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FnuLaird

Downey or Sopel?

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personally I like Neil Clark better than any of them. He's a better skater, smarter and younger. Why shouldn't the Wings consider him? By the way, why isn't anyone ragging on why Hartigan is here? At least Downey/Clark can fight, Hartigan couldn't even break the Blue Jackets lineup.

If Mark Hartigan makes this team, i'll be fuming. He is one of those utterly useless guys like Matt Hussey...he'd play occasionally and do absolutely nothing. What the hell is the point of having someone like that...at least you know a Clark/Downey is going to contribute in some aspect when inserted. As for Clark over Downey,...I couldnt say because i know zippo about him. But im definitely not gung ho over Downey, so id have no problem with Clark making it, knowing that he's a fighter.

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I'll tell you Gordie, I didn't think it would happen but this discussion has definitely changed my opinion of Downey. I think he should make the starting 12. Of course who I have him replacing no one else will agree and I will get more grief for that. But either way I now see a reason for him to be on the roster, and actually would be greatly pleased if it happened.

It is amazing esteef, this was a really good thread like you said and it actually got me to change my opinion. And not because some one yelled at me to think differently, but because the thought provoking discussion got me there.

:clap: As it should be brotha!

Cheers!

esteef

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How?

Because maybe then Brad Stuart wouldn't have found a reason to go completely out of his way to injure Zetterberg, knowing someone would go after him if he did.

As for the Grigorenko part, I'm going to shamelessly steal someone else's sentiments on that. You do not come back from what he came back from by being lazy. He wasn't as prepared as he should have been (likely because he couldn't make it to the conditioning camp during the summer because of visa issues, which are the team's responsibility, not the player's), but it isn't unreasonable to chalk that up to the differences between the RSL and NHL. Two completely different animals even though they both involve ice and puck.

That injury was how many years ago now?

...and how exactly is the RSL so different from the NHL? You act like it's a s*** league with players who shouldn't even play in the NHL, when it isn't. It's probably the second best league in the world, and there is no reason to explain Grigorenko's condition when he played for a decent league.

If he had been playing in some 3rd tier league in Sweden or something, then it might be able to slide. But I seriously don't see how playing in the RSL makes him out of shape, and it being a good excuse. Malkin and Ovechkin certainly didn't come to the NHL out of shape, nor do half the other Russians who come over here to play.

I don't understand why people continue to make excuses for Grigorenko. He's been downright terrible this entire training camp. Just because someone has "potential" shouldn't mean they get that they get to slide on all their other problems, and play on the team anyways. If that's the case, then I hear Alexandre Daigle and Alexei Yashin might still be interested in playing as well.

If Mark Hartigan makes this team, i'll be fuming. He is one of those utterly useless guys like Matt Hussey...he'd play occasionally and do absolutely nothing. What the hell is the point of having someone like that...at least you know a Clark/Downey is going to contribute in some aspect when inserted. As for Clark over Downey,...I couldnt say because i know zippo about him. But im definitely not gung ho over Downey, so id have no problem with Clark making it, knowing that he's a fighter.

Exactly what I've been saying. Yet, people strangely think Hartigan will be a better fit for this team. From a playing standpoint, he probably is: he's small and doesn't fight. That doesn't mean that anyone should even want him though, since he doesn't do anything. At least Downey is willing to fight people, and Matt Ellis is a decent checking line forward with scoring potential.

But... don't be too shocked if Hartigan does make the team, Lou. He's one of those Ken Holland type players: small centers who don't fight. I'm just surprised he's not Swedish, if you know what I mean.

Edited by Kp-Wings

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And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what? That doesn't change the fact that I disagree with hanging on to a player that can't play, but he can fight (sorta). It doesn't help anything. Particularly on a team like the Wings. Downey will not make the Wings the Broadstreet Bullies. Downey will not bring us back to the days when Probert and Joey were prowling around. Nor even the '97 team that featured truly multi-dimensional tough players like Konstantinov, Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Kocur, Pushor, etc... The Wings are and will continue to be for the forseeable future, a skill based, defensively sound, puck possession team. Period. Adding a scrub on the 4th line (or the press box which is where Downey would be anyway), will not change anything.

