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FnuLaird

Downey or Sopel?

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A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on the Wings. It's these guys who CAN'T play hockey at the NHL level and are only marginal fighters (Downey, Norton, Bootland) that people are going ga-ga over that is getting the 'hell no' response from people like myself and NN.

Yepp, Downey cant play hockey :rolleyes:

Explain to me then, how come he got drafted into the NHL? Usually people with "no-skill" as you like to say, dont get drafted. So, explain it to me, how come Downey got drafted if he was a "useless" guy who "cant play hockey"?

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Yepp, Downey cant play hockey :rolleyes:

Explain to me then, how come he got drafted into the NHL? Usually people with "no-skill" as you like to say, dont get drafted. So, explain it to me, how come Downey got drafted if he was a "useless" guy who "cant play hockey"?

Eric Lecompte, Terry Ryan, Brad Church, Kevin Grimes. What do these guys have in common? They are all enforcer-types drafted in the first round in the 90s. And they have a total of ten NHL games played between them. Lecompte is the only one who played professionally last season, and he last played in North America in 1999. Just to show that the draft is not a be-all end-all. Oh, and Downey was never drafted.

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Eric Lecompte, Terry Ryan, Brad Church, Kevin Grimes. What do these guys have in common? They are all enforcer-types drafted in the first round in the 90s. And they have a total of ten NHL games played between them. Lecompte is the only one who played professionally last season, and he last played in North America in 1999. Just to show that the draft is not a be-all end-all. Oh, and Downey was never drafted.

There you go eva, you won the arguement. I dont even care anymore, you think Downey is s***, I think he's a gritty energy guy. Im done.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted

Ferguson scored 145 goals in 500 games, including a 29 goal season. Probert's best season was also a 29-goal year. Downey will likely score fewer than 29 goals total when his career is over. Probert and Ferguson were far better PLAYERS than Downey, just from a skil standpoint. Not to mention that they were significantly better FIGHTERS as well. Downey offers nothing to justify his presence on the team over a Kopecky, Drake, Maltby, Grigorenko, etc.

A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on the Wings. It's these guys who CAN'T play hockey at the NHL level and are only marginal fighters (Downey, Norton, Bootland) that people are going ga-ga over that is getting the 'hell no' response from people like myself and NN.

"A fighter with Draper's skill level is more than welcome on teh Wings."

Eva, that's quite possibly a winner for dumbest statement of 2007. So are you telling me you're holding out against bringing in a fighter-type player until one comes along that has unbelievable skating speed, is a top-notch penalty killer, a leader on and off the ice and capable of scoring 20 goals?

It's one thing not to like fighters because you think they can't play. Its another to associate hockey ability purely with offensive production. We're both stats people but sometimes you're a stats geek and you need to get out of your basement and go have some human interaction. The guy can skate, he's a very solid hitter. Do you remember the clip of him drilling Aaron Ward and putting him on his ass? Ward's a nice 6-2, 225 and Downey sent him flying.

Downey

Offensive Production - are we kidding here, why on earth would we even discuss this aspect of his game

The other stuff

-good skater, every bit as good as Chris Neil

-good hitter, makes a point of hitting everybody in a different sweater

-good fighter, can hold his own against 95% of heavyweights and lower in the league

Downey isn't going to put up any kind of production numbers. Much like George Parros or Colton Orr or Stortini or DJ King aren't going to either. They contribute in other ways to balance out a team.

When will you get that?

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Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup.

Gordie: you and I have accepted each others opinions and while we don't see eye to eye, I think we have gone as far as we can with this argument. So this post is not in retort to yours.

This team needs another top 6 forward badly.

Apparently that is not going to happen anytime soon, so therefore I worry about scoring goals. Dats and Z cannot score 70+ goals a piece, so when you take a guy out of the line up to put in a Downey you are taking away even more goals from this team.

I don't want to speak for Eva or NN, however I think we are all saying that this team needs to put pucks in the back of the net more than they need an enforcer right now.

Now if that enforcer could bring 10-15 goals or maybe 20pts I would be happy as hell to have them on the team. Downey does not provide that.

The Red Wings need a top six forward. Almost the entire second line is gone. People may have thought Lang to be lazy and suck, however he scored goals and got assists, to the tune of 52 points. Those points need to be replaced and Downey will not help that. I would love to think that Huds, Grigs, Flip, and Mule will be able to do that, but they haven't proven they will.

So my thought process is this:

For this team this year right now scoring goals is more important than exacting revenge for a dirty hit.

