Finally Downey is playing

[aflac9262 211]

I'm not sure what Babcock was thinking, only playing Downey two minutes in a game against a physical team like Anaheim. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing Downey on the second line with Hudler and Filppula. He could at least make some room for the other two to do something.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Oh jeez, tell me about it!

Some people on here act like the Wings need to be a bunch of old British men drinking tea around a fireplace to be a successful team. It's ridiculous.

"Classy" and "weak" are two totally different words that people need to start telling the difference from. I don't want the Wings to swing their sticks around like lumberjacks (or Jesse Boulerice), but it's ridiculous when people on here and completely frown upon the notion of toughness or fighting because it would make the Wings "not classy" anymore. Heck, you'd think aquiring Bertuzzi would have thrown that notion right down the drain, considering what he did.

The Wings were a classy team in the 90's, and they still had forms of toughness and fighting. So, that's not going to break that off like everybody seems to think.

Thinking about it I guess it probably has to do with the fact that the Wings arent capable of handling the retribution that might come, especially against the Ducks. It really has nothing to do with class, its that they cant do it! Ideally, with 5 minutes to go, you send Downey after Pronger. Thats what other teams would do after some of the things he's done to this team, most notably smashing Holmstrom in the playoffs. But if that were to happen, you'd have Getzlaf, May, Moen, Perry, Beauchemin, and the rest of the crew all looking for dance partners....and that would turn really ugly for Detroit. One reason why, even with Downey in the lineup, the Wings still need alot more team toughness imo. So imo the "class" argument is basically a cover-up word people use for a weakness in the toughness department. Downey and Drake is obviously a good start, but they still need more. Im not talking full fledged scrappers, but some bigger bodies who are at least capable of handling themselves from time to time.

[Flip-check 6]

Oh jeez, tell me about it!

Some people on here act like the Wings need to be a bunch of old British men drinking tea around a fireplace to be a successful team. It's ridiculous.

It's amazing to me how many people think toughness isn't needed on this team. It's almost like a bad practical joke when someone comes on and says "BUT GUYS look at how tough we were last playoffs?!?!?//////1", but then...

You realize they're actually serious. These are guys that have obviously never played hockey in their lives or have some inability to, I don't know... have balls?

I can't think of any better phrase for it. And I can probably list a handful of ladies on LGW that have more balls than those hockey (Cue Arnold!) girly men.

[Heaton 1]

Your guys sponges don't work anymore.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I'm not sure what Babcock was thinking, only playing Downey two minutes in a game against a physical team like Anaheim. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing Downey on the second line with Hudler and Filppula. He could at least make some room for the other two to do something.

I remember saying it here near the end of last season when suggested, that Hudler and Filppula is a horrid combination for a second line that simply wont work. I recall drawing some ire for that statement. I think you almost have to move Holmstrom down with Flip, and find a 3rd guy for that line not named Jiri. The theory being that no matter who you put up with Zetterberg and Datsyuk he's probably going to fare well, so you're better off putting someone who's not as good as Holmstrom up there to try and even things out a little more.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Thinking about it I guess it probably has to do with the fact that the Wings arent capable of handling the retribution that might come, especially against the Ducks. It really has nothing to do with class, its that they cant do it! Ideally, with 5 minutes to go, you send Downey after Pronger. Thats what other teams would do after some of the things he's done to this team, most notably smashing Holmstrom in the playoffs. But if that were to happen, you'd have Getzlaf, May, Moen, Perry, Beauchemin, and the rest of the crew all looking for dance partners....and that would turn really ugly for Detroit. One reason why, even with Downey in the lineup, the Wings still need alot more team toughness imo. So imo the "class" argument is basically a cover-up word people use for a weakness in the toughness department. Downey and Drake is obviously a good start, but they still need more. Im not talking full fledged scrappers, but some bigger bodies who are at least capable of handling themselves from time to time.

Yeah, I will definitly agree with that notion.

The Wings toughness is very limited. Drake and Downey are good, but it doesn't help when one of the two never plays, and the other is getting up in his 40's and might get worn down if he tries to do it all himself. The Wings definitly need a lot more.

