Should We Alternate Goalies in the Playoffs?

[Packer487 3]

As much as I hate Dom, I do give him due credit for getting back on track. However, I still think Ozzie should get the nod in the playoffs because he is playing better than Dom. It makes ZERO sense to list reasons Dom should be the starter in the playoffs because he has done well in the past, but ignore his awful first few months. Ozzie has proven he is not only capable of starting and winning, but also that he deserves a shot in the playoffs.

Honestly though, let's break down Dom's "awful first few months". I mean, how many games are we REALLY talking about here? Osgood's worst start of the year--save percentage wise--was an .864 against Calgary where he gave up 3 goals on 22 shots, so let's use that as the standard for "bad".

In Dom's "awful first few months" he was below an .864 3 times, and it's the three games that you'd expect: The loss to Anaheim, the game against Chicago where we kept giving up short-handed breakaways, and the game against St. Louis where he got pulled (and which only one of the goals he gave up was truly bad).

Take out those three games--and I'm asking that you do that not to ignore them, but to show how it's really not even a handful of games we're talking about here with Dom being awful, let alone "a few months", and also that I don't have to forgive half his season to this point to make his numbers look really darn good--and you get the following:

More than 3 goals allowed:

Hasek: 0

Osgood: 1

More than 2 goals allowed:

Hasek: 5

Osgood: 4

Even just taking those three games out of the equation (not a full month and a half's worth) you get Dom's stats to be:

Record: 14-3-2

Goals Against Average: 1.71

Save Percentage: .919

I know, I know...still not as good as what Osgood has put up this year. But he's also clearly been playing much better hockey over the past month and a half than he did at the start of the season and I expect it to continue.

It's really only 3 games, not even a whole month and a half, and certainly not "a few months" that submarined his statistics--and I believe most everyone's view of his season thusfar. And in 2 of those games, he didn't exactly get a lot of help.

Regardless, I'm sticking to my guns. As I've said many times before, I don't think this team as is can win a Cup this year with Dom/Ozzie in net. The playoffs are a different story. Yes, the Wings are dominating the regular season. But lets not forget what happened in the 62 win campaign. The Wings need to fill the void that Markov left, and add some secondary scoring. Yes Flip and Rex are doing well, but they haven't proven anything in the playoffs. I realize they need an opportunity to prove themselves, but why not give them someone to take some pressure off? As far as the d corp goes, you can't rely of Kronwall to stay healthy, and past Lidstrom and Raffy, there is no one other than Kronwall who is capable of playing top 4 minutes. No Cheli is not, he is a great guy to fill the 5th/6th spot. Lilja is a turnover machine, and Lebda just isn't good enough either. To win the Cup you need a complete team. This Wings team is not complete. Again, REGULAR SEASON means nothing once he playoffs start.

I'd like to see them add as well and you make a lot of the same points I would make. Kronwall is still a question mark even though he's playing great hockey right now. And as much as I like what Huds and Flip are doing right now, we don't know if we can count on those guys in the playoffs--hell, it wasn't even a year ago that Babcock was scared to play Hudler on the road. I'll even go you one better: Zetterberg's health worries me. I wouldn't call him "injury prone" or anything, but it's alarming to me that he keeps having back troubles, and you never know if his wrist will flare up again.

This regular season has been incredible, but there's a lot of time left for teams to get better and for Detroit to cool off. I don't think it's close to a given that this team wins the Cup. I think they're going to have a great shot--even if we go into the playoffs as-is, and no matter which goalie we start--but there are questions I'd like to see answered and holes I'd like to see filled.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Packer487

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

My opinion of Hasek's poor start is based first and foremost on watching the games. But with that, Babcock has referenced his poor start, as has Hasek himself, not to mention hockey journalists.

But you're saying it's really only 3 games, 2 of which weren't really his fault??? No wonder puckloo is your biggest fan.

Manipulate the numbers (and reality) all you want. Dom started this season poorly. I think he would say that himself.

At the time the excuse was "Dom always starts slow" so even Hasek fans were acknowledging his poor performance, but now that he's seemingly back on track, revised history is that it didn't really happen at all.

Nice.

Edited January 10, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[dallas27 7]

Manipulate the numbers (and reality) all you want. Dom started this season poorly. I think he would say that himself.

