Downey or Sopel?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

i dont understand why all you guys want detroit to get a heavy weight? in the last while our team has been successful without one. we had mccarty who would drop but i wouldnt call him a heavyweight and we have maltby who is nasty but doesnt drop them a lot. we have drake who plays a gritty game. if you want to see fights why dont you become a leafs fan or something.

Here's the reason why: Since the departures of Kocur, Lapointe, Shanahan and McCarty the Wings have won how many Stanley Cups?

BIG PHAT ZERO!

Since our willing fighters departed the lineup the Wings have made the Stanley Cuf Finals how many times?

BIG PHAT ZERO!

Since Mac, our last bonafide fighter left, we haven't made it back to the finals. What we're doing is working great and we're a great team but we can't seem to get over that next hump. A couple years ago we weren't fast enough, young enough or gritty enough. Well, the past 2 seasons we've made move to address those issues.

Now, only one glaring issue remains: THE WINGS AREN'T TOUGH ENOUGH. And you all know what kind of "tough" i'm talking about. If games get chippy, if they get nasty, if teams like the Blues wan't to throw down do we want to keep watching video clips of guys like Tomas Sandstrom fighting Pronger or Draper fighting Dallas Drake or Lebda trying to fight or Jason Woolley getting KO'd by Darcy Tucker or.............s***..I could go on forever.

We beat almost everyone on the ice. But we can't beat a single person in the alley. If you want the cup you gotta be able to do a little of both.

[norrisnick 1]

Here's the reason why: Since the departures of Kocur, Lapointe, Shanahan and McCarty the Wings have won how many Stanley Cups?

BIG PHAT ZERO!

Since our willing fighters departed the lineup the Wings have made the Stanley Cuf Finals how many times?

BIG PHAT ZERO!

Since Mac, our last bonafide fighter left, we haven't made it back to the finals. What we're doing is working great and we're a great team but we can't seem to get over that next hump. A couple years ago we weren't fast enough, young enough or gritty enough. Well, the past 2 seasons we've made move to address those issues.

Now, only one glaring issue remains: THE WINGS AREN'T TOUGH ENOUGH. And you all know what kind of "tough" i'm talking about. If games get chippy, if they get nasty, if teams like the Blues wan't to throw down do we want to keep watching video clips of guys like Tomas Sandstrom fighting Pronger or Draper fighting Dallas Drake or Lebda trying to fight or Jason Woolley getting KO'd by Darcy Tucker or.............s***..I could go on forever.

We beat almost everyone on the ice. But we can't beat a single person in the alley. If you want the cup you gotta be able to do a little of both.

Since the departure of Fedorov and Larionov how many Cup wins do we have?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

The Ducks did not manhandle us. Franzen clears the puck in game 5, we win the series. Plain and simple. If that teensy tiny play can swing the series, how can you sit there and type all this crap about the big bad Ducks running roughshod over the Wings and we were powerless to stop them? It just isn't true. That game, and that series, was millimeters from going the other way.

To address your points of definitive stats... Can a team win with a European Captain? It's never happened before in the 90 year history of the league so it should be impossible, right? Nationality of your captain ranks right up there with having an enforcer on your team for reasons your team can, or cannot, win the Cup. It's just not relevant.

For the love of Pete. I hope you didn't get any on the keyboard...

I sincerely apologize to the participants in this thread that I failed to account for Boulerice's vital contribution to the Hurricane's Cup run.... as he was packing up his Blues' sweater (or was it Rivermen by that point?).

Nick, woulda, coulda, shoulda, my ass. If Franzen did that, if Lilja did this. All that is so much bulls*** because its one snippet of a 60 minute game or more. What caused us to be tied in the first place? What caused the Ducks to be able to score any goals whatsoever? The Ducks won more games than us and it had to do with having a well-balanced team. They had a team that could hit, fight and play offensive hockey. Remember Markov bumping Thornton lightly after the whistle and Thornton whooping his ass. Where'd Markov go after that series? He surely didn't do anything remarkable.

The ducks were bigger, tougher, stronger. They didn't win IN SPITE of those traits did they?

As for your European captain analogy. Just more proof that to play the game and know something about its history might serve you better before spouting off to that which you so obviously know little about.

Instead of noting how long the league has been in existence. Why not look at when the 1st European captain was named or how many teams in NHL history have had a captain who was European and for how many seasons. I think if you did any sort of research whatsoever it might help. It isn't as if there have been Euro captain's for 90 years is what i'm saying. GET IT?

We can throw every stat and each little snippet we want to prove our positions and it ain't going to matter one iota. There's only 1 thing to keep in mind.