I understand the argument that a dirty hit could very well cost the wings Z or Dats. However I don't think Downey is going to stop Tootoo or Hartnell, etc. from taking that shot. Look at Boogard did Downey slow him down at all the other night? Nope, not one bit.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted

Opie, what about the idea that having Downey or a Downey like player creates space for other players to score goals. What about having a guy who goes full tilt at opposing dmen and can soften them up with big hits leading to turnovers which can generate goals? My favoritism with Downey has alot to do with his ability to skate. You take a guy like Boogaard or Laraque and Downey will skate circles around them. He moves around the ice well enough to create havoc and that could lead to goals in an indirect way. Do you see that as plausible at all?

As for the top 6 forward, I couldn't agree more. However, we aren't going to get a top 6 forward anytime soon. Secondly, the 12th/13th forward on the roster being Downey or the "other guy", exactly how much production are you expecting out of this "other guy" on the 4th line?

Is having a player who might look like this (goals/assists/points) 5-8-13 bringing more to the table than Downey who might look like this 1-3-4-120 PIMS?

Not having enough top 6 forwards isn't a problem you can solve by having another 4th line forward who may score a couple more goals than Downey IMO.

Given the state of affairs i'm of the opinion that since you cannot solve the issue of a top 6 forward right now you must look at other issues. One glaring issue is that 29 other teams can fight and this team cannot. We have an opportunity to add Downey to the lineup to help solve that problem. The opportunity cost here isn't the expense of a ton of goals or production from the top 6, its for a mediocre and quite probable miniscule increase in production that probably doesn't make any difference whilst still leaving us with a glaring hole in the toughness department.

However I don't think Downey is going to stop Tootoo or Hartnell, etc. from taking that shot. Look at Boogard did Downey slow him down at all the other night? Nope, not one bit.

Opie, instead of fighting the argument that Downey can stop other players from running our guys, which i'm in total agreement with you that he cannot do that. Instead of focusing on that as a point for your argument. Why not be open minded and look at Downey as being the type of player that can take runs at the oppositions best players and dish out a little punishment? It seems to me that nobody should have a problem with a Redwings players going full tilt at the other teams' best guys.

Edited by GordieSid&Ted

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Opie, what about the idea that having Downey or a Downey like player creates space for other players to score goals. What about having a guy who goes full tilt at opposing dmen and can soften them up with big hits leading to turnovers which can generate goals? My favoritism with Downey has alot to do with his ability to skate. You take a guy like Boogaard or Laraque and Downey will skate circles around them. He moves around the ice well enough to create havoc and that could lead to goals in an indirect way. Do you see that as plausible at all?

I agree this could help, but can't a guy already on the roster like say Cleary, Drake do this? Plus who is he creating space on the ice for, Drake? Maltby? Will Malts really be able to go back to that 3 year stretch were he was scoring goals and making plays?

As for the top 6 forward, I couldn't agree more. However, we aren't going to get a top 6 forward anytime soon. Secondly, the 12th/13th forward on the roster being Downey or the "other guy", exactly how much production are you expecting out of this "other guy" on the 4th line?

My problem is that Downey would be taking a spot away from someone who is going to grab upwards of 20 points.(maybe not Kopecky not sure what he will provide, but at some time you have to use your youth.) Except of course if he takes Maltby's spot. Which I would have no problem with, however that is not how it is going to happen. I posted about a month ago or so that I see Maltby as an expendable player with who was brought in and who is waiting in the wings.

Is having a player who might look like this (goals/assists/points) 5-8-13 bringing more to the table than Downey who might look like this 1-3-4-120 PIMS?

Well that all depends is that 5-8-13 player Drake or Kopecky or ???? in that case Drake or Kopecky may have 50-60 PIMS in the role that Babs wants to use them for.

Not having enough top 6 forwards isn't a problem you can solve by having another 4th line forward who may score a couple more goals than Downey IMO.

Agreed, the problem is will Downey score one goal this year, will he get 5 pts, no one really knows for sure obviously, but if you look at his career numbers he averages about 3 points a season. As this team stands he is taking a spot from one of the following: Maltby, Kopecky, Drake, Huds, or Cleary. Or he will be the 13th forward and play once and a while, well barring injury. So if he is the team enforcer, what good is he doing in the press box.

Given the state of affairs i'm of the opinion that since you cannot solve the issue of a top 6 forward right now you must look at other issues. One glaring issue is that 29 other teams can fight and this team cannot. We have an opportunity to add Downey to the lineup to help solve that problem. The opportunity cost here isn't the expense of a ton of goals or production from the top 6, its for a mediocre and quite probable miniscule increase in production that probably doesn't make any difference whilst still leaving us with a glaring hole in the toughness department.

