How many games is enough to call a spade a spade?

[OsGOD 3]

If we want to talk solutions we can. That's fine. The point wasn't solutions. It was hey, people, wake the f*** up.

Hey simmer down there... or i am going to have to continue to kick your arse in hockey... I think i am playing you this week... and I think i am winning

hehe

carry on!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Hey simmer down there... or i am going to have to continue to kick your arse in hockey... I think i am playing you this week... and I think i am winning

hehe

carry on!

Three word for you Os: BRING IT ON!

You think I'm overanalyzing it, yet your response could fill novels.

You want to call a spade a spade, were both analyzing it because we're both just that interested in hockey. Nothing wrong with that, and honestly I always appreciate a well-written argument from anyone I don't happen to see eye-to-eye with.

My only point was that we've heard the "wake the f*** up people" comments before, only to see the Wings light up the scoreboard in the not so distant future. If you don't have faith in this Wings offense, I'm won't fault you. It just seems eerily familiar.

Sidenote: I agree that Holland should make a move.

Mac...sssshhhhhh....don't point out how long my posts are. That's my underhanded way of getting into people's heads and staying there long after they've left the forum, so when they wake up in a cold sweat all they think of is "GST was right, is he a genius? or is he the devil?"

PS: I don't ***** much. If you'd seen me on RWC, I was Mr. the team and Kenny can do no wrong. Seriously, this has been the 1st year i've complained about anything other than a lack of grit or true fighting presence. I've never said a peep about depth scoring in 10 years probably. The fact that i'm feeling this way makes me jumpy and nauseous. I'm not supposed to feel this way about our boys. So I can't get this issue outta my brain. Anyway, we agree. A move needs to be made. See, I am right about everything and you agree with me which further proves i'm right about everything and that you should never question me on anything nor disagree with me ever again because i'm always right. (see how many times I wrote 'i'm always right') say that enough and people will believe in the divine power of the GST!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Three word for you Os: BRING IT ON!

Mac...sssshhhhhh....don't point out how long my posts are. That's my underhanded way of getting into people's heads and staying there long after they've left the forum, so when they wake up in a cold sweat all they think of is "GST was right, is he a genius? or is he the devil?"

PS: I don't ***** much. If you'd seen me on RWC, I was Mr. the team and Kenny can do no wrong. Seriously, this has been the 1st year i've complained about anything other than a lack of grit or true fighting presence. I've never said a peep about depth scoring in 10 years probably. The fact that i'm feeling this way makes me jumpy and nauseous. I'm not supposed to feel this way about our boys. So I can't get this issue outta my brain. Anyway, we agree. A move needs to be made. See, I am right about everything and you agree with me which further proves i'm right about everything and that you should never question me on anything nor disagree with me ever again because i'm always right. (see how many times I wrote 'i'm always right') say that enough and people will believe in the divine power of the GST!

If by "right" you mean you are "wrong", than sure!

Can this Wings team contend without adding Forsberg: I believe they can. Do I believe they should try: I don't.

Sidenote: Trust me GS&T...I'm right. No matter what the subject.....I'm right!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

If by "right" you mean you are "wrong", than sure!

Can this Wings team contend without adding Forsberg: I believe they can. Do I believe they should try: I don't.

Sidenote: Trust me GS&T...I'm right. No matter what the subject.....I'm right!

Of course you are right my good friend. When you agree with everything I say and never form your own opinion (i hear its unhealthy so avoid it like the plague) you cannot go wrong.

Besides, if I am ever wrong about anything (I don't see that being possible) I will just wait until enough time passes, steal your position and make it my own and claim supreme dominance over all of hockeykind! Bwahahaha!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

And its officially time to close your thread.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[handyandy_101 0]

Mac, Ellis has played 5 games, is 5 out of 7 not a handful anymore?

As for the Lidstrom play, you have your opinion, I have mine. Niedermayer is a left hand shot coming down the left side. Pahlsson, being left handed was in a prime shooting position if the puck got by Nick. If it were me, I would've drifted right down the middle, shading Pahlsson more from the pass and letting Dom take Niedermayer on the shot. Coming down the left side with NIck in the middle of the ice would've meant Niedermayer had to make a strong power move to his backhand to come across the crease. Odds are he would've had to shoot short side and had Dom not had to drift at all for the potential pass, he could've hugged the short side leaving nothing for Niedermayer to shoot at. Maybe you know more about d than me but after 20 years of it I am comfortable in my knowledge. Lidstrom didn't eliminate the shooter or the other guy. He should've marked Pahlsson and let Dom take Niedermayer on the shot.

edit: Just for reference, Nick shaded more towards Niedermayer than he did Pahlsson and obviously didn't really take the pass option away from Rob. Considering the odds that Niedermayer may or may not have cut back against the crease and go backhand, I would've taken Pahlsson out of the equation altogether.

thats rite..."the book" says that in a two on one situation the defenseman should cover the pass and let the goalie take the shooter. I, too, was surprised by what Lidstrom did on that play, I almost got the impression that he didn't realize that Pahllson was where he was (although I assume he did). With that said, however, who am I to doubt Lidstrom, because he practically wrote the book.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Can't believe I got to miss all this fun ranting.