Since the Wings lost the last of their fighters, McCarty, they have not made it to the west finals (once) let alone the cup finals.

Prior to that the 3 cups we did win had guys who could fight on their rosters and that seems to hold true for every cup winner afterwards and prior except perhaps Carolina.

Looks to me like the position you think is the best would be the exception to established rule. But hey, I applaud you for being one of the mavericks and not going with the masses on this. You know the masses, the group most players, fans and coaches belong to. I don't need a poll to tell me what I already know by the way.

Edited September 24, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Since the departure of Fedorov and Larionov how many Cup wins do we have?

None. How many since McCarty left?

See, this can go on all day.

[redwingfan19 293]

Detroit fan # 1 your avi pretty much sums up this whole debate

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Since the departure of Fedorov and Larionov how many Cup wins do we have?

Ah another brilliant point made by our astute friend.

Your analogy would be applicable in this debate if we were discussing bringing back Kocur, Probert and McCarty.

There are options out there for players like Feds and Igor. If we could get them i'd be all for it. But that's not the issue we're dealing with hear so why not try to stay with the big kids.

Look, I can do it to:

Since Yzerman retired we have not one a cup.

Since Shanny left we haven't won.

Since Mac left we haven't won.

What the hell is wrong with you? We're talking about fighters and team toughness here. Fedorov and Igor played for us when we had fighters and toughness on the team. We don't now. My 5 year old picked up on math quicker than you're picking up on any of this. Your analogies are the stuff of somebody who has given up on making any sound argument and gone purely with the sticks and stones route.

[norrisnick 1]

Nick, woulda, coulda, shoulda, my ass. If Franzen did that, if Lilja did this. All that is so much bulls*** because its one snippet of a 60 minute game or more. What caused us to be tied in the first place? What caused the Ducks to be able to score any goals whatsoever?

What caused the game to be tied? Franzen not clearing that puck. We were winning 1-0 with seconds left (on a goal by Lilly no less). Ducks picked off the weak backhanded clear attempt, got the puck to Niedermayer (the good one) and he fluttlered a shot off of Lidstrom's stick that sailed over Dom's shoulder. Then in OT Lilly tried to carry the puck throught he slot but forgot the puck. Millimeters.

The Ducks won more games than us and it had to do with having a well-balanced team. They had a team that could hit, fight and play offensive hockey.

Their team was no more well-balanced than ours. They didn't play significantly better than we did. They won more games, but we outplayed them more than they did us.

Remember Markov bumping Thornton lightly after the whistle and Thornton whooping his ass. Where'd Markov go after that series? He surely didn't do anything remarkable.

Markov had long stretches of unremarkable play all season long. Every now and then he'd mix in a great hit or two, but he's not a constant highlight reel. He wasn't before the fight, so why should he be after?

The ducks were bigger, tougher, stronger. They didn't win IN SPITE of those traits did they?

Did they win because of those traits? I wouldn't say so. The teams were very evenly matched and I'd even give the edge to us as far as carrying the play goes.

As for your European captain analogy. Just more proof that to play the game and know something about its history might serve you better before spouting off to that which you so obviously know little about.

Instead of noting how long the league has been in existence. Why not look at when the 1st European captain was named or how many teams in NHL history have had a captain who was European and for how many seasons. I think if you did any sort of research whatsoever it might help. It isn't as if there have been Euro captain's for 90 years is what i'm saying. GET IT?

Oh I get it. I was merely bringing in another similarly flawed theory that many in the hockey world do cling to. There are fans/analysts of the game that believe you cannot win without a Canadian leading the charge. They point to the fact that it's never happened. As you so graciously pointed out, that's a flawed argument. Get it?

We can throw every stat and each little snippet we want to prove our positions and it ain't going to matter one iota. There's only 1 thing to keep in mind.

Since the Wings lost the last of their fighters, McCarty, they have not made it to the west finals (once) let alone the cup finals.

Are you kidding? What was that series we just had against the Ducks?

Prior to that the 3 cups we did win had guys who could fight on their rosters and that seems to hold true for every cup winner afterwards and prior except perhaps Carolina.

Looks to me like the position you think is the best would be the exception to established rule. But hey, I applaud you for being one of the mavericks and not going with the masses on this. You know the masses, the group most players, fans and coaches belong to. I don't need a poll to tell me what I already know by the way.

Who said anything about best? Or even enforcers as a whole? Go back in the thread. You will find a post of mine where I state that there would be no one happier than me if we had a guy like Clark Gillies, or Probert, or even McCarty in his heyday. I have no problem with enforcers. So long as they can play the game. A roster spot and cap space is too important to waste on a guy that can't contribute while he's got gloves on.