"I'm not looking for excuses. I have to fight through this problem (not getting into the game mentally), or whatever you want to call it. I feel I can play much better"

-Dominik Hasek

[Yzerman#19 17]

oh and who the eff is billy smith... he must be a tool if Ozzie tied him

Are you a 12 year old or are you joking?

Try looking in the HOF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Smith

[puckloo39 5,686]

"I'm not looking for excuses. I have to fight through this problem (not getting into the game mentally), or whatever you want to call it. I feel I can play much better"

-Dominik Hasek

Dom always admits when he has a rough time, and takes responsibility for his play. He also is totally honest when the team shows up and makes his job easier. He's always done that. Not all goalies do. As for some of us not understanding that Dom's stats aren't his usual stellar numbers... well, duh!

Of course we know it... and if we somehow didn't know it, there are at least a dozen people here who will post them over and over and over until we "get" it. Save your fingers. We get it. We don't plan to go around pointing them out -- that's been done ad nauseum. Dom's done his best, and turned things around.

I am not speaking for Packer, but I think he's attempting to point out that some credit where it's due would be nice, even if it's not Ozzie we're talking about. Dom's rough beginning (which in truth was only a few games) is not an indication that he won't have a great 2nd half. Recent play certainly indicates that he will be fine, barring injury.

As usual, hyperbole rules in LGW -- so generalizations and assumptions about what many of us think are usually dead wrong, but still accepted, since it's posted as truth.

Carry on!

[OsGOD 3]

Are you a 12 year old or are you joking?

Try looking in the HOF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Smith

Ummm yeah how the hell could you take that statement of mine seriously.... i mean come on???

that was so tongue and cheek.. granted i did leave off the sarcasm (ninja) but yeah.... carry on peeps

Edited January 10, 2008 by OsGOD

[Offsides 21]

Are you a 12 year old or are you joking?

Try looking in the HOF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Smith

That was total tongue in cheek.

Billy Smith must suck if Ozzie could tie a record set by said Billy Smith....sarcasm...

Edited January 10, 2008 by Offsides

[OsGOD 3]

^^ Teehee

Can i be 12 again though??? Pretty Please???

Oh and btw, i am not used to my blueish sig yet

Edited January 10, 2008 by OsGOD

[dallas27 7]

I am not speaking for Packer, but I think he's attempting to point out that some credit where it's due would be nice, even if it's not Ozzie we're talking about.

Nobody is denying Hasek credit for his play as of late. And certaintly nobody can complain.

Dom's rough beginning (which in truth was only a few games) is not an indication that he won't have a great 2nd half. Recent play certainly indicates that he will be fine, barring injury.

But you're saying it's really only 3 games, 2 of which weren't really his fault??? No wonder puckloo is your biggest fan.

It's amazing how quickly a month and a half of bad play goes down to a few bad games just by trying to fiddle with numbers and say that the team didn't play well in front of him. s*** happens. He's paid to negate that. Hasek doesn't need to find excuses, he has other people to do that. And I hardly see only cracking an above .900 sv% two times for the first 11 games a "few bad games"

Edited January 10, 2008 by dallas27

[Packer487 3]

My opinion of Hasek's poor start is based first and foremost on watching the games. But with that, Babcock has referenced his poor start, as has Hasek himself, not to mention hockey journalists.

But you're saying it's really only 3 games, 2 of which weren't really his fault??? No wonder puckloo is your biggest fan.

That isn't what I said at all. I said that in this supposed awful start, he was only truly bad on three occasions and that even on those nights, the defense didn't help him out a whole lot, which they didn't. And you know that, since you watched the games.

The point was that if stats are so friggin' important (and they *must* be since we're deciding our playoff goalie solely based on them) then it wasn't really "a few bad months" of play, it was more like 3 truly bad games. Did he have any great games in there? No. He was very un-Dominator-like for awhile there, but I think it's completely and utterly wrong to say that he had a "few bad months" or even that he was *bad* for that entire stretch. He wasn't. He was very, very average, with 3 really bad games mixed in.

And now he's back to being great again.

Manipulate the numbers (and reality) all you want. Dom started this season poorly. I think he would say that himself.

At the time the excuse was "Dom always starts slow" so even Hasek fans were acknowledging his poor performance, but now that he's seemingly back on track, revised history is that it didn't really happen at all.