True, but the team has to find ways to get the goals back that they are missing in the top 6 spot some how. Plus the team is giving Grigs a try out as well and if you look at the roster it is already full without him or Downey on it. So as I see this roster I would rather have Drake at .5 mil and having had only one season where he had less than 25 points. Granted it was last year, but I am more willing to take a chance that he will regain his old form than I am that Downey will have an impact as a 12th or 13th forward. Which would do one of the following:

1. Take Kopecky spot and send another young guy down, thus costing the wings the mentoring of Kopecky to become the gritty forward.

2. Send Drake packing costing this team potentially 20 pts, and the mentorship.

3. Make him the 13th forward which again does not help anything really, as I said above having him in the press box makes no sense, he can't be in a fight up there, unless it is with his own teammate.

4. Take Maltby's spot that is the way I see it to work best but even then he has taken away at least 10 pts and a very solid penalty killer. Now I think this team has 4-6 solid pk-ers, so the loss of Maltby in that role is not that severe, however if there is an injury or two then Malts would have to step in, but then again with an injury or two Downey's role would also increase. I don't agree with the toughness stance, but I think that is because you and I have different definitions of toughness, I think you are talking about fighting and you probably think I am talking about grit. But this team did not back down to 3 very tough teams in the playoffs, and was a bounce or two or a 5-3 goal away from a 3-2 series lead against the ducks. Again I think we are referring to two different things when we say toughness.

We should have started discussing this topic like this from the start it wouldn't have been the Dead horse argument of I want him, yeah well I don't. Much more intellectual this way!

EDIT: Gordie the "Won't stop anything" argument is not so much in rebuttal to you, it is the people who keep posting that it is either Downey or watching Dats and Z get run over all of the time. If people stop saying that is the reason for him I will stop saying "he won't stop anything".

Edited by Opie

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"Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup."

Some times I think it is a sense of anti-reality more then anything else, and I am honestly not trying to be a d*ck. I mean the Red Wings have tried the "powerplay is our enforcer" lineup the last couple years and it has not brought us a cup so it amazes me that people like you, who like us all want nothing more to bring the cup back to Detroit will refuse the notion of trying a little something new and have a enforcer on the roster for certain nights. And do not give me that BS that "we had Norton blah blah blah and he didn't do sh*t for us", Norton was NEVER given a fair shake here, that guy was in Grand Rapids before he showed up to camp that summer. People around here seem to love reminding everyone that "WE MADE IT TO THE WCF LAST YEAR WITHOUT A FIGHTER AND IT WOULD OF MADE NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAYS IF WOULD OF HAD ONE, PSSSH" and a true statement that is, but much like opie I am more concerned with the Stanley Cup, that is opposed to the WCF, and I know we made it there enforcerless, and congrats, we had another amazing year last year but I do remember watching a stanley cup that featured 2 teams, both of them might I add carried "enforcer types" on their roster, and no those types werent playing in the finals, or consistently at any point of the playoffs, that is nothing new, sometimes I think people here think they discovered asomething when they proclaim "HOW MUCH DID PARROS HELP?? HE DIDN'T EVEN DRESS IN THE PLAYOFFS".....Well no sh*t Einstein, enforcers tend to sit postseason as teams opt to go with more depth because the grind (that being amount of crucial games in such short time). That is nothing new, but Anaheim and Ottawa if nothing else proves having an enforcer or enforcers does not HURT your chances of success one inkling.

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"Here is my problem with a guy like Downey, it is not that I am anti-fighter. I love a good hockey fight, however when it comes to the wings I am more concerned with winning the cup."

Some times I think it is a sense of anti-reality more then anything else, and I am honestly not trying to be a d*ck. I mean the Red Wings have tried the "powerplay is our enforcer" lineup the last couple years and it has not brought us a cup so it amazes me that people like you, who like us all want nothing more to bring the cup back to Detroit will refuse the notion of trying a little something new and have a enforcer on the roster for certain nights. And do not give me that BS that "we had Norton blah blah blah and he didn't do sh*t for us", Norton was NEVER given a fair shake here, that guy was in Grand Rapids before he showed up to camp that summer. People around here seem to love reminding everyone that "WE MADE IT TO THE WCF LAST YEAR WITHOUT A FIGHTER AND IT WOULD OF MADE NO DIFFERENCE ANYWAYS IF WOULD OF HAD ONE, PSSSH" and a true statement that is, but much like opie I am more concerned with the Stanley Cup, that is opposed to the WCF, and I know we made it there enforcerless, and congrats, we had another amazing year last year but I do remember watching a stanley cup that featured 2 teams, both of them might I add carried "enforcer types" on their roster, and no those types werent playing in the finals, or consistently at any point of the playoffs, that is nothing new, sometimes I think people here think they discovered asomething when they proclaim "HOW MUCH DID PARROS HELP?? HE DIDN'T EVEN DRESS IN THE PLAYOFFS".....Well no sh*t Einstein, enforcers tend to sit postseason as teams opt to go with more depth because the grind (that being amount of crucial games in such short time). That is nothing new, but Anaheim and Ottawa if nothing else proves having an enforcer or enforcers does not HURT your chances of success one inkling.

