Bucci's preseason predictions

[therock48880 14]

I get the feeling you haven't looked at this roster since 2004.

How can you argue anything he said? It's a fact that the wings have had the smallest roster the past few years. Yup, they lost in the WCF last year. Some are happy with that and some are not. Personally, I'm not. You have stated in the past that you ARE happy with that and I think that's where a lot of the disagreements come from. Those who are content to lose in the WCF see no need for change. Those who aren't, want change. To be honest, I hope you're right and this team is good enough to win the Cup. However, history has shown repeatedly that teams like the Wings don't win Cups. That's what Bucci was talking about in his analaysis of the Wings. Teams used to dread playing them, now they don't. They aren't a difficult team to play against physically. Babcock has said repeatedly that he wants to make them harder to play against. Yet many of you don't agree. Maybe Babcock's wrong. I think he's right, though.

Agree 100%......

We proved in last year's playoffs that toughness and grit were lacking....Pronger/Neids getting away with cheaping on Holms....countless late hits and run at Dom going unanswered...We have a great team and all the ingredients needed, but a little spice is missing.....

The years the Cup was hoisted never would the above examples go unchecked....

I haven't gone back and watched the games but I seriously can't remember one time when anyone run Giggy in the playoffs last year. Yet Hasek was run repeatedly. Iginla was even quoted in the paper saying they were purposely running at him to throw him off his game. Can you imagine someone saying that about Giggy? It would NEVER happen.

In terms of team toughness, you know what play set the tone for the entire Calgary series? It wasn't a dazzling goal by Zetterberg or anyone else, it was a tremendous hit delivered by Schneider along the boards early in game one. That fired the crowd and the players up.

Great post!!!

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Carolina was not totally barren of toughness, they did at least have Commodore mainly, and Craig Adams.

[therock48880 14]

Carolina was not totally barren of toughness, they did at least have Commodore mainly, and Craig Adams.

True, but I don't think they had many PIM's. That's what the "anti-toughness crowd" at LGW is referring to.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I get the feeling you haven't looked at this roster since 2004.

This roster was actually a lot tougher in 2004. The reason we lost that year in the playoffs was because Yzerman and Chelios were hurt, and we had too many guys disappear for us when we needed them. I just don't understand how some of you think that we're a gritty team all of a sudden. We beat Calgary last year because they couldn't score or play on the road, and we beat San Jose because of the great Robert La....I mean because their top players disappeared, with the exception of Thornton. I don't think that we advanced through those 2 rounds because we suddenly became a tough, gritty team. Likewise, I don't think the rest of the NHL is going to take the playoffs last year as proof of us being tough or gritty. The Wings are still known around the league as a soft team, and as I said in my last post, there's very few people, some of which are on this forum, that believe otherwise.

[therock48880 14]

Bucci mentions that the wings are boring. Last year I was at the March 14th game. It was the second night of a home and home with Nashville as the two teams were battling for the division. In years past, the Joe would have been rocking, but not this night. The loudest it got was when Bootland tried to go after Tootoo in retaliation for his cheap shots the night before. Other than that, the place was very quiet. Maybe they ARE a boring team.

[theman19 47]

Carolina was not totally barren of toughness, they did at least have Commodore mainly, and Craig Adams.

We're not totally barren of toughness either. But yes, i'm getting at the PIM's. Evidently PIM's equal stanley these days, from a logical stand point, that's not true in carolina's case.

[sticknmove 0]

I am going to be honest here, no homer glasses, unless you aare a huge Wings fan, which I believe all of us here are. They are painfully boring to watch, it is a known and talked about fact. Just go to any other hockey message board outside a detroit red wings and you will see for yourself.

[lets go pavel 2]

What is toughness and grit? 2 years ago when we lost in the first round to a more physical Edmonton team everyone said we lacked toughness and grit because when the games turned physical we folded. Well last year we didn't do that. When the games turned physical we played through it, we brought some hits of our own, we held our own, and we almost made it to the SCF. To me that's toughness and grit. I think we have both.

What I think is missing is a physical presence, and I think that's what Bucci is partly talking about when he says we don't make anyone uncomfortable. It's not about penalty minutes, but the penalty minutes come with that style of play. He's not talking about an enforcer that plays 4 minutes a night. What we're lacking is that third or fourth line of big, young, fast, skilled bodies that fly around the ice hitting people and make the opposing team try to figure out how to match up. Do you play your heavies against them and be overmatched in the skill department, or do you play your skill guys and have them overmatched in the physicality department? It's the Penner/Perry/Getzlaf? line from last year's Ducks, it's our Grind line with McCarty from years ago. Unfortunately these lines aren't a dime a dozen, and they don't usually come together from free agency. Drake isn't a bad pickup, but Drake is not going to keep opposing coaches up at night. I think if we want a young, physical line like this we're going to have to start drafting with this in mind. If Ryno bulks up a bit he'd be a nice start ...