Nice.

And I've said it myself numerous times. But people are also saying/implying that he was awful for a solid month and a half (or more, for some reason) and it's just not true.

Like I said, he was very very average on most nights, with 3 bad games mixed in. And now it's taken care of. Those games were pretty clearly a blip on the radar. He said himself that he needed to play better, now he is, and there's no reason to suspect it won't continue. And come April, it's not going to mean a damn thing.

[Guest Jeremy88]

Whoa...I feel an idea coming

Ok...hear me out. Ok...We take Chris Osgood and Dominik Hasek...we build a teleportation machine. Then we make a second teleportation machine. Then we teleport the both of them from one teleport machine to the other teleport machine, and it will fuse them together to create the super goalie......Chrominik Hasgood!

[imisssergei 0]

Honestly though, let's break down Dom's "awful first few months". I mean, how many games are we REALLY talking about here? Osgood's worst start of the year--save percentage wise--was an .864 against Calgary where he gave up 3 goals on 22 shots, so let's use that as the standard for "bad".

In Dom's "awful first few months" he was below an .864 3 times, and it's the three games that you'd expect: The loss to Anaheim, the game against Chicago where we kept giving up short-handed breakaways, and the game against St. Louis where he got pulled (and which only one of the goals he gave up was truly bad).

Take out those three games--and I'm asking that you do that not to ignore them, but to show how it's really not even a handful of games we're talking about here with Dom being awful, let alone "a few months", and also that I don't have to forgive half his season to this point to make his numbers look really darn good--and you get the following:

More than 3 goals allowed:

Hasek: 0

Osgood: 1

More than 2 goals allowed:

Hasek: 5

Osgood: 4

Even just taking those three games out of the equation (not a full month and a half's worth) you get Dom's stats to be:

Record: 14-3-2

Goals Against Average: 1.71

Save Percentage: .919

I know, I know...still not as good as what Osgood has put up this year. But he's also clearly been playing much better hockey over the past month and a half than he did at the start of the season and I expect it to continue.

It's really only 3 games, not even a whole month and a half, and certainly not "a few months" that submarined his statistics--and I believe most everyone's view of his season thusfar. And in 2 of those games, he didn't exactly get a lot of help.

If you are going to eliminate Dom's 3 worst games, in order to make a legit comparison to Osgood, you must do the same.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Unless one of the goalies is just complete is in the s**tter with his play just before the playoffs start for a long stretch of games, it doesn't matter who plays in the playoffs to me, based off this season and past history. Play one of them the whole way, do a playoff tandem, I don't care.

Hasek proved he still had it last year doing his part to help the Wings go deep in the playoffs and he has plenty of past credentials to show he still has it and is currently around the top of his game it looks like.

Osgood has proved this year that this has been his best one so far without question and he has plenty of past credentials to show that he can be a #1 goalie without much difficulty. One shaky game tonight (and that's even questionable due to bad defense and nutty bounces of the puck all game) doesn't change that whatsoever.

They both have a wealth of experience and have what it takes mentally.

Again, it doesn't matter to me. I like Hasek. I like Osgood. I don't have any personal preference or special liking towards one over the other. It doesn't matter what kind of statistical charts or 46 page essays any extreme fan throws at me to prove their case for either goaltender. I don't care, and while I certainly think it's cool and can appreciate that some can be big fans of a specific athlete, flooding my brain with stats and bias with these two isn't going to make me care.

Why? Because I still know that both goalies are still extremely solid and capable (and also see 2nd and 3rd blurbs above), and we're lucky to have BOTH of them in spite of everybody's promotional pitches. I could care less about the pitches people make.

It can seriously really be that simple even if you are a huge fan of one of the goalies. It still baffles me to this day why some have to make it so difficult in here bringing one goalie down to bring the other one up, or even just slight either of the goalies at all when they cannot realistically play much better right now. Quit slighting either goalie and understand that the Wings current situation in net, especially with both of them playing pretty damned well right now, is a damned good situation to have.

Osgood :goalie1: + Hasek :goalie2: = VERY GOOD THINGS for the Detroit Red Wings

Edited January 11, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[Z and D for the C 712]

and it shows in his work ethic

You're right. Dom is the laziest player in the world. He never works as hard as he can, ever.

