Dom Drops Ball, Ozzie Answers Call

[interminded 1]

Perfectly said.

Anyways, im not going to rag on Dom. I do think he hasn't been the same and is probably finally slowing down, but with that said I won't bash him. I do think Ozzie should be playing majority of games until he cools down. That's fair and the way it should be.

I agree.

I don't know what's whith Dom.

Maybe he needs more time to get into the groove.

Maybe he does show signs of slowing down.

Maybe he can' play 40 + games anymore.

Maybe this.. maybe that.

I guess we just don't know.. but we'll find out sooner or later.

Untill then, a coach should play his hot goaltender a little more... that's only common sense, right ?

[chrisdetroit 189]

I hate to say it, but I think Dom is done. I was hoping we'd quit while we're ahead with him after last season, and bring up Howard this year, but oh well. Not my decision.

If Dom tanks, I don't think it's a big deal. Ozzie can be #1 and Howard can back up. Hasek's $2.5 Million isn't that much against the cap anyway.

Yup, I have a lot of respect for Dom when it comes to that. If he can't do it, he'll be the 1st one to say so.

Give me a break! 1 bad game and he's "done". ALL goalies have a bad game now and then. This is a total of 1.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Give me a break! 1 bad game and he's "done". ALL goalies have a bad game now and then. This is a total of 1.

I think you'd better duck and cover, son. They're not buying that one here. But you're right, of course.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Give me a break! 1 bad game and he's "done". ALL goalies have a bad game now and then. This is a total of 1.

I disagree.

He's had one really bad game (the last one). But he's looked shaky and less than stellar in several of his other starts this season.

That's not to say he's done. It is more of a concern with an old goaltender who's been out with a hip problem and has had groin problems in the past, but he could also return to form.

I think the point most people here are making is that Ozzy is playing very well right now and should get the bulk of the starts until Dom gets his game back together.

Edited November 15, 2007 by haroldsnepsts

[Packer487 3]

One time where it wasn't a 'the goalie should usually stop that puck' situation. Here's a hint...highlight reel saves are often meaningless. If two goalies have similar numbers, the one with more highlight reel saves is the WORSE goaltender, not the better goaltender...highlight reel saves are often the result of the goalie being out of position in the first place. I didn't say Dom played poorly; he made the stops when he needed to and that's important as we've seen goalies, including Oz and Dom, not do that very thing.

You absolutely crack me up. He has a great game, by all accounts, he was spectacular in net and your retort is "He was just out of position and it made the saves look good". You're actually trying to say that he didn't make one good save over that two game span. That's just priceless.

(BTW, all the condescending crap in italics is pretty much unnecessary--not that you can make a post without talking down to someone. We're not really comparing goalies with similar numbers and it'd be hard to argue that Hasek was worse than pretty much anyone at that period of time)

And Hasek had the two best defensemen in the NHL at the time. That kind of helps.

Sure. But it wasn't like the 03-04 defense was terrible. The 01-02 team actually gave up 200 more shots on goal than 03-04's squad. Granted that doesn't take into account "quality scoring chances".

Saying Dom was not replicating the tasks of Hercules is not the same as saying anyone could have easily done it.

Ah but you did basically say that any average goalie could've shut out the Avs in Game 6 on the road. Since Hasek didn't make a single save that any normal goalie wouldn't have stopped.

That sort of argument is usually reserved for the Ozzie bashers who think the Wings could have won in 98 with Kris Draper in goal.

It makes a little more sense to say "Any goalie could've done that" about Osgood than it does to say it about arguably the best goalie in the history of hockey. I'll grant you that he deserves more credit than I've probably given him (at least in the past--I'm on record numerous times as saying he's been outstanding since Jan. 07)....but he was also worse at times during that Cup run than a lot of the Ozzie fans are willing to admit--and it's not just the long bombs from MacInnis and Langenbruner.

Wasn't Roenick offered like 2m more by the Flyers?

Not if Nik Contsanika was right in his book. He said the Wings offered Roenick 5 years for "about $37 million". He signed a 5 year/$37 million deal with Philly. (In all fairness, he also cited Roenick's wife's desire to be in Philly more than Detroit as a reason he chose to go there--in addition to questioning our goaltending and the age of our team.)