Eh, I tired myself out last night in the GDT. Most of what I would have said would have just been repeats from last night. You know, about how Hasek and Kopecky suck. The teams lack of physicality. Babcock's inability to put together decent line combinations (like Lilja and Kronwall as defensive pairs. WTF is up with that?). Babcock's refusel to give Downey more then 2 shifts a game.

You all know where I'm coming from, so everything's good.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I think it should be you, Detroit#1 and KP wings, cause lord knows the Wings NEED GRIT!!

What I wouldnt give to play for the Wings man.

But to be realistic here, the Wings need to inquire to some GM's about goal scoring wingers. Jp Dumont and Micheal Ryder are the guys I'd want, Dumont probably wouldnt be avaiable to us, as trading within your division to make the better team even better wouldnt be very smart. So, Ryder, get on the phones Kenny, an extra 30 goals couldnt hurt.

As for defence, the UFA option would of course be Markov, but if I was looking to trade, a guy like Aaron Ward would be worth looking at, he's much better then Lilja and is a tough customer, I've always liked him so I may be a bit biased in putting him in as trade option , but he could help.

As for the goaltending, it'll be fine. Ozzie is back, and Dom just needs a couple more games to get his groove back.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I think it should be you, Detroit#1 and KP wings, cause lord knows the Wings NEED GRIT!!

Hey now, no need to bring me into this. Glad to see you thought of me though. I've had a few scraps back in my playing days.

...and by playing days I mean as a kid, of course. As an old man of 23 years old now, I can longer keep up with those guys anywmore.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Hey now, no need to bring me into this. Glad to see you thought of me though. I've had a few scraps back in my playing days.

...and by playing days I mean as a kid, of course. As an old man of 23 years old now, I can longer keep up with those guys anywmore.

The minute the influx of 18 year old kids came started to join our men's league, I knew I was done. They'd blow past me, i'd spend the entire game chopping them and saying whatever I could to freak them out but none of them would fight so I just looked like an ******* running around starting s***. That and the fact that I couldn't put up a point to save my life made it pretty easy for me to just call it a day. As a side note, my knuckles have never been happier.

[eva unit zero 271]

With Sammy and Franzen out, the lines I would like to see are:

Hudler/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Filppula/Datsyuk/Kopecky

Cleary/Draper/Maltby

Ellis/Drake/Downey

Z and Homer will still produce without Dats, so why not try Dats with Flip and Kopay in an effort to find some chemistry and maybe a second line.

Edited October 17, 2007 by eva unit zero

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

With Sammy and Franzen out, the lines I would like to see are:

Hudler/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Filppula/Datsyuk/Kopecky

Cleary/Draper/Maltby

Ellis/Drake/Downey

Z and Homer will still produce without Dats, so why not try Dats with Flip and Kopay in an effort to find some chemistry and maybe a second line.

I like those lines alot, but the one change I would make would be to put Cleary on the second line, and Kopecky on the third. I don't see Kopecky with that much future scoring potential and I don't think he'll clear any more room for guys like Dats. As a result, I'd rather have a guy like Cleary with a little scoring touch to play opposite of Filppula.

[eva unit zero 271]

I like those lines alot, but the one change I would make would be to put Cleary on the second line, and Kopecky on the third. I don't see Kopecky with that much future scoring potential and I don't think he'll clear any more room for guys like Dats. As a result, I'd rather have a guy like Cleary with a little scoring touch to play opposite of Filppula.

I would rather get Kopecky on Das wing and give him every chance to show he can be a support scorer with a physical edge. Cleary played phenomenally with Drapes and Malts last postseason, so there's no reason not to play that unit together.

Although it looks like Sammy is going to be back and Z will be out, so maybe change the top two lines to be:

Filppula/Datsyuk/Kopecky

Holmstrom/Hudler/Samuelsson

[lets go pavel 2]

I would rather get Kopecky on Das wing and give him every chance to show he can be a support scorer with a physical edge. Cleary played phenomenally with Drapes and Malts last postseason, so there's no reason not to play that unit together.

Although it looks like Sammy is going to be back and Z will be out, so maybe change the top two lines to be:

Filppula/Datsyuk/Kopecky

Holmstrom/Hudler/Samuelsson

i don't know, flip and kopecky don't shoot, and the third line is all shooters and no puck movers ... i think i might swap flip and huddles, and i'm still partial to homer with pavel, but i can live with giving kopecky a chance ... i'm guessing it'll be homer/pavel/sammy on line 1 though ...