It's amazing to me how many people think toughness isn't needed on this team. It's almost like a bad practical joke when someone comes on and says "BUT GUYS look at how tough we were last playoffs?!?!?//////1", but then...

You realize they're actually serious. These are guys that have obviously never played hockey in their lives or have some inability to, I don't know... have balls?

I can't think of any better phrase for it. And I can probably list a handful of ladies on LGW that have more balls than those hockey (Cue Arnold!) girly men.

Good post.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: One playoff series does not a tough team make.

Your guys sponges don't work anymore.

Insiteful as always I see.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Get ready for the "Red Wings are too classy to do that" typical response.

Actually under the current rules, isn't there a good chance throwing Downey out in the waning minutes of a game out of reach could lead to his supension, a fine for the team, and a potential fine for Babcock?

I understand why Babcock kept him on the bench. the Wings had a decent shot at winning that game until late in the third.

I definitely think this team needs more toughness, but it does seem like people are overly fixated on Downey. It's probably more of a sign of how desperate we fans are for it.

It's nice to see Drake out there hitting and dropping the gloves once in a while, though I'm a little concerned that he's already a -5 playing 10 minutes a game. I have a feeling Downey would be even worse.

[Flip-check 6]

The theory being that no matter who you put up with Zetterberg and Datsyuk he's probably going to fare well, so you're better off putting someone who's not as good as Holmstrom up there to try and even things out a little more.

I remember Filppula keeping pace with Z&D while Homer was recovering from the playoff eye injury last year, but you're right, nearly anyone will do alright.

And as much as I think Hudler and Flip have 40-50 point potential (down the road), they just are too green to be on the same line together. I just can't wait until/if Holland makes a move to make this team more than 1st/3rd/3rd/4th liners on down.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Flip-check

[Kp-Wings 3]

Actually under the current rules, isn't there a good chance throwing Downey out in the waning minutes of a game out of reach could lead to his supension, a fine for the team, and a potential fine for Babcock?

I understand why Babcock kept him on the bench. the Wings had a decent shot at winning that game until late in the third.

I definitely think this team needs more toughness, but it does seem like people are overly fixated on Downey. It's probably more of a sign of how desperate we fans are for it.

It's nice to see Drake out there hitting and dropping the gloves once in a while, though I'm a little concerned that he's already a -5 playing 10 minutes a game. I have a feeling Downey would be even worse.

Always here to ruin the fun.

I understand what you're saying. But still, at that point, the game was a wash. It would have been nice to close out the final minutes with a good fight, not watching Datsyuk get plowed in the ground by Pronger, and Kopecky lose the puck off his stick every time he touches it.

At this point, nobody has seen enough of Downey to determine whether he'll be that bad. Kopecky may not be a minus player, but his play is certainly deserving of a few minuses. I don't see how Downey could play any worse then what Kopecky is doing (or shall I say not doing) right now.

It'll have to wait until the next injury, though, because it sounds like Samulesson will be back in the lineup come Thursday. At least that's what Babcock is hinting at.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Actually under the current rules, isn't there a good chance throwing Downey out in the waning minutes of a game out of reach could lead to his supension, a fine for the team, and a potential fine for Babcock?

I understand why Babcock kept him on the bench. the Wings had a decent shot at winning that game until late in the third.

I definitely think this team needs more toughness, but it does seem like people are overly fixated on Downey. It's probably more of a sign of how desperate we fans are for it.

It's nice to see Drake out there hitting and dropping the gloves once in a while, though I'm a little concerned that he's already a -5 playing 10 minutes a game. I have a feeling Downey would be even worse.

I actually forgot about the stupid instigator with less than 5 minutes rule. But still, sometimes sending a message that your team isnt going to take any s*** is worth risking a fine. Not that its my money of course... The fixation on Downey has alot to do with the desperation...also i think we all realize that he definitely has the ability to be more of an impact than Brad Norton couldve ever been. So we just wanna see him get an ample shot before sent down.

[Flip-check 6]

At this point, nobody has seen enough of Downey to determine whether he'll be that bad. Kopecky may not be a minus player, but his play is certainly deserving of a few minuses. I don't see how Downey could play any worse then what Kopecky is doing (or shall I say not doing) right now.