Edited September 29, 2007 by lets go pavel

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

We're not totally barren of toughness either. But yes, i'm getting at the PIM's. Evidently PIM's equal stanley these days, from a logical stand point, that's not true in carolina's case.

And if you want to look at it that way, from a logical standpoint, it is true in Anaheim's case.

But you're missing or overstating the point. Obviously he's not saying that Detroit needs more PIM's to win the cup. But those are often an indicator of a tough, nasty team who will grind an opponent down in a 7 game series.

Detroit hit a lot and played pretty tough for how undersized and non-physical they play during the regular season. But the fact of the matter is they are still not a team that grinds an opponent down or roughs them up over a series.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

We're not totally barren of toughness either. But yes, i'm getting at the PIM's. Evidently PIM's equal stanley these days, from a logical stand point, that's not true in carolina's case.

Oh yeah? Commodore had 138 PIMs in 05/06, Craig Adams had 51 PIMs in 05/06, Eric Staal had 81 PIM's in 05/06, Rod Brind'amour had 68 PIM's in 05/06, Eric Cole had 54 PIM's in 60 games in 05/06, Bret Hedican had 58 PIM's in 05/06.

So there goes that arguement. Every team who has ever won the cup, has had a couple of guys with alot of PIM's.

[auxlepli 17]

I like Bucci's enthusiasm for hockey. Love it in fact. I was all set to rip John a new one, but after reading all his comments on the Wings, I kinda agree. There were some rumors about Avery coming back to the Wings. His edginess was one reason I was all for it.

[norrisnick 1]

And if you want to look at it that way, from a logical standpoint, it is true in Anaheim's case.

But you're missing or overstating the point. Obviously he's not saying that Detroit needs more PIM's to win the cup. But those are often an indicator of a tough, nasty team who will grind an opponent down in a 7 game series.

Detroit hit a lot and played pretty tough for how undersized and non-physical they play during the regular season. But the fact of the matter is they are still not a team that grinds an opponent down or roughs them up over a series.

But the fact of the matter is that a winning team doesn't have to grind the opponents down or rough them up to win. They simply have to be able to withstand the grind and keep playing their game. The Wings can. They showed that last season and I have no reason to believe it won't continue to hold true.

Someone wrote a great article either during the playoffs or just before that the current Wings are pretty much a larger scale version of Nick Lidstrom. Some may consider him a boring player, he does nothing flashy and he doesn't run guys through the boards. But the greatness (and IMO entertainment) lies in his subtle brilliance as a tactical master. But I guess it's not something for everyone. Which is why soccer isn't very popular around these parts...

[auxlepli 17]

You make good and valid points too norrisnick. Hmmm ... IDK; I just want the Wings to win the Cup.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

But the fact of the matter is that a winning team doesn't have to grind the opponents down or rough them up to win. They simply have to be able to withstand the grind and keep playing their game. The Wings can. They showed that last season and I have no reason to believe it won't continue to hold true.

Someone wrote a great article either during the playoffs or just before that the current Wings are pretty much a larger scale version of Nick Lidstrom. Some may consider him a boring player, he does nothing flashy and he doesn't run guys through the boards. But the greatness (and IMO entertainment) lies in his subtle brilliance as a tactical master. But I guess it's not something for everyone. Which is why soccer isn't very popular around these parts...

True, a winning team doesn't have to grind an opponent down, but I think it greatly increases their chances of making it to the Cup because they can not only withstand but also win the physical war that happens in a 7 game series round after round. Some people claim the only reason the Wings lost to Anaheim is because of a couple fluke injuries. That definitely was a factor, but I think they were also feeling the toll of all the previous rounds and starting to lose the physical battles with Anaheim.

Even if a couple bounces had gone our way, I'm not sure we would've come out on top had it gone to 7 games.

Beyond that, I look back at the roster of our championship years. Of course this team doesn't have to match that lineup man for man to repeat, but I think there are some crucial elements those lineups had that the current one still lacks.

[norrisnick 1]

True, a winning team doesn't have to grind an opponent down, but I think it greatly increases their chances of making it to the Cup because they can not only withstand but also win the physical war that happens in a 7 game series round after round. Some people claim the only reason the Wings lost to Anaheim is because of a couple fluke injuries. That definitely was a factor, but I think they were also feeling the toll of all the previous rounds and starting to lose the physical battles with Anaheim.