[WINGS TILL DEATH 9]

Aww, f***, it. I'm just bitter because I hate losing to Anaheim. Yeah, i'm jealous of the style they play. I'll admit it. I like that along with having good skill players, they have a guy on every line and every d-pairing that can and will drive you through the boards and then drop the gloves and fight you when you get up.

Did anyone else not like the way Lidstrom played that 2 on 1 when Pahlsson scored shorthanded? I've played D my whole life and i'm no Nick Lidstrom of course but that's absolutely not how I would have defended on that play. And no, I do not have 5 Norris trophies.

I hate the ducks and everything they do. I hated how Lidstrom went for the puck on that 2 on one. Everyone in squirt knows to take away the pass. Hasek is a lucky bastard also who never really had skill just amazing luck like the ducks. I HATE THE DUCKS. I'm sick of losing to them and their luck. Why is it that every goaltender plays an amazing game when they're against the wings?

Aww, f***, it. I'm just bitter because I hate losing to Anaheim. Yeah, i'm jealous of the style they play. I'll admit it. I like that along with having good skill players, they have a guy on every line and every d-pairing that can and will drive you through the boards and then drop the gloves and fight you when you get up.

Did anyone else not like the way Lidstrom played that 2 on 1 when Pahlsson scored shorthanded? I've played D my whole life and i'm no Nick Lidstrom of course but that's absolutely not how I would have defended on that play. And no, I do not have 5 Norris trophies.

I hate the ducks and everything they do. I hated how Lidstrom went for the puck on that 2 on one. Everyone in squirt knows to take away the pass. Hasek is a lucky bastard also who never really had skill just amazing luck like the ducks. I HATE THE DUCKS. I'm sick of losing to them and their luck. Why is it that every goaltender plays an amazing game when they're against the wings?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I would rather get Kopecky on Das wing and give him every chance to show he can be a support scorer with a physical edge. Cleary played phenomenally with Drapes and Malts last postseason, so there's no reason not to play that unit together.

Although it looks like Sammy is going to be back and Z will be out, so maybe change the top two lines to be:

Filppula/Datsyuk/Kopecky

Holmstrom/Hudler/Samuelsson

I can appreciate that reasoning. Either way, I'm good. However, I wouldn't mind seeing my lines as well.

[Guest Crymson]

Here's some numbers for you non stat freaks. Yeah, I know, i'm only focusing on the bad numbers. Crazy me.

20: Goals given up by the Wings. Most goals given up by a Central Div. team. Currently only 2 Western Conference teams have given up more goals.

36%: Percentage of our total goals coming from the Power Play

50%: Percentage of our total goals coming from Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom

61%: Percentage of our total goals by forwards coming form DZH

64%: Percentage of our total points by forwards coming from DZH

6: Number of Wings forwards without a goal (Hudler, Filpulla, Kopecky, Matlby, Ellis, Drake)

So far i've been told "it's only been 3 games". Well, now its been 7 games and technically we have 3 losses. Our defense looks suspect and prone to giveaways. We proved yet again that we have difficulty playing against teams that are bigger and stronger combined with skill. I don't necessarily mean tougher either. Remember Perry knocking Chely down like he weighed 90lbs? That's what i'm talking about. We don't finish people hard enough and we aren't big enough to muscle people around in our own zone. IMO, we rely far too much on dogged pursuit because we don't have the ability to step up and separate people from pucks. This, along with the inability for any line to score goals except for Draper himself and I don't think it matters much that it's been only 3 games or "only 7 games". Where is this miraculous scoring going to take place? Cleary and Sammy are on pace for 11-13 goals each this year. And the output we were expecting (actually it was more like keeping our fingers crossed and praying) from Hudler and Filpulla is where exactly?

Aww, f***, it. I'm just bitter because I hate losing to Anaheim. Yeah, i'm jealous of the style they play. I'll admit it. I like that along with having good skill players, they have a guy on every line and every d-pairing that can and will drive you through the boards and then drop the gloves and fight you when you get up.

Did anyone else not like the way Lidstrom played that 2 on 1 when Pahlsson scored shorthanded? I've played D my whole life and i'm no Nick Lidstrom of course but that's absolutely not how I would have defended on that play. And no, I do not have 5 Norris trophies.

I'll get on the line to our players and let them know that they need to grow more.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I would rather get Kopecky on Das wing and give him every chance to show he can be a support scorer with a physical edge. Cleary played phenomenally with Drapes and Malts last postseason, so there's no reason not to play that unit together.

Although it looks like Sammy is going to be back and Z will be out, so maybe change the top two lines to be:

Filppula/Datsyuk/Kopecky

Holmstrom/Hudler/Samuelsson

Problem with that is Kopecky is not a physical winger....he's done absolutely nothing in the NHL to show that so far. Cleary plays a more physical game than Kopecky does easily. I'd much rather see him with Datsyuk than Tomas. In my opinion eva, i think you're just having a problem admitting that Kopecky sucks (since he was a guy you've been talking up alot for a while)...and thats why you'd like to see him with Datsyuk. Just so he might get some garbage points. Nothing personal, but thats the way im seeing it.