You just don't get it. I've been there, and it DOES change things. Perhaps not in the way that you think it does though, I can see that it's not going to be easy to explain it to you either due to your admitted lack of a relevant frame of reference for comparison, but I will give it a go cause you post here A LOT and you need to expand your thinking if you're going to be trying out for the amateur journalist award with your million posts a month.

It really has NOTHING to do with how the other team perceives the Wings with Downey/Norton/Kocur/Any-Guy-With-Balls that the wings put on the roster; it's all about how the Wings perceive themselves. I played with a tremendously talented winger in junior, a Russian fella who made the NHL, lotsa hype, great Dub' career, fell flat on his face in the show. He benifited from a few "scrubs" as you call them, who made my buddy feel like he was 6'4" and 240lbs, which translated into confidence, which translated into goals and assists for him, and wins for us. He knew we had his back, and that we would do anything for him if it helped us to win a game. He liked playing with us, we made him feel good about himself, we made him laugh in the dressing room, we went out of our way to make him feel comfortable in the locker room, on the ice, in the bars, and in the city we lived in, heck we even found dates for him in the bars ahead of time and convinced him he was a "pickup artist", lol. Hockey is 50% ability and 50% mental, always has been and always will be, most other things in life are the same way too. Guys that go from 50 goal scorers to 15 goal scorers didn't suddenly "lose" their ability, they lost their confidence. It's certainly not always due to lack of an enforcer though. I knew guys who "lost it" due to chics, family s***, money, drugs, and a whole bunch of other really rotten crap that nobody seems to ever consider can happen to a hockey player.

The best way I can describe how a guy like Downey can affect other players on the Wings is this: (and i recommend you try it if not for your own personal growth then just for fun).

1. Find the nastiest, sleaziest, roughest bar in the closest city you live by.

2. Walk inside by yourself and order a double jack

3. Pick out the hottest chic and approach her and her entourage with the intent of hitting on her

4. Stop four feet from her and assess how you feel. Scared? Nervous? You sure as s*** are.

Now do the same thing in that same bar the next weekend, only this time take the biggest, meanest, toughest friend you've got along with you and ask him to walk behind you as you approach Ms. Hottie. Stop four feet from her again after the double jack; look behind you at your buddy who has got your back, asses how you're feeling this time. As you notice the change in your confidence level from the first time you tried it, think of how Dats and Z and Flip would feel if someone had THEIR back.

It's not about preventing cheapshots or taking on the other teams toughest player or convincing the other team of ANYTHING. It's about getting the most out of your own players and doing everything you can to make sure they don't lose their confidence or get nervous on the ice. I know some guys who know some guys, and they tell me the boys who were legendary at this were guys like Domi, Twist, D-Mac, Probie, Semenko and the guy that everyone seems to agree on as the king of confidence building - Clark Gillies (NYI). The word on him is that nobody ever had to tell him how to take care of the talent, on and off the ice, that he was so charismatic that guys were just naturally drawn to him and followed his lead into battle. According to one Islander who coached after his playing career in my home town, Clark held that team together like crazy glue, took the rooks under his wing and told them to fear nothing and that he had their back from the day they walked in the door. Oh, by the way, I'm pretty sure they won some cups with him along the way too. He's still best of friends with Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier to this day.

Now I'm not saying we can turn Downey into Gillies (who could also play btw), but a guy like Downey who knows the role and has got our backs is worth a roster spot and 750,000 any day of the week.

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Because maybe then Brad Stuart wouldn't have found a reason to go completely out of his way to injure Zetterberg, knowing someone would go after him if he did.

That crosscheck is a play Chelios has made 20 times a game for 20+ years now. It sucks that Z tweaked his back, but that is not something Stuart would have thought twice about. Even if we had a Boogaard out there (not that he would have been on the ice anyway).

That injury was how many years ago now?

Four. But it doesn't really change anything. If Igor were lazy would he have fought his way back to even this point?

...and how exactly is the RSL so different from the NHL? You act like it's a s*** league with players who shouldn't even play in the NHL, when it isn't. It's probably the second best league in the world, and there is no reason to explain Grigorenko's condition when he played for a decent league.