[sticknmove 0]

We have to remember here that we are talking about Carolina under the context of the only team to win without a HW (which is absolute BS anyways b/c Boulerice had a nice little fight card there until Downey knocked him the f*ck out) well keep in mind that this "Non fighting, no enforcer" stanley cup winner still had twice as many FM then Detroit last year, and 3x as many as the 05-06 wings team. Get a clue

I have no problem with enforcers. So long as they can play the game. A roster spot and cap space is too important to waste on a guy that can't contribute while he's got gloves on.

Edited September 24, 2007 by sticknmove

[norrisnick 1]

Ah another brilliant point made by our astute friend.

Your analogy would be applicable in this debate if we were discussing bringing back Kocur, Probert and McCarty.

There are options out there for players like Feds and Igor. If we could get them i'd be all for it. But that's not the issue we're dealing with hear so why not try to stay with the big kids.

Look, I can do it to:

Since Yzerman retired we have not one a cup.

Since Shanny left we haven't won.

Since Mac left we haven't won.

What the hell is wrong with you? We're talking about fighters and team toughness here. Fedorov and Igor played for us when we had fighters and toughness on the team. We don't now. My 5 year old picked up on math quicker than you're picking up on any of this. Your analogies are the stuff of somebody who has given up on making any sound argument and gone purely with the sticks and stones route.

Because you aren't making a sound argument. Why should I reply to a meaningless statement with anything more than a meaningless one of my own? Not winning a cup since Mac was rightfully turned away means nothing. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't support anything. Particularly since the McCarty that was around the last couple seasons was a liabiltiy out on the ice. Apart from a great WCF in '02 he'd been steadily declining since the back to back cups in the late 90s. Hurt a lot. No longer being able to keep up with the play. And really not even enforcing anything. He wasn't bought out for nothing.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Good fricken god are you people ever going to stop? This is getting insane, it's too much. I’m fricken worn out reading the same predictable scripts from both sides over and over again. We all know who's one what side of the extremes of the enforcer/not-so-much enforcer debate.

I’m sorry for sounding like a crybaby complainer here and I’m not signaling anybody out in particular, but enough is enough with this enforcement/non-enforcement crap for crying out loud, from both extreme sides. The subject has been beaten to death so badly in here that it’s well under the mud, well under the Earth’s crust, and way under the Earth’s core by now. At the end of the day, nobody's viewpoints are going to change.

I never thought I’d say this, but this has gotten as bad as the stupid goalie debates that go on in here.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system. Yeah yeah I know, just don’t open the damn thread then and all that well screw you too crap in the would-be responses to my post giving me attitude back…

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Detroit fan # 1 your avi pretty much sums up this whole debate

I thought so too. That my friend, is "team toughness"

[norrisnick 1]

Good fricken god are you people ever going to stop? This is getting insane, it's too much. I’m fricken worn out reading the same predictable scripts from both sides over and over again. We all know who's one what side of the extremes of the enforcer/not-so-much enforcer debate.

I’m sorry for sounding like a crybaby complainer here and I’m not signaling anybody out in particular, but enough is enough with this enforcement/non-enforcement crap for crying out loud, from both extreme sides. The subject has been beaten to death so badly in here that it’s well under the mud, well under the Earth’s crust, and way under the Earth’s core by now. At the end of the day, nobody's viewpoints are going to change.

I never thought I’d say this, but this has gotten as bad as the stupid goalie debates that go on in here.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system. Yeah yeah I know, just don’t open the damn thread then and all that well screw you too crap in the would-be responses to my post giving me attitude back…

Then don't ******* read it.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system...

[sticknmove 0]

For once I am going to have to agree with Nick, Southern dont read/post in these threads if it pains you that much bro

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Then don't ******* read it.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system...

Good for you.

[norrisnick 1]

Good for you.

Indeed it is. It's not necessary to go from thread to thread making sure everyone is holding hands and singing kumbaya. Contentious debates and firm opposing viewpoints are allowed. As is making mountains out of molehills, to a point. Clearly this is a meaningful debate to those involved (that or the participants get some enjoyment out of the verbal sparring or whatever), so it makes no sense to hop in and belittle everyone involved just because you don't care. We don't care that you don't care. Otherwise we'd have asked for your opinion long ago.

Time for your funny Caution sign.