First off great post

I agree and if this team had Lang back I would have no issue with them signing up a Downey type guy. Not that my opinion matters to the wings at all.

But you are telling me that having an enforcer helped the Ducks, just not in the playoffs? Correct? ( just curious didn't want to miss read your post)

I agree that having an enforcer doesn't hurt the team, I am saying my opinion is that this team needs to focus on other aspects.

I for one have never come out and said people who want fighters are idiots, actually it is usually the opposite. Those of us who would rather see some one other than an enforcer get ragged on, and are called things like "Anti-realistic"or are told that the wings didn't win the cup because they didn't have an enforcer. More often than not I find myself defending my opinion in these debates. Not attacking the fighters. It is taken as attacking when I pose a question like, how does an enforcer help the team. It seems as soon as an enforcer type player is signed by another team or clears waivers, this place goes into a tizzie about how that was the missing piece to the cup. It is not stated as "I would have loved to have that guy" or it starts that way and then the arguing back and forth begins.

Inevitably someone brings up the Philly game last year, and my standard response is what happen to Philly and then that is when the s*** storm happens, because some people on here can not articulate a response to it. Not all!

Hey if you think the wings need an enforcer/fighter more power to you, just don't jump down my throat because I don't and then expect me to post back "Oh, you are so right I changed my mind." Because no matter what my opinion you (like me) won't change yours.

And the more I think about this I would actually like to have Downey in the top 12 as long as it is over Maltby.

That will probably be the least popular thing I have ever typed, but I as I think about it, Downey would provide more of what people like about Maltby, the antagonizer, plus he will fight, and the 4-6 goals 10 pts Maltby would get are replaceable. Plus Mule, Z, Dats, Cleary, Drake can all kill penalties.

So I guess maybe you have swayed my opinion.

Congrats!

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Opie, instead of fighting the argument that Downey can stop other players from running our guys, which i'm in total agreement with you that he cannot do that. Instead of focusing on that as a point for your argument. Why not be open minded and look at Downey as being the type of player that can take runs at the oppositions best players and dish out a little punishment? It seems to me that nobody should have a problem with a Redwings players going full tilt at the other teams' best guys.

Every Cup winner tends to have more than a few guys whom are $hit disturbers, or for the opposition they'll call them "chippy", or for some they're known as cheapshot artists.

I'll be the 1st to say I don't want to have a Claude Lemieux type (then again we did have Bertuzzi), but someone who isn't afraid of getting into the faces of the opposing stars, & getting them off their game...Maltby used to do this quite well, but he also has a knack for backing down, and or not standing up for himself, or a teammate...Maybe with Drake, & possibly Downey as linemates - he'll grow a spine, & get his nose dirty like he had several years ago.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted

First off great post

I agree and if this team had Lang back I would have no issue with them signing up a Downey type guy. Not that my opinion matters to the wings at all.

But you are telling me that having an enforcer helped the Ducks, just not in the playoffs? Correct? ( just curious didn't want to miss read your post)

I agree that having an enforcer doesn't hurt the team, I am saying my opinion is that this team needs to focus on other aspects.

I for one have never come out and said people who want fighters are idiots, actually it is usually the opposite. Those of us who would rather see some one other than an enforcer get ragged on, and are called things like "Anti-realistic"or are told that the wings didn't win the cup because they didn't have an enforcer. More often than not I find myself defending my opinion in these debates. Not attacking the fighters. It is taken as attacking when I pose a question like, how does an enforcer help the team. It seems as soon as an enforcer type player is signed by another team or clears waivers, this place goes into a tizzie about how that was the missing piece to the cup. It is not stated as "I would have loved to have that guy" or it starts that way and then the arguing back and forth begins.

Inevitably someone brings up the Philly game last year, and my standard response is what happen to Philly and then that is when the s*** storm happens, because some people on here can not articulate a response to it. Not all!