If he had been playing in some 3rd tier league in Sweden or something, then it might be able to slide. But I seriously don't see how playing in the RSL makes him out of shape, and it being a good excuse. Malkin and Ovechkin certainly didn't come to the NHL out of shape, nor do half the other Russians who come over here to play.

I don't understand why people continue to make excuses for Grigorenko. He's been downright terrible this entire training camp. Just because someone has "potential" shouldn't mean they get that they get to slide on all their other problems, and play on the team anyways. If that's the case, then I hear Alexandre Daigle and Alexei Yashin might still be interested in playing as well.

The RSL is a FAR slower, far more defensive, far more deliberate league. Longer slower shifts with more tactical side to side passing than the more north-south NHL game. Here you go balls to the wall for 30-45 seconds then get off the ice. Not so in Russia or most other European leagues. If you've been conditioned to pace yourself, you're gonna look like s*** in a situation where you have to give it 110% for a minute every couple minutes or so. Igor wasn't prepared for it. That's on him. BUT, had the Wings had his visa in order he would have figured that out during the summer rather than during training camp and perhaps this wouldn't be an issue. Unless he really were lazy (which I doubt).

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"And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what?"

Who knows, you would though realize that enforcers in hockey are critical to a teams chemistry and overall success.

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You just don't get it. I've been there, and it DOES change things. Perhaps not in the way that you think it does though, I can see that it's not going to be easy to explain it to you either due to your admitted lack of a relevant frame of reference for comparison, but I will give it a go cause you post here A LOT and you need to expand your thinking if you're going to be trying out for the amateur journalist award with your million posts a month.

It really has NOTHING to do with how the other team perceives the Wings with Downey/Norton/Kocur/Any-Guy-With-Balls that the wings put on the roster; it's all about how the Wings perceive themselves. I played with a tremendously talented winger in junior, a Russian fella who made the NHL, lotsa hype, great Dub' career, fell flat on his face in the show. He benifited from a few "scrubs" as you call them, who made my buddy feel like he was 6'4" and 240lbs, which translated into confidence, which translated into goals and assists for him, and wins for us. He knew we had his back, and that we would do anything for him if it helped us to win a game. He liked playing with us, we made him feel good about himself, we made him laugh in the dressing room, we went out of our way to make him feel comfortable in the locker room, on the ice, in the bars, and in the city we lived in, heck we even found dates for him in the bars ahead of time and convinced him he was a "pickup artist", lol. Hockey is 50% ability and 50% mental, always has been and always will be, most other things in life are the same way too. Guys that go from 50 goal scorers to 15 goal scorers didn't suddenly "lose" their ability, they lost their confidence. It's certainly not always due to lack of an enforcer though. I knew guys who "lost it" due to chics, family s***, money, drugs, and a whole bunch of other really rotten crap that nobody seems to ever consider can happen to a hockey player.

The best way I can describe how a guy like Downey can affect other players on the Wings is this: (and i recommend you try it if not for your own personal growth then just for fun).

1. Find the nastiest, sleaziest, roughest bar in the closest city you live by.

2. Walk inside by yourself and order a double jack

3. Pick out the hottest chic and approach her and her entourage with the intent of hitting on her

4. Stop four feet from her and assess how you feel. Scared? Nervous? You sure as s*** are.

Now do the same thing in that same bar the next weekend, only this time take the biggest, meanest, toughest friend you've got along with you and ask him to walk behind you as you approach Ms. Hottie. Stop four feet from her again after the double jack; look behind you at your buddy who has got your back, asses how you're feeling this time. As you notice the change in your confidence level from the first time you tried it, think of how Dats and Z and Flip would feel if someone had THEIR back.

It's not about preventing cheapshots or taking on the other teams toughest player or convincing the other team of ANYTHING. It's about getting the most out of your own players and doing everything you can to make sure they don't lose their confidence or get nervous on the ice. I know some guys who know some guys, and they tell me the boys who were legendary at this were guys like Domi, Twist, D-Mac, Probie, Semenko and the guy that everyone seems to agree on as the king of confidence building - Clark Gillies (NYI). The word on him is that nobody ever had to tell him how to take care of the talent, on and off the ice, that he was so charismatic that guys were just naturally drawn to him and followed his lead into battle. According to one Islander who coached after his playing career in my home town, Clark held that team together like crazy glue, took the rooks under his wing and told them to fear nothing and that he had their back from the day they walked in the door. Oh, by the way, I'm pretty sure they won some cups with him along the way too. He's still best of friends with Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier to this day.