Because the Flyers had second year veteran Roman Cechmanek, who was far more infamous for his 2001 playoff meltdown. It is a dead end argument to say 'Osgood sucked because JR said so' since that leads to JR as having deemed Checkman as Cup-caliber, which destroys his credibility for evaluating goaltenders.

I guess. But as a rookie (which was all the data he had on Cechmanek), Cechmanek was 35-15, led the league in goals against (2.01), was 2nd in the league in save percentage (.921), had 10 shutouts in 59 games and had a horrible Game 6 in the 4/5 series after playing fine the rest of the time (mind you, as a rookie).

The other guy struggled mightily in the regular season, got drastically outperformed by his backup, and bombed in the playoffs after blowing a 2-0 lead to the 7 seed. Where would you have gone? Certainly not to Osgood's side. Cechmanek was a rookie and he had outstanding numbers. Hindsight's 20-20 but there was no reason to think that he wouldn't go on to a very nice career.

In terms of point per game, Samuelsson is top 90 an Huds and Cleary are top 180...meaning we have six 'top-six' scoring forwards and four first liners, based on offensive output.

Ok. Now if you can show me that the other contenders have equal or less than that, I'd think about standing corrected. But basically what you're saying is that we have 1/30th of the "top six" forwards in the league. Since every team in the league isn't equal, it seems reasonable to me that some of the top contenders have more.

And you just tried to tell me is that I should be satisfied about having Samuelsson (who pretty much everyone here hates), Hudler (who our coach doesn't trust) and Cleary (who I do really like) as "top six" forwards on this team. That doesn't make the ole heart go pitter-patter. Forgive me.

I'll say it again. I'm a lot more worried about our scoring, should the top line cool off, and about our #2 d pairing (since Kronwall and Lilja suck) than I am about if Hasek will break out of this slump, which has led to a whopping 3 losses in regulation and still would have us on pace for a 100 point season.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Packer487

[puckloo39 5,686]

I guess. But as a rookie (which was all the data he had on Cechmanek), Cechmanek was 35-15, led the league in goals against (2.01), was 2nd in the league in save percentage (.921), had 10 shutouts in 59 games and had a horrible Game 6 in the 4/5 series after playing fine the rest of the time (mind you, as a rookie).

The other guy struggled mightily in the regular season, got drastically outperformed by his backup, and bombed in the playoffs after blowing a 2-0 lead to the 7 seed. Where would you have gone? Certainly not to Osgood's side. Cechmanek was a rookie and he had outstanding numbers. Hindsight's 20-20 but there was no reason to think that he wouldn't go on to a very nice career.

I can't stand Roenick, but in his defense, Roman Cechmanek was incredible in his rookie season in the NHL, as you said.

In his first season with the Flyers, Cech took Brian Boucher's starting job, played in the NHL All-Star Game, and I believe was a runner up for Vezina, losing out to Dom. It didn't go so well after that, but a) he played for the Flyers, who were terrible in front of him and b) it's harder than it looks to sustain that level of performance. Not too many goalies have been able to do that in the NHL.

Packer: do you remember the 8-0 blowout game when Buffalo took Phiily out of the playoffs? I have that on videotape somewhere. Priceless! It was almost as good as the 7-0 Wings' drubbing of the Avs, except I liked Cechie, and didn't like Waahhh.

Edited November 15, 2007 by puckloo39

[OsGOD 3]

It wasn't too long ago when a lowly backup who was barely having say 8 games at this point in the season posted BETTER numbers than Dom is posting right now... Said Backup was getting his head called for and being told to send him down and bring up Howard.

Why is Hasek Immune to such a case... Sure it may be just a slow start for him "as he always does" but even in last years stretch he did appear this rattled and this uncertain making saves in games.

Send HIM down to the minors and bring up Howard until Hasek can win a few down there and improve on his horrible numbers.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Send HIM down to the minors and bring up Howard until Hasek can win a few down there and improve on his horrible numbers.