Hey if you think the wings need an enforcer/fighter more power to you, just don't jump down my throat because I don't and then expect me to post back "Oh, you are so right I changed my mind." Because no matter what my opinion you (like me) won't change yours.

And the more I think about this I would actually like to have Downey in the top 12 as long as it is over Maltby.

That will probably be the least popular thing I have ever typed, but I as I think about it, Downey would provide more of what people like about Maltby, the antagonizer, plus he will fight, and the 4-6 goals 10 pts Maltby would get are replaceable. Plus Mule, Z, Dats, Cleary, Drake can all kill penalties.

So I guess maybe you have swayed my opinion.

Congrats!

Hey Opie,

I guess it just sort of boils down to which basket we want to put our eggs into. Basket 1: Can Downey contribute more to the total team effort by providing not only more spark and jam to the lineup but a legitimate fighting presence. Or Basket 2: Can Kopecky, Drake, Grigorenko provide more depth scoring.

I've tried to weigh both sides of it but I keep going back to Downey simply because of the amount of ice-time and projected output. Grigs has done nothing to establish himself as worthy of a roster spot and both Drake and Kopa have alot to prove to show they are going to contribute offensively at all. With Downey, you know you aren't going to get offense but you know what you are going to get. He's a known commodity.

Remember when Malts could actually put up some points? It might've had something to do with guys like Kocur and McCarty being on his line and giving him some protection, making it easier for him to play his game comfortably. Downey could do that far better than any other 12th forward candidates.

In the end, none of the guys filling the 12th spot are going to get considerable minutes. They aren't going to get PP minutes either. So what we're dealing with is the 5-7 minutes per game of even strength hockey they'll provide.

IMO, Downey can make a physical impact in those minutes and provide some form of equal firepower from the fighting side of it for the duration of a game. Kopa, Drake, Grigs, Malts, none of these guys can fight (Drake actually can go but he's a lightweight/low middleweight fighter) the way Downey can.

My last comment on this is that I think his impact can be greater in ways that are not as tangible as goals or points and that his impact could far outweigh the very minimal amount of points we're talking about any of these 4th liners providing. My position is emphasized by the fact that none of those other guys can bring the toughness firepower that Downey can. There's just no way a Cleary or Kopa can do what Downey does from the toughness standpoint.

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Great discussion in this thread! (and without arguing I might addl)

One point to consider is that couldn't a player like Downey help keep our Goals Against down to some degree as well? Much like what opposing teams use their ramrods for against Dats and Zetts lines? Forwards can't score if they keep having to pick themselves up off the ice, (like Detroit forwards in the playoffs). Could this not be an area where Downey's point total doesn't tell the whole story?

Also, keep in mind that replacing point production doesn't exactly equal wins or Cups. It certainly helps though...

my two cents...

esteef

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I'll tell you Gordie, I didn't think it would happen but this discussion has definitely changed my opinion of Downey. I think he should make the starting 12. Of course who I have him replacing no one else will agree and I will get more grief for that. But either way I now see a reason for him to be on the roster, and actually would be greatly pleased if it happened.

It is amazing esteef, this was a really good thread like you said and it actually got me to change my opinion. And not because some one yelled at me to think differently, but because the thought provoking discussion got me there.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted

I'll tell you Gordie, I didn't think it would happen but this discussion has definitely changed my opinion of Downey. I think he should make the starting 12. Of course who I have him replacing no one else will agree and I will get more grief for that. But either way I now see a reason for him to be on the roster, and actually would be greatly pleased if it happened.

It is amazing esteef, this was a really good thread like you said and it actually got me to change my opinion. And not because some one yelled at me to think differently, but because the thought provoking discussion got me there.

1. It takes a big person to be able to open up to different ways of thinking.

2. I could be full of poop and Downey could be unwilling to fight anymore or get involved physically which would negate my entire argument for him.

Unfortunately I am basing all of my argument on his past play and not what he's done this preseason as I haven't seen a preseason game yet.

Opie, I know who you want him to replace. And I don't really have an issue with that selection. Only part of my thinking is that that player (wink, wink) might find a resurgence with Downey on the other wing.

I need to see how the roster shakes out but if we're keeping 13 forwards. I would have no problem dressing Downey for games against Nashville, St.Louis, Chicago, Anaheim and dressing, say Grigorenko or Kopa or somebody else for games against non-conference opponents or teams that don't typically play a full-tilt smash-mouth kind of style.

Hopefully they keep 13 and the guy who is contributing the most all around to the team gets the most starts and if that isn't Downey, at least he's around in case we want to add some nasty to the lineup.