PS - it's impossible for anything to be under the Earth's core. There is no under the Earth's core for as you go to what appears to be beneath it, you're simply moving above it again. Like trying to go North of the North Pole. Not happening.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Indeed it is. It's not necessary to go from thread to thread making sure everyone is holding hands and singing kumbaya. Contentious debates and firm opposing viewpoints are allowed. As is making mountains out of molehills, to a point. Clearly this is a meaningful debate to those involved (that or the participants get some enjoyment out of the verbal sparring or whatever), so it makes no sense to hop in and belittle everyone involved just because you don't care. We don't care that you don't care. Otherwise we'd have asked for your opinion long ago.

Time for your funny Caution sign.

PS - it's impossible for anything to be under the Earth's core. There is no under the Earth's core for as you go to what appears to be beneath it, you're simply moving above it again. Like trying to go North of the North Pole. Not happening.

:caution:

There ya go s**thead.

[norrisnick 1]

Why cutesy it all up?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Why cutesy it all up?

Cause it's funny now, you gave me a good laugh with the explanation of the Earth's core thingy.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

i dont understand why all you guys want detroit to get a heavy weight? in the last while our team has been successful without one. we had mccarty who would drop but i wouldnt call him a heavyweight and we have maltby who is nasty but doesnt drop them a lot. we have drake who plays a gritty game. if you want to see fights why dont you become a leafs fan or something.

We want an enforcer so that we're not cheering for a team that runs away from fights because that's humiliating to some of us. Also, I guarantee you that most Wings players would love to have an enforcer in our lineup for some protection. And will people please stop posting about how close we came to making it to the finals. The bottom line is that we lost, so let it go. No one is saying that an enforcer would help us win a cup. We just want an enforcer for at least the regular season, which is when most fights occur.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Why cutesy it all up?

Well Nick, we haven't gotten another cup since we had a single guy on the roster who was a legit fighter. You can twist it around all you want and say the Wings have never won with a European captain and whatever else you want to throw in there because you don't have anything solid to build upon. That's the bottom line. No fighter, no cup. It hasn't happened yet.

If you're for having a fighter so long as he can play then i'm with you 100%. I'm certainly not one for having talentless goons on the ice.

Whether we agree on Downey being a player or a hack is another story.

[norrisnick 1]

Well Nick, we haven't gotten another cup since we had a single guy on the roster who was a legit fighter. You can twist it around all you want and say the Wings have never won with a European captain and whatever else you want to throw in there because you don't have anything solid to build upon. That's the bottom line. No fighter, no cup. It hasn't happened yet.

If you're for having a fighter so long as he can play then i'm with you 100%. I'm certainly not one for having talentless goons on the ice.

Whether we agree on Downey being a player or a hack is another story.

Lot's of things haven't happened. That doesn't mean they can't happen. That's the point. You can't point history as proof of the future. It doesn't work like that. Especially if you look at last season. Having or not having fighters had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the WCF.

Downey is barely a fighter let alone a player. Honestly, how far down the rankings of guys that fight in the NHL do you put Aaron Downey? Is he even top 50?

[sticknmove 0]

"Downey is barely a fighter let alone a player. Honestly, how far down the rankings of guys that fight in the NHL do you put Aaron Downey? Is he even top 50?"

Ok, you are officially out of your mind, after reading this statement you have made it clear to me how much of a grasy you really have on the enforcing aspect of the game.

Downeys Card:

Sep 20 NHL Bos-Chi Reid Simpson

Sep 26 NHL Flo-Bos Peter Worrell

Sep 11 NHL Bos-Buf Eric Boulton Sep 17 NHL Bos-Flo Paul Laus Sep 24 NHL Chi-Bos Bob Probert

Sep 17 NHL Buf-Chi Rob Ray

Sep 19 NHL StL-Chi Reed Low

Sep 29 NHL Nas-Chi Stu Grimson

Oct 11 NHL Pho-Chi Brad May

Dec 21 NHL Edm-Chi Georges Laraque

Mar 12 NHL Chi-Pho Andrei Nazarov

Oct 11 NHL Ana-Dal Kevin Sawyer

Dec 15 NHL Dal-Chi Chris Simon

Dec 17 NHL Dal-Phi Todd Fedoruk

Dec 27 NHL Dal-Flo Peter Worrell

Feb 11 NHL Car-Dal Jesse Boulerice

Feb 25 NHL Dal-Bos Krzysztof Oliwa

Mar 12 NHL Dal-Min Brad Brown

Sep 25 NHL Dal-Chi Travis Moen

Sep 27 NHL Det-Dal Ryan Barnes

Oct 13 NHL Dal-Buf Andrew Peters

Sep 25 NHL Dal-Chi Travis Moen

Sep 27 NHL Det-Dal Ryan Barnes

Oct 13 NHL Dal-Buf Andrew Peters

Sep 23 NHL StL-Chi Matthew Barnaby

Nov 2 NHL Chi-StL Jim Vandermeer

Nov 9 NHL StL-CBJ Jody Shelley

Dec 27 NHL Mon-Was Donald Brashear

There are SOME of his fight, against guys I figured you may have heard of. He has fought every HW in this league and has an overall Career record of 35-30-24.