[eva unit zero 271]

You absolutely crack me up. He has a great game, by all accounts, he was spectacular in net and your retort is "He was just out of position and it made the saves look good". You're actually trying to say that he didn't make one good save over that two game span. That's just priceless.

(BTW, all the condescending crap in italics is pretty much unnecessary--not that you can make a post without talking down to someone. We're not really comparing goalies with similar numbers and it'd be hard to argue that Hasek was worse than pretty much anyone at that period of time)

I didn't say he didn't make good saves. I said he didn't make truly spectacular saves...the kind that stop what should be a goal. That is a WORLD AWAY from saying an average goaltender could have done the same thing. It is also a WORLD AWAY from Dom being the Cup guarantee you and loo seem to be portraying. Dom was a factor in 2002, but he was far from our most valuable player as is being suggested. Lidstrom, Yzerman, and Fedorov were easily the top three, with Hull, Shanahan, and Chelios as important or moreso than Hasek.

Sure. But it wasn't like the 03-04 defense was terrible. The 01-02 team actually gave up 200 more shots on goal than 03-04's squad. Granted that doesn't take into account "quality scoring chances".

The shots per game was basically the same; however, as was mentioned before Nashville and Calgary are not big offensive teams known for taking many shots; yet they mustered the same kind of offensive attack as offensively skilled teams like Colorado and Vancouver. Yet Joseph still posted better numbers than Hasek in every regard except shutouts.

Ah but you did basically say that any average goalie could've shut out the Avs in Game 6 on the road. Since Hasek didn't make a single save that any normal goalie wouldn't have stopped.

I said he only saw one chance that NHL goaltenders are not expecte dto stop the majority of the time. I did not say he only saw shots that an average goaltender would always stop; huge difference. I think Hasek had two solid games...you think he had two of the greatest games ever played by a Red Wing.

It makes a little more sense to say "Any goalie could've done that" about Osgood than it does to say it about arguably the best goalie in the history of hockey. I'll grant you that he deserves more credit than I've probably given him (at least in the past--I'm on record numerous times as saying he's been outstanding since Jan. 07)....but he was also worse at times during that Cup run than a lot of the Ozzie fans are willing to admit--and it's not just the long bombs from MacInnis and Langenbruner.

Ozzie finished 2nd in Smythe voting. Hasek didn't. Ozzie's Cup team was almost identical to Mike Vernon's, except for the fact that Osgood had Anders Eriksson as a top-four defenseman instead of Vladimir Konstantinov. That, and I can think of exactly one goaltender who was an 'average' guy most of his career who has won the Cup in my lifetime; Bill Ranford, who was the 1990 version of Cam Ward-hot young backup goalie comes in for injured starter and plays out of his mind to win the Cup and the Conn Smythe. It's as I have said in the past...the only way you can win the Cup with anything short of a very good goaltender is for that goaltender to play well above his normal level in the postseason.

Not if Nik Contsanika was right in his book. He said the Wings offered Roenick 5 years for "about $37 million". He signed a 5 year/$37 million deal with Philly. (In all fairness, he also cited Roenick's wife's desire to be in Philly more than Detroit as a reason he chose to go there--in addition to questioning our goaltending and the age of our team.)

I heard a while back the Wings were outbid. Weird.

I guess. But as a rookie (which was all the data he had on Cechmanek), Cechmanek was 35-15, led the league in goals against (2.01), was 2nd in the league in save percentage (.921), had 10 shutouts in 59 games and had a horrible Game 6 in the 4/5 series after playing fine the rest of the time (mind you, as a rookie).

The other guy struggled mightily in the regular season, got drastically outperformed by his backup, and bombed in the playoffs after blowing a 2-0 lead to the 7 seed. Where would you have gone? Certainly not to Osgood's side. Cechmanek was a rookie and he had outstanding numbers. Hindsight's 20-20 but there was no reason to think that he wouldn't go on to a very nice career.

Ozzie started the 00-01 season very poorly, he even lost time to Legace. But from the tail end of December on, Ozzie posted strong numbers (2.49, .910) despite seeing an increase in shots--Oz saw more shots per game in his 00-01 season than any other, and he saw more per game after December 20th than before.