PS: I think everybody on here is an asshat and that GS&T is the smartest man on the planet so the rest of you can F off!!!!

what kind of place would LGW be if all we had were these great discussions where people lay out their points of view and don't flame each other? Ughhhh, I shudder to think about a world like that, with no animosity in it. :)

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personally I like Neil Clark better than any of them. He's a better skater, smarter and younger. Why shouldn't the Wings consider him? By the way, why isn't anyone ragging on why Hartigan is here? At least Downey/Clark can fight, Hartigan couldn't even break the Blue Jackets lineup.

Edited by Barnes52

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Remember when Malts could actually put up some points? It might've had something to do with guys like Kocur and McCarty being on his line and giving him some protection, making it easier for him to play his game comfortably. Downey could do that far better than any other 12th forward candidates.

That's what I've been trying to say all along; knowing somebody "has your back" has an effect that is felt not only on the line that this individual plays on, but the whole bench feels it as well.

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Hey Opie,

I guess it just sort of boils down to which basket we want to put our eggs into. Basket 1: Can Downey contribute more to the total team effort by providing not only more spark and jam to the lineup but a legitimate fighting presence. Or Basket 2: Can Kopecky, Drake, Grigorenko provide more depth scoring.

I've tried to weigh both sides of it but I keep going back to Downey simply because of the amount of ice-time and projected output. Grigs has done nothing to establish himself as worthy of a roster spot and both Drake and Kopa have alot to prove to show they are going to contribute offensively at all. With Downey, you know you aren't going to get offense but you know what you are going to get. He's a known commodity.

Remember when Malts could actually put up some points? It might've had something to do with guys like Kocur and McCarty being on his line and giving him some protection, making it easier for him to play his game comfortably. Downey could do that far better than any other 12th forward candidates.

Maybe it's because the two seasons Maltby put up 30+ points, the Wings had several forwards miss 20+ games? In Maltby's two best offensive seasons, he didn't play regularly with Mac, and Kocur had retired by then. How could their presence have affected him directly when they didn't play together that often those years? I don't think Dave Lewis used them together more than a handful of games, and Maltby's two best offensive seasons were both under Lewis. Maybe THAT's why Maltby did well? Because he WASN'T with McCarty or Kocur...

In the end, none of the guys filling the 12th spot are going to get considerable minutes. They aren't going to get PP minutes either. So what we're dealing with is the 5-7 minutes per game of even strength hockey they'll provide.

IMO, Downey can make a physical impact in those minutes and provide some form of equal firepower from the fighting side of it for the duration of a game. Kopa, Drake, Grigs, Malts, none of these guys can fight (Drake actually can go but he's a lightweight/low middleweight fighter) the way Downey can.

No, none of those guys can fight the way Downey can...but their significant advantage at being able to play the game outweighs their disadvantage in fisticuffs. Downey is not a good enough fighter for that alone to justify his roster spot, and all of the guys you listed bring more than Downey to the Wings. The question is, with which 12 forwards in camp are the Wings most likely to win most games? The answer doesn't include Downey.

My last comment on this is that I think his impact can be greater in ways that are not as tangible as goals or points and that his impact could far outweigh the very minimal amount of points we're talking about any of these 4th liners providing. My position is emphasized by the fact that none of those other guys can bring the toughness firepower that Downey can. There's just no way a Cleary or Kopa can do what Downey does from the toughness standpoint.

Downey is terrible at both ends of the ice. Not true of anybody the Wings have under contract; everyone else is good at one end or both ends. Being a 33-year-old bottom-tier heavyweight doesn't get you a roster spot if you can't play. And that is a perfect description of Downey.

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Aaron Downey.

As much as I like Sopel, we need Downey. It's time this team have someone take will take initiative and stand up for their teammates if their getting beaten to death like Michael Vick in a room full of dogs. We haven't had a player even willing to do this since Dmac, and it's a crying shame too, since Zetterbergs injury last season could have been avoided if we did have one.

No matter what the circumstance, I can utmost say Downey will not be on this team though. I can and will point the finger at Ken Holland, because of his complete unwillingness to even give fighters a chance. Now I hear that Mark Hartigan will get the spot. The same guy that Holland swept right off his feet when free agency began (or sometime nearby then), and the same guy that we have 50,000 clones of already on the team and in the system. Exiting, isn't it?

Eric Lecompte, Terry Ryan, Brad Church, Kevin Grimes. What do these guys have in common? They are all enforcer-types drafted in the first round in the 90s. And they have a total of ten NHL games played between them. Lecompte is the only one who played professionally last season, and he last played in North America in 1999. Just to show that the draft is not a be-all end-all. Oh, and Downey was never drafted.