Edited October 18, 2007 by Lou_Siffer

[eva unit zero 271]

Problem with that is Kopecky is not a physical winger....he's done absolutely nothing in the NHL to show that so far. Cleary plays a more physical game than Kopecky does easily. I'd much rather see him with Datsyuk than Tomas. In my opinion eva, i think you're just having a problem admitting that Kopecky sucks (since he was a guy you've been talking up alot for a while)...and thats why you'd like to see him with Datsyuk. Just so he might get some garbage points. Nothing personal, but thats the way im seeing it.

It's quite the opposite. Kopecky was doing very well until he was hurt last season. He has been disappointing so far this year, and I think giving him a shot on Dats' wing and saying 'we want you to be a physical force and score some points on our second line' and if he can't step up and at least play a physical game (like he did in his last season in GR and the early going last season) then we know what we have and what we don't. I'm of the opinion that he will be able to step up...you aren't. Neither of us knows if we're right yet.

[datsyukiandeke 0]

the fact is we have no idea how the season is going to turn out. lets take a look at last year....

- bad start, west coast trips, everyone thinks sky is falling (like now)

-the the cleary-lang-williams line kicks it up - cleary gets most of his 20 goals during this period

-dats- zetts reunited - domination ensues

i have faith that the wings will develop a second line, and that their defensive play will improve - we have the same core players- and good coaching.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

It's quite the opposite. Kopecky was doing very well until he was hurt last season. He has been disappointing so far this year, and I think giving him a shot on Dats' wing and saying 'we want you to be a physical force and score some points on our second line' and if he can't step up and at least play a physical game (like he did in his last season in GR and the early going last season) then we know what we have and what we don't. I'm of the opinion that he will be able to step up...you aren't. Neither of us knows if we're right yet.

How was he doing well last season? He scored 1 point in about 25 games.

[Opie 308]

How was he doing well last season? He scored 1 point in about 25 games.

So Kopecky scoring 1 goal in 25 games is not playing well, but in many threads you would like to see Downey due to his intangibles, yet Kopecky can only be qualified by goals scored.

Things that make you go HMMMMMMM!!!

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

So Kopecky scoring 1 goal in 25 games is not playing well, but in many threads you would like to see Downey due to his intangibles, yet Kopecky can only be qualified by goals scored.

Things that make you go HMMMMMMM!!!

What's wrong with that? Each guy is there for a different reason. Give Downey more minutes and he'll serve his purpose. Kopecky doesn't really have a purpose, so to me he's a lost cause until proven otherwise. We know Downey is willing to fight. We don't know what Kopecky is willing to do as of yet.

[Opie 308]

So if Kopecky is in the press box, how do the wings ever find out what he can do.

Kopecky is a lost cause?, yet Downey isn't, the guy bounces around more than ping pong balls.

Not including his first two years that he played a total of 4 games here are his gp and ATOI stats (btw his rookie year was 99-00, Dan Cleary's 3rd year and Cleary is 5 years younger, so even before Downey got to the bigs no one really thought he was good enough to be a contributor).

Downey's career

year GP ATOI

01-02 36 not an official stat

02-03 43 4:47

03-04 37 4:30

05-06 42 6:43 then he was traded and got 3:56

06-07 21 4:59

07-08 2 3:01 which would equal out to be about 28 games

Seems to me that the wings are using him as much as every other team saw fit as well.

Kopecky, as I said, is unproven and untapped. The wings need to see what he can do. If he sucks it up and the wings are in danger of not making the playoffs he will be out of the line up. But it will not be Downey taking his place.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

What's wrong with that? Each guy is there for a different reason. Give Downey more minutes and he'll serve his purpose. Kopecky doesn't really have a purpose, so to me he's a lost cause until proven otherwise. We know Downey is willing to fight. We don't know what Kopecky is willing to do as of yet.

In his illustrious NHL career, only one season did Downey average over 5 minutes a game. Every other year his average ice time was under that.

Why do you think that is?

Exactly how is increasing Downey's minutes going to help win games?

As I and others have tried to point out to counteract the irrational Downey obsession that's going on, Downey is a known quantity. He has no offensive or defensive skills, but will hit and drop the gloves and isn't particularly great at either of those.

Kopecky has only played 34 NHL games, and missed the end of last season when he broke his collar bone. But he still may develop in to a solid role player at this level. He needs to get the ice time and opportunities for that to happen.

You would rather the Wings put out a dead end player on the ice just because he may pick a fight, versus them potentially developing a 3rd line player who is 25 years old?