Now I'm not saying we can turn Downey into Gillies (who could also play btw), but a guy like Downey who knows the role and has got our backs is worth a roster spot and 750,000 any day of the week.

And Aaron Downey will make the Wings feel like the cock of the walk? Right.

And I don't get all these names you're bringing up. They could all PLAY. That's the entire point here. Probert was an all-star, Domi could skate liike a fiend, defend, and chip in offensively, Mac was a 15G 40P guy, Clark Gillies is a flippin' Hall of Famer. As for your hypothetical, having a big tough friend doesn't help if he's not behind you. Downey wouldn't be behind anyone as he wouldn't crack the roster.

I doubt there is anyone on these boards that hoped we'd get a bonafide Clark Gillies more than me. Or a prime coked out Probert. Hell, I'd settle for a prime McCarty. Who wouldn't want a legit heavyweight that could play and produce on your top scoring line?

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"And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what?"

Who knows, you would though realize that enforcers in hockey are critical to a teams chemistry and overall success.

I love your quote on fighting in your signature at the bottom. It is apparent you have played the game and gone to war in another team's barn before. If we could take every twit who wants to eliminate the "character glue guys" who stand up for their teamates and won't back down from anyone and stick them on the ice in Flin Flon for a few games of junior they would wise up and advocate signing a guy like Downey for sure. Till then we have to put up with the "Downey won't score many goals for us" half-witted bulls***.

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Exactly what I've been saying. Yet, people strangely think Hartigan will be a better fit for this team. From a playing standpoint, he probably is: he's small and doesn't fight. That doesn't mean that anyone should even want him though, since he doesn't do anything. At least Downey is willing to fight people, and Matt Ellis is a decent checking line forward with scoring potential.

But... don't be too shocked if Hartigan does make the team, Lou. He's one of those Ken Holland type players: small centers who don't fight. I'm just surprised he's not Swedish, if you know what I mean.

I love the "you have to be able to score" argument. Just how many goals do people think guys like Ellis or Hartigan would put up? 3 max? Hell Downey could probably get that! There would be a minimal difference in scoring. So why not give the spot to the guy that will hit and fight? Its so frustrating...

I wont be shocked at all if Hartigan makes the team though.

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And Aaron Downey will make the Wings feel like the cock of the walk? Right.

And I don't get all these names you're bringing up. They could all PLAY. That's the entire point here. Probert was an all-star, Domi could skate liike a fiend, defend, and chip in offensively, Mac was a 15G 40P guy, Clark Gillies is a flippin' Hall of Famer. As for your hypothetical, having a big tough friend doesn't help if he's not behind you. Downey wouldn't be behind anyone as he wouldn't crack the roster.

I doubt there is anyone on these boards that hoped we'd get a bonafide Clark Gillies more than me. Or a prime coked out Probert. Hell, I'd settle for a prime McCarty. Who wouldn't want a legit heavyweight that could play and produce on your top scoring line?

Frick you're dense on this subject. As of now we don't have ANYBODY like this on the team. Downey would at least be somebody, and if you look at his stats, he sure as hell didn't last all these years (7 or so) in the NHL due to his goals and assists. You don't think GM's and players from other teams talk to each other? If he wasn't good for SOMETHING he wouldn't have lasted one month in the world's best ******* hockey league. The "entire point here" is that Downey would be better than nothing; which is exactly what we have now. Why in God's green earth do you think Downey DID crack the roster on those other NHL teams he played for? It wasn't due to any 50 goal potential he showed in Junior, it was the 400PIM season in Providence. If he didn't know how to do his job and wasn't ready to accept limited ice time and not be a defensive liability, he's only -4 for entire career. We're not going to get Gillies, Probie, or McCarty between now and October. So do you really believe Dats and Z want NOBODY as opposed to Downey? You obviously didn't try the bar experiment I asked you to do or you still wouldn't be harping your point to death.

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I can't believe how many of you are buying Kenny Holland's bulls*** on this topic. Holland is a great GM that knows what it takes to keep a winning team together, but his handling of this enforcer business has been inexcusable for the last couple of years. It's embarassing to me as a Wings fan that all other teams have an enforcer, while we have a team that lets itself get pushed around.