This is a post I just had to single out. Of all guys you prefer to compare to Downey, you pick a couple of 1st round busts that were never meant to be only one-dimensional enforcers in the first place.

Terry Ryan put up 110 points one season in juniors, and was a top 10 draft pick. Who in their right minds would ever even consider using a top 10 pick on an enforcer? Ryan was meant to be a quality 1st or 2nd line winger when he was drafted. For whatever reason, he didn't pan out.

Eric Lecompte and Brad Church both put up 88 points as career high numbers, which isn't great, but was still decent enough. I can assure you neither player was looked at as being an enforcer when they were or near the team leaders in points while playing juniors.

If you wanted to pick 1st round players that were meant to only be enforcers (due to piss poor management, since no smart person would ever use a 1st round pick on a guy they could easily get in the 10th round) you should have picked someone like Mike Brown or Shawn Antoski. And even Antoski had a fairly decent career, and might be still playing if not for a serious car accident.

I don't know why you choose to discredit Downey so much. Who the hell else do you think should get that last spot? Grigorenko? Give me a break. He's been absolutley terrible this whole preseason. And I'm sorry, but I can't continue to accept being from Russia as an excuse for him, because Russians have been coming over to North America for decades now to play hockey, and not all of them come out of shape. So it isn't because he's from Russia or any of the other crap that people have said: it's because he's lazy and doesn't know how to train properly.

...and who else can you think of that should get the spot? Mark Hartigan or Matt Ellis? Both career minor leaguers that really bring nothing special to the table? (keep in mind that I do like Ellis, but if it has to come down to Ellis or Downey, Downey get's my vote)

You know, it would really be nice to have an enforcer on this team again. No, Downey does not suck as badly as you make him out to be. He isn't Brad Norton, so stop using that comparison, and stop using one failed mistake as a benchmark to never again carry an enforcer.

Also: your comment about having a fighter "with Draper-type skills" is the most ridiculous crap I've seen in a while. You'd be lucky to even find a player in the world that can fight full-time while being a top notch faceoff man, penalty-killer, 20-goal scorer, and former Selke-Trophy winner.

By the way, why isn't anyone ragging on why Hartigan is here? At least Downey/Clark can fight, Hartigan couldn't even break the Blue Jackets lineup.

See my above post.

Hartigan... again, a guy we have millions of other players who can do what he does. I see no point in keeping him. He's basically a smaller, less physical, and less offensive version of Franzen.

Edited by Kp-Wings

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good convo, kp I am going to have to agree with you about the reality of Downey making the team, I to just dont see it happening. Its unfortunate I guess, but again, as you said, Holland does not want anything to do with having a Downey type. Well at least a gread thread/conversation was sparked by Downey, however that is as far as i think any of us will see him as a Wing.

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You beg to differ, but you clearly didn't understand what I wrote. And really, the quotes you laid out there don't really counter what I wrote either.

Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react. And reacting won't matter either, because as I stated in my post the types of guys that go out there running anyone and everyone and don't care whether they do so within the bounds of the rule book, also don't care whether there is an enforcer on the other side.

A question for you. A couple days ago we played the Wild. Boogaard took a massive run at Downey well behind the play and had he caught him flush likely would have taken his head off (luckily Booger is a tad slow and even Downey is quicker). What pray tell would it take to keep Boogaard honest? Giving Cheli a concealed carry license so he can take his shifts packing a .45? Boogaard obviously doesn't care who is out there. The only thing a fight would do is keep him off the ice for 5 minutes, but as it stands his own coach would do that anyway as he only takes 2 shifts a period or so.

Or Avery? He doesn't care. Ruutu? Doesn't care. Tootoo? Doesn't care. Marchment never cared. Lemieux never cared. Ulf never cared. Etc... The guys that teams need to worry about, either don't mind fighting or will duck fights anyway.

I will bet my farm, and my neighbors farm too, that you have never played even one game of hockey above rec or beer league.

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I will bet my farm, and my neighbors farm too, that you have never played even one game of hockey above rec or beer league.

And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what? That doesn't change the fact that I disagree with hanging on to a player that can't play, but he can fight (sorta). It doesn't help anything. Particularly on a team like the Wings. Downey will not make the Wings the Broadstreet Bullies. Downey will not bring us back to the days when Probert and Joey were prowling around. Nor even the '97 team that featured truly multi-dimensional tough players like Konstantinov, Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Kocur, Pushor, etc... The Wings are and will continue to be for the forseeable future, a skill based, defensively sound, puck possession team. Period. Adding a scrub on the 4th line (or the press box which is where Downey would be anyway), will not change anything.