I don't know Kp, I sure liked seeing Kopecky's active role in stepping into somebody else's shoulder opening night.

But I agree, I don't see anything to him at all. And a 6'3" forward at 187-200lbs is kind of embarassing. I've seen more to like out of Ellis to be honest.

edited

Edited October 16, 2007 by Flip-check

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I remember Filppula keeping pace with Z&D while Homer was recovering from the playoff eye injury last year, but you're right, nearly anyone will do alright.

And as much as I think Hudler and Flip have 40-50 point potential (down the road), they just are too green to be on the same line together. I just can't wait until/if Holland makes a move to make this team more than 1st/3rd/3rd/4th liners on down.

I think Flip is capable at 2nd line center with the right wingers, Hudler is the problem. Having them both together is a disaster. Way too green like you said, and too soft. Honestly, although this has nothing to do with him being a first line talent, cause he's not 2nd liner either, but it would be interesting to see someone like even Cleary tossed up there with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. All he has to do is play gritty and drive the net, and he'd be fine. Then you're able to drop down Holmstrom to help Flip. None of this is a scenario i'd want ideally of course, but im working with whats there.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I think Flip is capable at 2nd line center with the right wingers, Hudler is the problem. Having them both together is a disaster. Way too green like you said, and too soft. Honestly, although this has nothing to do with him being a first line talent, cause he's not 2nd liner either, but it would be interesting to see someone like even Cleary tossed up there with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. All he has to do is play gritty and drive the net, and he'd be fine. Then you're able to drop down Holmstrom to help Flip. None of this is a scenario i'd want ideally of course, but im working with whats there.

Why not just put Cleary on the 2nd line and demote Hudler, keeping the ZDH line remains intact?

I think the offensive production of keeping that first line together may outweigh the benefits of moving Homer down to the second line. At least with the potential guys we've got on it right now.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I think Danny and Drapes should get bumped up, ride the hot guys while there hot. Make our 2nd line Drapes-Filpula-Cleary. Maltby-Hudler-Kopecky thrid line, and then Drake-Ellis-Downey.

They could be worse ...

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Why not just put Cleary on the 2nd line and demote Hudler, keeping the ZDH line remains intact?

I think the offensive production of keeping that first line together may outweigh the benefits of moving Homer down to the second line. At least with the potential guys we've got on it right now.

Cleary would be better than Hudler thats for damn sure. But, im trying to find a little more balance...as Holmstrom is better than Cleary. Its just hard to imagine that Z and D couldnt continue to do what theyre doing with Cleary instead Homer. I would at least try it, and if it didnt work then move it back to how it was. Its not like theyd all the sudden lose the cohesiveness forever.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Why not just put Cleary on the 2nd line and demote Hudler, keeping the ZDH line remains intact?

I think the offensive production of keeping that first line together may outweigh the benefits of moving Homer down to the second line. At least with the potential guys we've got on it right now.

I agree. With Sammy and Stein out, the first line is the sole source of offense right now. It would be insane to break up our ONLY weapon.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Wait until the ZDH line falters then split them up, or whenever they decide to bring up Grigs. He has a slim chance to actually be a spark for the 2nd or 3rd lines. My question is what to do with the Kopecky/Downey situation. Kopecky is a ghost out there (and Ellis for that matter) while Downey rides the pine. Here is my solution.

Z-D-H

Rex-Flip-Cleary

Downey-Draper-Drake (3D Line)

Maltby-Ellis-Kopecky

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Cleary would be better than Hudler thats for damn sure. But, im trying to find a little more balance...as Holmstrom is better than Cleary. Its just hard to imagine that Z and D couldnt continue to do what theyre doing with Cleary instead Homer. I would at least try it, and if it didnt work then move it back to how it was. Its not like theyd all the sudden lose the cohesiveness forever.

Z and D played with Danny on the PP last night for a couple shifts, they looked alright. I do believe that if Lang can make Danny a 20 goal scorer, Zetterberg and Datsyuk can make him a 30 goal scorer.

Instead of this, I'd rather go out and get the guy in my avatar for some scoring, easier said then done, I know, but he's probably the most available guy on Montreal at this point, we could even get a guy like Begin/Dandenault in that deal. Just an idea.