With noteable win against HW's such as Andrei Nazarov, Paul Laus, Kevin Sawyer, Chris Simon, Jesse Boulerice, Andrew Peters, Krzysztof Oliwa, Tyson Nash, Matthew Barnaby and others.

Yes he has lost to, but fighting the kind of people this guy is no one (except maybe Probert) can be expected to win them all.

OH and he just kicked the sh*t out of Andre Roy

[Lou_Siffer 1]

With noteable win against HW's such as Andrei Nazarov, Paul Laus, Kevin Sawyer, Chris Simon, Jesse Boulerice, Andrew Peters, Krzysztof Oliwa, Tyson Nash, Matthew Barnaby and others.

Dont get me wrong stick, I agree with what you're saying....but the fight lover in me just has to make those edits!! There's nothing noteworthy about beating a few of those names. Most notably Tyson Nash, who's one of the biggest ragdolls ever.

[sticknmove 0]

Nazarov was up there and Kevin Sawyer was for sure up there, and the others guys I noted b/c they were the only ones I figured he would recognize. Anyways we can go ahead and mention his wins against Chris Neil and Peter Worrell, do those work?

Edited September 25, 2007 by sticknmove

[norrisnick 1]

"Downey is barely a fighter let alone a player. Honestly, how far down the rankings of guys that fight in the NHL do you put Aaron Downey? Is he even top 50?"

Ok, you are officially out of your mind, after reading this statement you have made it clear to me how much of a grasy you really have on the enforcing aspect of the game.

Downeys Card:

Sep 20 NHL Bos-Chi Reid Simpson

Sep 26 NHL Flo-Bos Peter Worrell

Sep 11 NHL Bos-Buf Eric Boulton Sep 17 NHL Bos-Flo Paul Laus Sep 24 NHL Chi-Bos Bob Probert

Sep 17 NHL Buf-Chi Rob Ray

Sep 19 NHL StL-Chi Reed Low

Sep 29 NHL Nas-Chi Stu Grimson

Oct 11 NHL Pho-Chi Brad May

Dec 21 NHL Edm-Chi Georges Laraque

Mar 12 NHL Chi-Pho Andrei Nazarov

Oct 11 NHL Ana-Dal Kevin Sawyer

Dec 15 NHL Dal-Chi Chris Simon

Dec 17 NHL Dal-Phi Todd Fedoruk

Dec 27 NHL Dal-Flo Peter Worrell

Feb 11 NHL Car-Dal Jesse Boulerice

Feb 25 NHL Dal-Bos Krzysztof Oliwa

Mar 12 NHL Dal-Min Brad Brown

Sep 25 NHL Dal-Chi Travis Moen

Sep 27 NHL Det-Dal Ryan Barnes

Oct 13 NHL Dal-Buf Andrew Peters

Sep 25 NHL Dal-Chi Travis Moen

Sep 27 NHL Det-Dal Ryan Barnes

Oct 13 NHL Dal-Buf Andrew Peters

Sep 23 NHL StL-Chi Matthew Barnaby

Nov 2 NHL Chi-StL Jim Vandermeer

Nov 9 NHL StL-CBJ Jody Shelley

Dec 27 NHL Mon-Was Donald Brashear

There are SOME of his fight, against guys I figured you may have heard of. He has fought every HW in this league and has an overall Career record of 35-30-24.

With noteable win against HW's such as Andrei Nazarov, Paul Laus, Kevin Sawyer, Chris Simon, Jesse Boulerice, Andrew Peters, Krzysztof Oliwa, Tyson Nash, Matthew Barnaby and others.

Yes he has lost to, but fighting the kind of people this guy is no one (except maybe Probert) can be expected to win them all.

OH and he just kicked the sh*t out of Andre Roy

I thought it was a draw according to the hockeyfights.com crowd? All of a sudden that gets turned into a s*** kicking?

So that's his fight card. Great. Where do YOU rank Aaron Downey? He fought Donald Brashear. Surely you don't think he's better than Huggybear, right? So what's the point of bringing it up? If Hudler felt so inclined he could fight anyone on that list, but that doesn't make him a good fighter. What makes Downey a good fighter, and how good do you honestly think he is? I know he's become some sort of demi-god around these parts by sheer virture of him possibly being signed, but c'mon now. He's far closer to the bottom of the proverbial barrel than he is to the top. Even I know this.