Aaron Downey.

As much as I like Sopel, we need Downey. It's time this team have someone take will take initiative and stand up for their teammates if their getting beaten to death like Michael Vick in a room full of dogs. We haven't had a player even willing to do this since Dmac, and it's a crying shame too, since Zetterbergs injury last season could have been avoided if we did have one.

No matter what the circumstance, I can utmost say Downey will not be on this team though. I can and will point the finger at Ken Holland, because of his complete unwillingness to even give fighters a chance. Now I hear that Mark Hartigan will get the spot. The same guy that Holland swept right off his feet when free agency began (or sometime nearby then), and the same guy that we have 50,000 clones of already on the team and in the system. Exiting, isn't it?

This is a post I just had to single out. Of all guys you prefer to compare to Downey, you pick a couple of 1st round busts that were never meant to be only one-dimensional enforcers in the first place.

Terry Ryan put up 110 points one season in juniors, and was a top 10 draft pick. Who in their right minds would ever even consider using a top 10 pick on an enforcer? Ryan was meant to be a quality 1st or 2nd line winger when he was drafted. For whatever reason, he didn't pan out.

Eric Lecompte and Brad Church both put up 88 points as career high numbers, which isn't great, but was still decent enough. I can assure you neither player was looked at as being an enforcer when they were or near the team leaders in points while playing juniors.

If you wanted to pick 1st round players that were meant to only be enforcers (due to piss poor management, since no smart person would ever use a 1st round pick on a guy they could easily get in the 10th round) you should have picked someone like Mike Brown or Shawn Antoski. And even Antoski had a fairly decent career, and might be still playing if not for a serious car accident.

I don't know why you choose to discredit Downey so much. Who the hell else do you think should get that last spot? Grigorenko? Give me a break. He's been absolutley terrible this whole preseason. And I'm sorry, but I can't continue to accept being from Russia as an excuse for him, because Russians have been coming over to North America for decades now to play hockey, and not all of them come out of shape. So it isn't because he's from Russia or any of the other crap that people have said: it's because he's lazy and doesn't know how to train properly.

...and who else can you think of that should get the spot? Mark Hartigan or Matt Ellis? Both career minor leaguers that really bring nothing special to the table? (keep in mind that I do like Ellis, but if it has to come down to Ellis or Downey, Downey get's my vote)

You know, it would really be nice to have an enforcer on this team again. No, Downey does not suck as badly as you make him out to be. He isn't Brad Norton, so stop using that comparison, and stop using one failed mistake as a benchmark to never again carry an enforcer.

Also: your comment about having a fighter "with Draper-type skills" is the most ridiculous crap I've seen in a while. You'd be lucky to even find a player in the world that can fight full-time while being a top notch faceoff man, penalty-killer, 20-goal scorer, and former Selke-Trophy winner.

See my above post.

Hartigan... again, a guy we have millions of other players who can do what he does. I see no point in keeping him. He's basically a smaller, less physical, and less offensive version of Franzen.

How?

As for the Grigorenko part, I'm going to shamelessly steal someone else's sentiments on that. You do not come back from what he came back from by being lazy. He wasn't as prepared as he should have been (likely because he couldn't make it to the conditioning camp during the summer because of visa issues, which are the team's responsibility, not the player's), but it isn't unreasonable to chalk that up to the differences between the RSL and NHL. Two completely different animals even though they both involve ice and puck.

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I will bet my farm, and my neighbors farm too, that you have never played even one game of hockey above rec or beer league.

So? Just because somebody doesn't play hockey doesn't mean they always don't know what they are talking about.

Some people who have never played hockey still can get pretty knowledgable about the sport by WATCHING the sport.

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Downey is terrible at both ends of the ice. Not true of anybody the Wings have under contract; everyone else is good at one end or both ends. Being a 33-year-old bottom-tier heavyweight doesn't get you a roster spot if you can't play. And that is a perfect description of Downey.

Have you ever seen Downey play? I dont think you have, because he is not terrible at either end of the ice and he CAN play hockey. He'd be one of the harder working Red Wings if he made the team, he works a hell of a lot harder then Grigerenko or Mark Hartigan. If your gonna talk about the guy, at least know what your talking about. Downey is NOT a liability like Brad Norton was, he's a better fighter and works so much harder and his natural talents are better then Nortons as well. He hits harder, and skates MUCH better.

Your not gonna convince anyone that Aaron Downey is terrible, since he isnt, and people can see how hard he works when he's playing in games.

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