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Frick you're dense on this subject. As of now we don't have ANYBODY like this on the team. Downey would at least be somebody, and if you look at his stats, he sure as hell didn't last all these years (7 or so) in the NHL due to his goals and assists. You don't think GM's and players from other teams talk to each other? If he wasn't good for SOMETHING he wouldn't have lasted one month in the world's best ******* hockey league. The "entire point here" is that Downey would be better than nothing; which is exactly what we have now. Why in God's green earth do you think Downey DID crack the roster on those other NHL teams he played for? It wasn't due to any 50 goal potential he showed in Junior, it was the 400PIM season in Providence. If he didn't know how to do his job and wasn't ready to accept limited ice time and not be a defensive liability, he's only -4 for entire career. We're not going to get Gillies, Probie, or McCarty between now and October. So do you really believe Dats and Z want NOBODY as opposed to Downey? You obviously didn't try the bar experiment I asked you to do or you still wouldn't be harping your point to death.

You still don't get it. Desperately clinging to a worthless player (he's averaged 26 games per season in his NHL "career" and there's a reason this is his 6 different team he's gone to for training camp in the last 8 years) because he vaguely resembles the type of player you want on the team isn't going to fix anything. Sure he keeps getting chances, but he never does anything with it to warrant keeping him. He's a borderline 4th liner. Good enough to get a look, but not good enough to stick. If he were at all worth hanging on to, he wouldn't bounce around like that, and he'd have more than 183 career games in 7 seasons.

Downey isn't any better than nobody because he can't and won't crack the roster. Like I addressed your bar experiment, it doesn't work because Downey won't be standing there behind anyone.

A fighter who can't play is completely worthless.

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A fighter who can't play is completely worthless.

Downey can play, he isnt a 1 way enforcer, the guy works hard and is a good skater. This isnt Brad Norton from last year.

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Downey can play, he isnt a 1 way enforcer, the guy works hard and is a good skater. This isnt Brad Norton from last year.

Whatever. A fighter who can't/won't/shouldn't/etc... play is completely worthless.

The Wings are a contending team. A guy like Downey is not going to be playing. If a guy isn't playing, I don't care if he's Rocky on skates. He's useless.

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Whatever. A fighter who can't/won't/shouldn't/etc... play is completely worthless.

The Wings are a contending team. A guy like Downey is not going to be playing. If a guy isn't playing, I don't care if he's Rocky on skates. He's useless.

The only reason he won't be playing is because Kenny Holland and fans like you don't want him to play. If he does play, then he'll make a difference out there by throwing some weight around.

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The only reason he won't be playing is because Kenny Holland and fans like you don't want him to play. If he does play, then he'll make a difference out there by throwing some weight around.

The reason he won't be playing is because he's not a better player than a single one of the at least 12 forwards in front of him. All he has to do is be the 12th best forward (offensively and/or defensively) and he'd win himself a contract and a roster spot. He's not. So he won't. If Kenny didn't want him to play, he wouldn't have invited him. Kenny gave him a shot. Downey didn't do enough with it.

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The reason he won't be playing is because he's not a better player than a single one of the at least 12 forwards in front of him. All he has to do is be the 12th best forward (offensively and/or defensively) and he'd win himself a contract and a roster spot. He's not. So he won't. If Kenny didn't want him to play, he wouldn't have invited him. Kenny gave him a shot. Downey didn't do enough with it.

You have reached a new high in post-counts today which are rife with your usual circular arguments. Corresponding with you is like trying to teach a 5 grade student Chinese by having them listen to it over and over again. No matter how many times you hear the reasoning, you will probably never understand it. You defend the examples of effective enforcers I brought up like Tony Twist and Dave Semenko by claiming that somehow they were worthy skill-wise to make their teams rather than admit what they're real purpose on the ice was. Semenko could barely skate. Twist's career high in goals in a season was "3". They were there to bring confidence to their teams. Were there better players in the Blues and Oilers training camps that were left off in favour of Twist and Semenko? Absolutely. If you think otherwise you clearly don't have a clue. I find most of your posts (all 1million of them) to be fairly intelligent and thoughtful, but on this issue my fellow Wing fan I must agree to disagree with you. Downey should get a roster spot for now. If someone with the "enforcer" makeup comes along that is a better all around player than Downey then you can reassign him or release him but till then he would make my opening roster for the Wings. Now that I think of it, a lot of your hockey opinions remind me of Bob Mckenzie. Roenick hit the nail on the head when it came to that windbag and it's too bad we won't see more of J.R. as an analyst this year. So, i'll quote Jeremy and leave it at that. "you'd understand what I'm talking about if you'd ever played the game".