Hopefully Franzen gets better soon, we could use some scoring and a big body.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Detroit # 1 Fan

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I agree. With Sammy and Stein out, the first line is the sole source of offense right now. It would be insane to break up our ONLY weapon.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Wait until the ZDH line falters then split them up, or whenever they decide to bring up Grigs. He has a slim chance to actually be a spark for the 2nd or 3rd lines. My question is what to do with the Kopecky/Downey situation. Kopecky is a ghost out there (and Ellis for that matter) while Downey rides the pine. Here is my solution.

Z-D-H

Rex-Flip-Cleary

Downey-Draper-Drake (3D Line)

Maltby-Ellis-Kopecky

That is the exact definition of a 1 line team though. The 2nd line will get VERY little, Draper's been hot him but putting him with Downey and Drake he'll instantly cool, and the 4th line obviously will get you no goals whatsoever.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

That is the exact definition of a 1 line team though. The 2nd line will get VERY little, Draper's been hot him but putting him with Downey and Drake he'll instantly cool, and the 4th line obviously will get you no goals whatsoever.

The point was to get Downey some minutes and limit the destruction caused by Kopecky and Ellis. Like I said, it is a 1 line team with Stein and Sammy out, and it should be until they get back. I suppose Draper and Cleary could be switched though.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Wings_Dynasty

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No matter how you slice and dice the lines, this lineup is thin. By not signing anyone in the offseason, we risked putting too much faith in Hudler and Fillpulla to step up. Instead, those guys looked better last year with less icetime than they do now with 2nd line minutes.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I'm not sure what Babcock was thinking, only playing Downey two minutes in a game against a physical team like Anaheim. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing Downey on the second line with Hudler and Filppula. He could at least make some room for the other two to do something.

That wasn't even a hockey game Monday night. Special teams out the wazoo thanks to the refs. Downey is going to play, at most, 3rd line minutes I would guess, even if he did produce. That means little/no PP/PK time for him.

I'm liking this Drake-Downey-Ellis line though.

[BigTex 1]

Downey did his job last night. You guys happy with what he's bringing? I didn't see the game, did it make a difference in the rest of the game that he smacked down McLaren?

[redwingfan19 293]

Downey did his job last night. You guys happy with what he's bringing? I didn't see the game, did it make a difference in the rest of the game that he smacked down McLaren?

yep it was a 2-2 game and McClaren was running around all night, going after Z just being a punk. Seems to me like it gave our guys a boost and gave us the momentum back. After that fight the goonery pretty much halted and the Sharks were pretty lifeless after that scrap. I have been happy with Downey and like his hard play. Keep up the good work Aaron

[eva unit zero 271]

yep it was a 2-2 game and McClaren was running around all night, going after Z just being a punk. Seems to me like it gave our guys a boost and gave us the momentum back. After that fight the goonery pretty much halted and the Sharks were pretty lifeless after that scrap. I have been happy with Downey and like his hard play. Keep up the good work Aaron

Yes, the Wings scored two goals and San Jose none after the fight. But the Ellis goal was a fluke dump on the net, and THAT is the play that deflated the Sharks. Dats' goal was a few minutes later on a 5-on-3...neither goal had anything to do with Downey's fight and it's only the anti-skill crowd that thinks so.

[esteef 2,679]

Yes, the Wings scored two goals and San Jose none after the fight. But the Ellis goal was a fluke dump on the net, and THAT is the play that deflated the Sharks. Dats' goal was a few minutes later on a 5-on-3...neither goal had anything to do with Downey's fight and it's only the anti-skill crowd that thinks so.

Please, and the same could be said for the anti-fighting crowd saying it DIDN'T have anything to do with it. The Wings played tough tonight all around including Downey. Downey's fight, Dats hitting Big Joe from behind, Lilly and Drapes coming to Maltby's aid when Michalek sticked him on the ice, Cheli's elbow to Big Joe's face late in the 3rd, Maltby throwing a few big hits as well, etc. It's a wonderful thing to see the Wings playing tough and sticking up for each other, but I'm sure it's just coincidence that we played physical and won though huh?

esteef