Even if a couple bounces had gone our way, I'm not sure we would've come out on top had it gone to 7 games.

Beyond that, I look back at the roster of our championship years. Of course this team doesn't have to match that lineup man for man to repeat, but I think there are some crucial elements those lineups had that the current one still lacks.

It entirely depends on who is bringing the physicality. If you bring in physical players that can fully replace whatever the person they're replacing already brings, yeah I'll buy that the chances are increased. But otherwise, it's just changing around the strenghts. If you're a more physical team, but sloppier defensively and thus easier to score on, no ground has been gained. 7 game grind or not, because if you can't keep the puck out who says you can grind the other team out for 7 games as opposed to being beaten in 5 or 6.

The Ducks don't win a Game 7 in Detroit. And who's to say they still would have won game 6 in Anaheim? Without the emotional charge of a huge last minute comeback to tie and then OT winner... you never know.

Depends on which lineup you're looking at, but I guess in all of the three you've got a trio of HOF two-way franchise players in or near their prime. First two you've got three levels of power forwards (Shanny, Lapointe, and Mac). Third one you've got a stable full of 500 goal scorers and the top two defensemen in the league as well as a HOF goalie. I'd argue our current team is considerably harder to play against and more balanced than the '02 team. We just don't have 10 sure fire HOFers anymore. We're down to 3.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It entirely depends on who is bringing the physicality. If you bring in physical players that can fully replace whatever the person they're replacing already brings, yeah I'll buy that the chances are increased. But otherwise, it's just changing around the strenghts. If you're a more physical team, but sloppier defensively and thus easier to score on, no ground has been gained. 7 game grind or not, because if you can't keep the puck out who says you can grind the other team out for 7 games as opposed to being beaten in 5 or 6.

The Ducks don't win a Game 7 in Detroit. And who's to say they still would have won game 6 in Anaheim? Without the emotional charge of a huge last minute comeback to tie and then OT winner... you never know.

Depends on which lineup you're looking at, but I guess in all of the three you've got a trio of HOF two-way franchise players in or near their prime. First two you've got three levels of power forwards (Shanny, Lapointe, and Mac). Third one you've got a stable full of 500 goal scorers and the top two defensemen in the league as well as a HOF goalie. I'd argue our current team is considerably harder to play against and more balanced than the '02 team. We just don't have 10 sure fire HOFers anymore. We're down to 3.

But you can bring in size without sacrificing defensive responsibility, it just takes more savvy and probably more money. Hell the biggest guy we've got on defense is still probably the biggest liability, not to mention he doesn't even use his size most of the time.

The first two Cup teams were by far tougher to play against than this current lineup, and maybe even the 02 lineup was too.

They had an all star roster, but still had size in Shanny, Fedorov, Dandenault, McCarty, Fischer. And probably still more overall toughness too. Fedorov was a big stron center who's impossible to knock off the puck. Shanny was fading but still fought, McCarty was still tough, Chelios was nastier than he is now, Maltby was still nasty to play against (unlike now).

I agree that the Cup win in 02 was probably more about the Hall of Famers than the toughness, but that team was still pretty darn tough. Fischer alone was a massive physical loss to the Wings blueline, made worse by the fact he was finally getting his game together.

As I've said before. The Wings have lost a lot of size and toughness since those years and have done very little to replace it.

[norrisnick 1]

But you can bring in size without sacrificing defensive responsibility, it just takes more savvy and probably more money. Hell the biggest guy we've got on defense is still probably the biggest liability, not to mention he doesn't even use his size most of the time.

The first two Cup teams were by far tougher to play against than this current lineup, and maybe even the 02 lineup was too.

They had an all star roster, but still had size in Shanny, Fedorov, Dandenault, McCarty, Fischer. And probably still more overall toughness too. Fedorov was a big stron center who's impossible to knock off the puck. Shanny was fading but still fought, McCarty was still tough, Chelios was nastier than he is now, Maltby was still nasty to play against (unlike now).

I agree that the Cup win in 02 was probably more about the Hall of Famers than the toughness, but that team was still pretty darn tough. Fischer alone was a massive physical loss to the Wings blueline, made worse by the fact he was finally getting his game together.

As I've said before. The Wings have lost a lot of size and toughness since those years and have done very little to replace it.