And the Wings bombed. If you are going to make the argument that Ozzie's 340 wins and his Cup are the result of his team playing well, you can't the turn around and claim he lost all by himself. Ozzie's postseason numbers were much better than Cech's...so if Roenick was going based mainly on playoff goaltending, he'd have chosen Ozzie.

Ok. Now if you can show me that the other contenders have equal or less than that, I'd think about standing corrected. But basically what you're saying is that we have 1/30th of the "top six" forwards in the league. Since every team in the league isn't equal, it seems reasonable to me that some of the top contenders have more.

Only one team has scored more than Detroit. Big names like Gomez, Drury, and others are not scoring.

And you just tried to tell me is that I should be satisfied about having Samuelsson (who pretty much everyone here hates), Hudler (who our coach doesn't trust) and Cleary (who I do really like) as "top six" forwards on this team. That doesn't make the ole heart go pitter-patter. Forgive me.

I'll say it again. I'm a lot more worried about our scoring, should the top line cool off, and about our #2 d pairing (since Kronwall and Lilja suck) than I am about if Hasek will break out of this slump, which has led to a whopping 3 losses in regulation and still would have us on pace for a 100 point season.

Perhaps you haven't noticed in your blind rage, but I haven't once said Hasek can't break out, nor have I said his slump is our biggest issue.

[Offsides 21]

I didn't say he didn't make good saves. I said he didn't make truly spectacular saves...the kind that stop what should be a goal.

Dom does embelish his saves..as did Roy. It makes even mundane saves look like it was amazing. I actually define this as being of the the key differences in goaltenders who are considered 'elite'. Yeah, they have to have the numbers, but they also have to have the razzle dazzle...even though it accomplishes nothing.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Offsides

[OsGOD 3]

Dom does embelish his saves..as did Roy. It makes even mundane saves look like it was amazing. I actually define this as being of the the key differences in goaltenders who are considered 'elite'. Yeah, they have to have the numbers, but they also have to have the razzle dazzle...even though it accomplishes nothing.

Give 'em the old razzle dazzle. Razzle razzle 'em. Give 'em an act with lots of flash in it and the reaction will be passionate.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Dom does embelish his saves..as did Roy. It makes even mundane saves look like it was amazing. I actually define this as being of the the key differences in goaltenders who are considered 'elite'. Yeah, they have to have the numbers, but they also have to have the razzle dazzle...even though it accomplishes nothing.

That's just Dom's style. He says no one taught him to play goal, he taught himself. No kidding, right?

If you watch carefully, he's made many saves that are so subtle and fast, the announcers don't even see them or remark on it - the puck just stays out, somehow. Some of the saves on the gazillion highlight reel clips are logic-defying. Just because no one else is capable of playing like Dom doesn't mean much; it just means there's no one else who can do it.

Media types love to say Dom's never in positiion, but he actually usually is. He just might happen to be upside down at the time.

Dom didn't earn all the accolades he's won in the NHL by being flashy and shallow. Razzle dazzle is just part of the package, and I can't agree that it accomplishes nothing. It's part and parcel of what baffled some of the best players in the world for a decade or so. It's what filled the seats in Buffalo for many years. Dom's exciting to watch. So was Roy, much as I disliked him personally. As OS said, they've got the numbers to go along with the show.

I like unique and exciting! Who doesn't?

Besides some Wings fans, I mean.

Edited November 16, 2007 by puckloo39

[Offsides 21]

Hey, I'll admit razzle dazzle is exciting to watch...and that it does put butts in the seats..I just dislike that it's a factor of actual skill. Dom has the stats to show he's elite, that's just one of the things that bugs me.

[eva unit zero 271]

That's just Dom's style. He says no one taught him to play goal, he taught himself. No kidding, right?

If you watch carefully, he's made many saves that are so subtle and fast, the announcers don't even see them or remark on it - the puck just stays out, somehow. Some of the saves on the gazillion highlight reel clips are logic-defying. Just because no one else is capable of playing like Dom doesn't mean much; it just means there's no one else who can do it.

Media types love to say Dom's never in positiion, but he actually usually is. He just might happen to be upside down at the time.

