes to the extent some of you expected, but they are doing their jobs just like Dats and Lidstrom and they do it well so at least respect them and what they bring to a team. Soooooo, that is that, I am off to get a MEECH tattoo on my chest, GOD HE IS GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR!

lol, im just kidding, i'm out, hope you all have a good day!

You beg to differ, but you clearly didn't understand what I wrote. And really, the quotes you laid out there don't really counter what I wrote either.

Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react. And reacting won't matter either, because as I stated in my post the types of guys that go out there running anyone and everyone and don't care whether they do so within the bounds of the rule book, also don't care whether there is an enforcer on the other side.

A question for you. A couple days ago we played the Wild. Boogaard took a massive run at Downey well behind the play and had he caught him flush likely would have taken his head off (luckily Booger is a tad slow and even Downey is quicker). What pray tell would it take to keep Boogaard honest? Giving Cheli a concealed carry license so he can take his shifts packing a .45? Boogaard obviously doesn't care who is out there. The only thing a fight would do is keep him off the ice for 5 minutes, but as it stands his own coach would do that anyway as he only takes 2 shifts a period or so.

Or Avery? He doesn't care. Ruutu? Doesn't care. Tootoo? Doesn't care. Marchment never cared. Lemieux never cared. Ulf never cared. Etc... The guys that teams need to worry about, either don't mind fighting or will duck fights anyway.

[sticknmove 0]

"Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react."

You cannot seriously tell me you do not think that enforcers have any power of deterence whatsoever. I know they cant, and dont deter everything, or even a majority of it, but you would have to be out of your mind to believe they have no preventative influence whatsoever.

[norrisnick 1]

"Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react."

You cannot seriously tell me you do not think that enforcers have any power of deterence whatsoever. I know they cant, and dont deter everything, or even a majority of it, but you would have to be out of your mind to believe they have no preventative influence whatsoever.

Not enough to validate the existence of a fighter that can't play the game of hockey. Now if a guy can take a regular shift, not be a defensive nightmare, and not be afraid of the puck by all means sign and use the guy. Provided of course he's a better hockey player than at least one of the other 18 skaters we've got slated for the active roster.

[Barnes52 0]

we're talking about 4th line minutes here guys. If Downey can play his 8-10 minutes a night, perhaps alternate with Ellis, why not? 14 forwards/7 defensmen. The 2 extra are Eliis and Downey, buh-bye Grigs

[norrisnick 1]

we're talking about 4th line minutes here guys. If Downey can play his 8-10 minutes a night, perhaps alternate with Ellis, why not? 14 forwards/7 defensmen. The 2 extra are Eliis and Downey, buh-bye Grigs

Who sits for Ellis and Downey? Maltby, Drake, or Kopecky? The answer? No one. So if they don't play, they're beyond worthless, so you might as well hang on to Igor and whip him into shape. Losing Grigorenko back to Russia so Aaron F'n Downey can sit in the stands would be monumentally stupid.

[sticknmove 0]

Norris you seem to be oblivious to the fact that enforcers are going to be as agile and outskill a 1st, or 2nd liner. That is not what they bring to the table, they specialize in another part of the game, the physical side, which includes limited minutes and a lot of the time a scrap or two which wether you like to admit it or not, is a HUGE element in North American Hockey. So for you to proclaim this and that about the finesse side of the game from a teams respected tough guy is equivlent to me saing Datsuk has no business on this team b/c he cant square off with Colton Orr and hold his own. To much of one thing is never good, that is a universal rule that rings true a high majority of the time. A great team needs all the elements of the game, in a balance that allows them to dominate every aspect.

[eva unit zero 271]

"We could have a 4th line consisting of Boogaard, Laraque, and McGrattan and cheap hits would still happen. Why you ask? Because the kinds of guys that dish out cheap hits don't give a s*** whether you're carrying a goon or not. They never have and never will."

I beg to differ:

"Here's an exerp from a Dave Schultz interview, the "Hammer" was part of the 2 time stanley cup Champion Philadelphia Flyers in the 70's. The whole Broad Street Bully thing, anyways;

***DISCLOSURE: What do enforcers enforce?

SCHULTZ: Well they basically protect their teammates.

DISCLOSURE: Explain to me when you played. You are out on the ice, or you’re on the bench, and you see a player take a shot at one of the stars on your team. What goes through your mind when you see that happen on the ice?

SCHULTZ: If that guy wants to do that kind of violent act, let him face the music. It’s called a fistfight. We’ve been doing this since the beginning of time. There is nothing wrong with a good ol’ fistfight … they knew I would be coming after them and they had to fight.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on, here is an exept from an interview with Stan Fischler, hockey historian and author of more than 100 books on the game;

***Let’s talk about the role of enforcers • what do the enforcers enforce?

The evolution of the enforcers is very simple • there was no such thing as an enforcer, or a goon, or whatever synonym you want for these hockey cops until the 60’s.