Well, take heart as we've got big kids on the way. Kindl, Quincey, and Ericsson are all 6'2" 210lb+ on the blueline and not shy physically. Ryno is huge and has massive potential if we get some meat on him. Abdelkader is decently sized and loves the physical game. Dick Axelsson is a goal scoring physical guy over in Sweden (probably a bit crazy though looking at some of his PIM totals...).

And the guys we have now might not fight, but they aren't shrinking violets either. If you can list Dandy and Fedorov I can name Franzen and Lilly. I agree though that Fischer is a huge loss. He was finally coming around to show the potential we saw in '02. So sad.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Well, take heart as we've got big kids on the way. Kindl, Quincey, and Ericsson are all 6'2" 210lb+ on the blueline and not shy physically. Ryno is huge and has massive potential if we get some meat on him. Abdelkader is decently sized and loves the physical game. Dick Axelsson is a goal scoring physical guy over in Sweden (probably a bit crazy though looking at some of his PIM totals...).

And the guys we have now might not fight, but they aren't shrinking violets either. If you can list Dandy and Fedorov I can name Franzen and Lilly. I agree though that Fischer is a huge loss. He was finally coming around to show the potential we saw in '02. So sad.

I know. I can't wait to see if these big kids pan out for the Wings. I've got my fingers crossed. Our blueline is where we're most lacking size.

Fedorov I included because he's 6'2" 200+ lbs, and impossible to knock of the puck. Dandy wasn't huge (if you don't count his feet) but at 6'1" 200+ would be one of the bigger guys on the current lineup, and he wasn't nasty, but wasn't afraid to muck it up either.

That's what made Fischer's loss even bigger for the Wings. I had dogged the guy for a few seasons because he never seemed to live up to his potential, but that last season he really was getting it together.

[WingNut 25 5]

I love Bucci but I don't agree with some of the stuff he's said about several teams, including the Wings. Vancouver won't even win their division this year.

[Wingsfan25161929 3]

Buccigross is a retard, but he's right on this one. Even though from a fan's perspective it's hard to see my team as boring, I don't doubt for a minute that that is the way other people look at the Wings.

I agree. Buccigross is right. Did anyone attend the game a couple froday's ago against the penguins? It was SOOOO boring. I have been to scoreless games before and at least something went on. But not at this game. Honestly I can't remember anything that happened that was like OH LOOK or HEY!!. It was really boring. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge hockey fan and LOVE the red wings, I played hockey for four years. The team just didn't put anything together. They were just kind of skating back and forth and both teams were just passing the puck back and forth. I honestly don't even think there were a ton of SOG...

This game is the only one I've seen all preseason, so I'm hoping it is an exception. But part of me is worried.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

If boring means the Wings will continue to have one of the top seeds going into the playoffs (yeah yeah I know, weak division...) and they'll continue to be a contender to go to the SCF, play boring all you want then...

[lets go pavel 2]

Actually I think we'll be a more exciting team to watch this year than last ... with Dats and Z split up we have 2 top lines with good energy and scoring potential (especially in contrast with Bob Lang's slow and easy second line approach last year), plus Flip should log more ice time on the third line and he brings a lot of energy too ...

[DaKineMaui 8]

Some may consider him a boring player, he does nothing flashy and he doesn't run guys through the boards. But the greatness (and IMO entertainment) lies in his subtle brilliance as a tactical master. But I guess it's not something for everyone. Which is why soccer isn't very popular around these parts...

Once again - I cannot disagree but will post anyways........I happen to enjoy what Mozart/Lidstorm does on the ice. The great ones make it look effortless.....every time.

.......BUT........<-----the big but:

SOMETIMES I also enjoy changing the station over to a different frequency. "All Tool all the time".

"You ran my guy and now you hafta pay". (And then they go after the guy who ran my guy, then pound him into bite-sized pieces.)

For instance: If someone runs Nick, the Red Wings, on the next faceoff would line up.......geez.....I can't finish this sentence either.............

[Guest Yzer19]

What a minute. Wasn't Bucci the same person that wrote the article in the playoffs about how the Wings were so much better without it's 2 veteran players and now he is saying the team is boring without them. What a joke. He clearly knows nothing at all about hockey.

[BlueMonk 102]

I'm glad Bucci suggests a correlation between the empty seats at the Joe and the lack of physical toughness on this team. Whatever people want to believe about how to build a successful playoff hockey team, I have no doubt whatsoever that the style of play the Wings embrace is at least partially responsible for a new apathy towards the team in these parts. Those 90s teams were tough and played tough. They fought and they had physical rivalries with other teams (like Colorado) who did the same. When you take that away, you lose some of the excitement and appeal of the sport, especially in this town, where fans loved the fisticuffs and bad blood.