Dom didn't earn all the accolades he's won in the NHL by being flashy and shallow. Razzle dazzle is just part of the package, and I can't agree that it accomplishes nothing. It's what baffled some of the best players in the world for a decade or so. It's what filled the seats in Buffalo for many years. Dom's exciting to watch. So was Roy, much as I disliked him personally. As OS said, they've got the numbers to go along with the show.

I like unique and exciting! Who doesn't?

Besides some Wings fans, I mean.

Razzle dazzle doesn't mean you're a better goaltender. If you embellish an average save, it doesn't turn it into a great save. Unfortunately, razzle dazzle (or lack thereof) has resulted in many goaltenders being overrated and others being underrated. Bill Ranford, Tommy Salo, Fred Brathwaite, Trevor Kidd, Marc Denis, Jocelyn Thibault are some of the thoroughly mediocre goaltenders who have been overrated due to flair. By contrast, there are goaltenders such as Chris Osgood, Mike Vernon, Martin Brodeur, Evgeni Nabokov are some very good goaltenders who have at times been called a 'product of a good defense' due to their relative lack of embellishment.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Hey, I'll admit razzle dazzle is exciting to watch...and that it does put butts in the seats..I just dislike that it's a factor of actual skill. Dom has the stats to show he's elite, that's just one of the things that bugs me.

well, that old dog has a lot of tricks, it's true. It's been his livelihood, and he's managed to make a pretty good career of it. Just in a slightly off-kilter fashion, compared to more traditional goalies who may be as good, technically, in most situations.

Dom's a character. Plain and simple, he is who he is. There aren't many left in the game in goal. I like the savant flair about Hasek, in particular, and how it meshes with his skills. You just don't get where he is by being a showboater, it is just his way. What can I say?

Razzle dazzle doesn't mean you're a better goaltender. If you embellish an average save, it doesn't turn it into a great save. Unfortunately, razzle dazzle (or lack thereof) has resulted in many goaltenders being overrated and others being underrated. Bill Ranford, Tommy Salo, Fred Brathwaite, Trevor Kidd, Marc Denis, Jocelyn Thibault are some of the thoroughly mediocre goaltenders who have been overrated due to flair. By contrast, there are goaltenders such as Chris Osgood, Mike Vernon, Martin Brodeur, Evgeni Nabokov are some very good goaltenders who have at times been called a 'product of a good defense' due to their relative lack of embellishment.

out of curiousity, Eva, where would you put Jose Theodore in the above list? Over rated? Product of good defense? Flash in the pan? Victim of circumstances?

[eva unit zero 271]

out of curiousity, Eva, where would you put Jose Theodore in the above list? Over rated? Product of good defense? Flash in the pan? Victim of circumstances?

Flash in the pan seems to be the best descriptor. His 2001-02 season was remarkable, winnign the Hart and Vezina. But he only won the Vezina on a tiebreaker, and Roy beat him out for the first team All-Star selection. Theodore only has had two other seasons with a save percentage better than .910, while he has been below .900 four times. He is currently carrying a .920, but has only played a handful of games. Notable stat: only twice in Theodore's career has his GAA been beneath 2.50; not coincidentally, it is in the same three seasons as his sv pct. was better than the .910 mark.

I think Theodore is most closely related to Bill Ranford in his circumstances; he had one stellar year, and although he embellishes it is not to a horrible degree. However, since people saw his 'amazing' play that one season, they give him the benefit of the doubt and think 'oh, he's not embellishing, he's just great.' Even when his actual performance says otherwise.

[Offsides 21]

Jose Theodore is in the Jim Carey category. Sort of 'where did he come from?' and then 'where did he go?'

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Jose Theodore is in the Jim Carey category. Sort of 'where did he come from?' and then 'where did he go?'

I don't know why but that made me bust out laughing. So true though. I seriously thought Jose would be really good for a long, long time and up there with the best when all was said and done. I definitely don't think that anymore, nor do I think he can revive his career.

[puckloo39 5,686]

I don't know why but that made me bust out laughing. So true though. I seriously thought Jose would be really good for a long, long time and up there with the best when all was said and done. I definitely don't think that anymore, nor do I think he can revive his career.