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The reason he won't be playing is because he's not a better player than a single one of the at least 12 forwards in front of him. All he has to do is be the 12th best forward (offensively and/or defensively) and he'd win himself a contract and a roster spot. He's not. So he won't. If Kenny didn't want him to play, he wouldn't have invited him. Kenny gave him a shot. Downey didn't do enough with it.

News flash. I bet you that 90% of the enforcers in NHL history weren't better than 12 other forwards that played on their team. That didn't stop those teams from still dressing an enforcer. I guarantee you that we'll have players on our 4th line this year just like last year that can't produce anything offensively. We might as well have an enforcer to fill those slots. Kenny only invited him to see if Downey can be that magical enforcer that Kenny's looking for that can put up 20 goals and not pick up any minor penalties all season. However, I'm beginning to think that that is what everyone anti-enforcer person on LGW wants.

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You have reached a new high in post-counts today which are rife with your usual circular arguments. Corresponding with you is like trying to teach a 5 grade student Chinese by having them listen to it over and over again. No matter how many times you hear the reasoning, you will probably never understand it. You defend the examples of effective enforcers I brought up like Tony Twist and Dave Semenko by claiming that somehow they were worthy skill-wise to make their teams rather than admit what they're real purpose on the ice was. Semenko could barely skate. Twist's career high in goals in a season was "3". They were there to bring confidence to their teams. Were there better players in the Blues and Oilers training camps that were left off in favour of Twist and Semenko? Absolutely. If you think otherwise you clearly don't have a clue. I find most of your posts (all 1million of them) to be fairly intelligent and thoughtful, but on this issue my fellow Wing fan I must agree to disagree with you. Downey should get a roster spot for now. If someone with the "enforcer" makeup comes along that is a better all around player than Downey then you can reassign him or release him but till then he would make my opening roster for the Wings. Now that I think of it, a lot of your hockey opinions remind me of Bob Mckenzie. Roenick hit the nail on the head when it came to that windbag and it's too bad we won't see more of J.R. as an analyst this year. So, i'll quote Jeremy and leave it at that. "you'd understand what I'm talking about if you'd ever played the game".

There is nothing more ridiculous than the tired "you never played, you don't know what you're talking about". There are countless great hockey minds out there that never played a shift of meaningful hockey. I'm not putting myself up there as one of them, nor will I ever claim to be up there, but I also can't play an instrument or hold a note, but I know good music when I hear it. And for the record, JR will NEVER be as respected as Bob McKenzie should he continue to pursue some sort of tv analyst job when his playing career is over. JR has media appeal because he speaks before he thinks. He's comic relief. That's it.

I never defended Twist or Semenko. And even if I did, are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that Aaron Downey could in any way do what those two did? Not to mention that the late-80s/early-90s are dramatically different than the game today. Teams for the most part aren't wasting roster spots on guys that can't contribute on either end of the ice.

But at the end of all that, look at who it is you're trying to defend here. Aaron Downey. He's not half the fighter Twister was and even Twister was a part-time player at best. The year before it was Brad Norton. Before that it was Bootland. Before that it was Ryan Barnes. Etc... I realize you guys are frustrated with the path the Wings are taking, but clinging to these 3rd rate enforcers as if they're our only hope for success is complete nonsense. They won't change the fabric of the team. They won't put us over the hump. Because they aren't good enough. Not even at what they're best at.

News flash. I bet you that 90% of the enforcers in NHL history weren't better than 12 other forwards that played on their team. That didn't stop those teams from still dressing an enforcer. I guarantee you that we'll have players on our 4th line this year just like last year that can't produce anything offensively. We might as well have an enforcer to fill those slots. Kenny only invited him to see if Downey can be that magical enforcer that Kenny's looking for that can put up 20 goals and not pick up any minor penalties all season. However, I'm beginning to think that that is what everyone anti-enforcer person on LGW wants.