At the start of the 1960’s, the Montreal Canadiens were the best team in hockey. They won five cups in a row. Rocket Richard retired in 1960 after the fifth cup was won, and the Canadiens were a less tough team without the Rocket.

They went into the playoffs against the Chicago Blackhawks, who were a very tough team, and they beat the crap out of them physically. Jack Evans was one of the tough defenseman • he ran at Jean Belleveau, who was the lynchpin for the Canadiens, and lo and behold, the Blackhawks beat them and went on to win the Stanley Cup.

So other teams looked at the Blackhawks and said ‘hey this team won, they play tough hockey’. So they started to ape the champion. And the manager of the Montreal Canadiens saw his guy, Jean Belleveau, get beat up and said ‘well, I got to get myself a tough guy’.

So John Ferguson, playing for Cleveland • best fighter in the American Hockey League • he gets John Ferguson • his job is to protect Belleveau, Jeffrey and the other stylists.

What do you think Ferguson does? The first game the Canadians play • they are playing the Boston Bruins, the big bad Bruins. Ted Green is their tough guy • he does a beeline, beats the crap out of Green, and all of a sudden this guy has a job. He could also play hockey and at the same time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONTINUED

***Some people say fighting is part of hockey • why is fighting part of hockey?

Fighting is part of hockey because hockey is the most difficult game to officiate. It always has been. You’ve got guys colliding all the time and the referee can’t see everything. So if one guy pops the other one in the mouth and the ref doesn’t see it • no penalty is called. And that’s why fights start. It’s just like if you are walking down the street and some guy whacks you • you’re going to whack him back if there is no cop there. You’re not going to say • ‘oh thank you very much for whacking me’. You’re going to whack him and say ‘what the hell is this? Are you hitting me? Are you crazy?’ That’s what happens in hockey all the time.***

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**An section from a piece written by Bill Meltzer on hockey and the role a true "enforcer" plays and just how important it is to a teams chemistry.

"I don't think most opponents (at least not good teams) have ever been intimidated merely by the presence of anyone else's enforcer-- even the likes of Bob Probert.

But having a good enforcer makes the other team know they'll be held accountable for their actions. The enforcer helps establish a foundation for team toughness; much as having a good second line center establishes a foundation for scoring depth. That's absolutely crucial, because unless there's a team-wide commitment to sticking up for one another, you could have the nastiest, toughest enforcer in the league and it still won't make any difference."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So back to what I was saying earlier, the roll of an enforcer is a incredibly important one when putting together a hockey team. And even though we dont have Probert anymore, we would still benefit greatly from having a policeman watching our guys backs, and while we are talking about Probert let me take this oppertunity to point out he was arguably the greatest "enforcer" the game of hockey has ever seen, so no, Downey isnt, and Norton didnt fill his shoes to the extent some of you expected, but they are doing their jobs just like Dats and Lidstrom and they do it well so at least respect them and what they bring to a team. Soooooo, that is that, I am off to get a MEECH tattoo on my chest, GOD HE IS GOING TO BE A SUPERSTAR!

lol, im just kidding, i'm out, hope you all have a good day!

Ferguson scored 145 goals in 500 games, including a 29 goal season. Probert's best season was also a 29-goal year. Downey will likely score fewer than 29 goals total when his career is over. Probert and Ferguson were far better PLAYERS than Downey, just from a skil standpoint. Not to mention that they were significantly better FIGHTERS as well. Downey offers nothing to justify his presence on the team over a Kopecky, Drake, Maltby, Grigorenko, etc.

Norris you seem to be oblivious to the fact that enforcers are going to be as agile and outskill a 1st, or 2nd liner. That is not what they bring to the table, they specialize in another part of the game, the physical side, which includes limited minutes and a lot of the time a scrap or two which wether you like to admit it or not, is a HUGE element in North American Hockey. So for you to proclaim this and that about the finesse side of the game from a teams respected tough guy is equivlent to me saing Datsuk has no business on this team b/c he cant square off with Colton Orr and hold his own. To much of one thing is never good, that is a universal rule that rings true a high majority of the time. A great team needs all the elements of the game, in a balance that allows them to dominate every aspect.

A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on the Wings. It's these guys who CAN'T play hockey at the NHL level and are only marginal fighters (Downey, Norton, Bootland) that people are going ga-ga over that is getting the 'hell no' response from people like myself and NN.