I have his McFarlane figurine... ebay? anyone?

That Hart/Vezina thing is harder to repeat than one would think, eh?

[Offsides 21]

I have his McFarlane figurine... ebay? anyone?

Me too. Haha.

I also have an Ozzie one..and...it's possessed or something. It doesn't really have anything to do with anything...but sometimes I find him in different places then I left him.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Me too. Haha.

I also have an Ozzie one..and...it's possessed or something. It doesn't really have anything to do with anything...but sometimes I find him in different places then I left him.

whoa? I have a Dom one that keep dropping his stick... but that just makes it more lifelike, I guess.

[2probert4 8]

Razzle dazzle doesn't mean you're a better goaltender. If you embellish an average save, it doesn't turn it into a great save. Unfortunately, razzle dazzle (or lack thereof) has resulted in many goaltenders being overrated and others being underrated. Bill Ranford, Tommy Salo, Fred Brathwaite, Trevor Kidd, Marc Denis, Jocelyn Thibault are some of the thoroughly mediocre goaltenders who have been overrated due to flair. By contrast, there are goaltenders such as Chris Osgood, Mike Vernon, Martin Brodeur, Evgeni Nabokov are some very good goaltenders who have at times been called a 'product of a good defense' due to their relative lack of embellishment.

Is this the Ev that used to hang out in the Yahoo NHL 1 room ?

[interminded 1]

. Bill Ranford, Tommy Salo, Fred Brathwaite, Trevor Kidd, Marc Denis, Jocelyn Thibault are some of the thoroughly mediocre goaltenders who have been overrated due to flair.

This means YOU think they are overrated due to their flair I take it ?

Cause I really don't remember Fred Brathwaite, Marc Denis or Jocelyn Thibault as beijng flashy goaltenders.

I'm not saying I would consider them as premier, eilte NHL goaltenders, but overrated ??? No.

In my book, Tommy Salo was a strong NHL goaltender who was internationally TOP 3 for many years.

Maybe you don't think he was of the topgoaltenders in his years, but to say he was overrated is hardly true.

[eva unit zero 271]

This means YOU think they are overrated due to their flair I take it ?

Cause I really don't remember Fred Brathwaite, Marc Denis or Jocelyn Thibault as beijng flashy goaltenders.

I'm not saying I would consider them as premier, eilte NHL goaltenders, but overrated ??? No.

In my book, Tommy Salo was a strong NHL goaltender who was internationally TOP 3 for many years.

Maybe you don't think he was of the topgoaltenders in his years, but to say he was overrated is hardly true.

Tommy Salo was overrated. A good example of this is the 2000-01 season.

Salo posted a 2.46 GAA and .904 save percentage in 2000-01. That compares to Chris Osgood's 2.69 and .903. As we all know, Osgood's play that season was generally considered pretty bad. Yet Salo, whose stats are not significantly better, finished 7th in Vezina voting with 7 points. Curtis Joseph posted a .913 and 2.39, and he was 8th with 4 points. Sean Burke posted a .922 and 2.27, and was 6th with 12 points.

[interminded 1]

Tommy Salo was overrated. A good example of this is the 2000-01 season.

Salo posted a 2.46 GAA and .904 save percentage in 2000-01. That compares to Chris Osgood's 2.69 and .903. As we all know, Osgood's play that season was generally considered pretty bad. Yet Salo, whose stats are not significantly better, finished 7th in Vezina voting with 7 points. Curtis Joseph posted a .913 and 2.39, and he was 8th with 4 points. Sean Burke posted a .922 and 2.27, and was 6th with 12 points.

EUZ, you say Tommy Salo was overrated.

fair enough, that's your opinion.

But what have Vezina rankings, whether they are legitimate rankings or not is not even the issue, to do with the fact that you think he's overrated ?

Curtis Joseph finished once place behind him with better stats, Sean Burke finished in front of him with better stats.

So ? It only means Salo has gotten more votes.

Does that mean he is overrated ??

Generally, I really do value your opinion EUZ, but you can't explain / justify / strengthen everything with statistics.

Sometimes it's just a gut feeling.

[edit: tori spelling]

Edited November 16, 2007 by interminded