And I bet you 90% of the enforcers in NHL history weren't on successful teams either.

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"And I bet you 90% of the enforcers in NHL history weren't on successful teams either."

Haha, I cant even get upset anymore I just have to laugh. You are absolutely clueless. Name me 1 stanley cup winning team that did not carry an enforcer of some magnitude. Now re-read the question b/c I really dont want to waste time answering one of your sideways arguments. Heck, you know what, you wont be able to find one stanley cup FINALIST who carried no enforcer (wether he be middle or heavyweight) all year. Ill be waiting.

PS- the argument of not playing hockey does not hold true all the time, however in this circumstance it is a very good argument, why? Because it explains your inability to grasp certain aspects of the game. Now come back with snide comments, sideways arguments or whatever logic you want.

Edited by sticknmove

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PS- the argument of not playing hockey does not hold true all the time, however in this circumstance it is a very good argument, why? Because it explains your inability to grasp certain aspects of the game. Now come back with snide comments, sideways arguments or whatever logic you want.

As I said in another post; anyone who's ever laced them up (aka played ice hockey @ ANY level) will understand the need for fighting, & for someone whom is capable of doing so.

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"And I bet you 90% of the enforcers in NHL history weren't on successful teams either."

Haha, I cant even get upset anymore I just have to laugh. You are absolutely clueless. Name me 1 stanley cup winning team that did not carry an enforcer of some magnitude. Now re-read the question b/c I really dont want to waste time answering one of your sideways arguments. Heck, you know what, you wont be able to find one stanley cup FINALIST who carried no enforcer (wether he be middle or heavyweight) all year. Ill be waiting.

PS- the argument of not playing hockey does not hold true all the time, however in this circumstance it is a very good argument, why? Because it explains your inability to grasp certain aspects of the game. Now come back with snide comments, sideways arguments or whatever logic you want.

Short memory span? The '06 Hurricanes had no enforcer. Nor did any one of their regulars fight even more than a couple times. And I hope you realize for every cup winning team, there is a league full of teams that didn't win it all. That said, it was mostly stated to toss another meaningless and wholly unsupported statistic back into the fray.

PS to your PS - funny how this issue qualifies for the old "you haven't played, your opinion doesn't matter" adage. it's a completely meaningless stand to take. By that very same token I could state that none of you have ever played at the NHL level so clearly your viewpoints are flawed. You can't compare a beer league game to the highest level possible. But that would be a stupid argument to make. As is the one you guys are making. It's a cop out, plain and simple. You're unable to make your point without sticking your head in the sand. Defend the point, rather than using a lame "because".

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It is true, it is not an attack, or even a negative statement it is just fact. I mean the proof is in the pudding, the players want an enforcer on the bench, and am I wrong when I say they know best? Nick still waiting on all those great teams not carrying any type of enforcer.

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As I said in another post; anyone who's ever laced them up (aka played ice hockey @ ANY level) will understand the need for fighting, & for someone whom is capable of doing so.

That's crap. I've played sports. Hockey isn't magically different where fighting is needed. It's simply the only sport where it's somewhat accepted, and that's mostly just because it's always been there. Not out of some mythical need. Hockey is still hockey without the fighting.

It is true, it is not an attack, or even a negative statement it is just fact. I mean the proof is in the pudding, the players want an enforcer on the bench, and am I wrong when I say they know best? Nick still waiting on all those great teams not carrying any type of enforcer.

But I'm sure they'd much rather have an enforcer that isn't a liability out on the ice (thus making their jobs harder, not easier). This thread is getting sidetracked, but that's my main point in this debate. Can't just strap some skates on Fedor. He's gotta be able to play or he won't be out on the ice to be able to enforce anything.

PS - I never said there were a whole bunch of great teams that didn't have any type of enforcer. I said there where a whole bunch of enforcers that weren't on great teams. What great team was Stu Grimson ever on? As much as I love him and the Wings, what great team was Probert ever on? The aforementioned Tony Twist? And so on, and so forth.

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