Stop defending Dom, he is still the same player that had a horrible start,

And all this time I was thinking it was someone else? Darn.

Yes obviously he is the same player, except his play has improved dramatically since the start of the eason.

if not for Osgood picking up his play then Wings would not be the #1 team in the NHL.

I agree. It was great that Ozzie played awesome while Hasek was getting his game back.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Z and D for the C

[Salviaman 104]

You're right. Dom is the laziest player in the world. He never works as hard as he can, ever.

And all this time I was thinking it was someone else? Darn.

Yes obviously he is the same player, except his play has improved dramatically since the start of the eason.

I agree. It was great that Ozzie played awesome while Hasek was getting his game back.

I never mentioned that Hasek was lazy, I was referring to OSGOOD'S WORK ETHIC. I know that Hasek trains his ass off all the time but still, you can not DENY that Osgood looks alot sharper than Hasek has so far throughout this season. Osgood wanted to prove he could be a #1 goalie again and has. Hasek works just as hard if not harder than Osgood, which is why he won a NHL MVP award back in 96 and has won several Vezina trophies... but for some reason it has just not been his best year, and he would be the one to say so himself.

Yes, Dom is the same player that had a bad start and if you remember back in '02 Hasek stood on his head after going down 0-2 games to a underachieving, youthful Vancouver team. I believed in Dom back then more than I believe in him now due to his sloppy start, granted he has had 2 shutout's in a row but his team played unbelievable in both of those games to help him out. But granted, he is an amazing athlete and I would much rather have him in our net than ED BELFOUR.

I know Hasek has regained his old form(or some streak of luck) but I would much rather see Ozzie in net for the playoffs than Hasek ever since I watched the Wings lose to the Ducks last year. I hope they both finish the year strong, solid, and ready to play at the elite level of goal tending that has won them both STANLEY CUPS!!! No matter what I am a Red Wings fan, it is only natural to voice my opinion about who I thinks should be the starting goalie for our team, just like all of you have these hockey boards to message your opinions on whether or not any of you want to bash Sammy or be Lilja crushers.

All in all..... LETS GO RED WINGS!!!!

Edited January 11, 2008 by Salviaman

[Z and D for the C 712]

It's not like it's a different team when Ozzie is in goal. The team played great when he got his two shutouts as well. And for the record, Dom's last two games have been 3-0 and 1-0. We played good, but hardly unbelievable.

Regardless, last post of mine in this thread.

[puckloo39 5,686]

It's not like it's a different team when Ozzie is in goal. The team played great when he got his two shutouts as well. And for the record, Dom's last two games have been 3-0 and 1-0. We played good, but hardly unbelievable.

Regardless, last post of mine in this thread.

mine, too. You have to love it when fans here think Dom's come-back and resiliance against the odds is "luck" rather than dedication, drive and talent. Let me see: Ozzie wins because he's great, Dom wins because the team is great. Dom's losses have nothing to do with the team, they are all him. Goals against Ozzie are never his fault, it's the team.

I was a bit confused, but I think I've got it now.

Here's a link, for those who want to see what the rest of the sports world thinks about Hasek. Oddly, those who seem to dislike him the most are Red Wings fans. Go figure.

Dom

Edited January 11, 2008 by puckloo39

[dallas27 7]

If you are going to eliminate Dom's 3 worst games, in order to make a legit comparison to Osgood, you must do the same.

Nah, you know for a fact that isn't true (at least to him)

[Packer487 3]

If you are going to eliminate Dom's 3 worst games, in order to make a legit comparison to Osgood, you must do the same.

Nah, you know for a fact that isn't true (at least to him)

Or you both could completely and utterly miss the point (again) that apart from 3 games this season, which he's been ripped for time and time again, the goalies have been pretty damn even.

Hasek: 1.71 goals against, .919 save percentage

Osgood: 1.82 goals against, .928 save percentage

Again, the point is that even though Osgood has been excellent for the entire season, which is the center piece of your whole argument, Hasek has put up very similar numbers for a very high percentage of his starts, even if his overall numbers don't look nearly as good. I'd also point out that Dom's nights against Chicago and St. Louis were quite similar to the night Osgood experienced last night which no one, myself included, blamed him for. It wasn't so when the other goalie was in....

I'm curious why would I remove numbers from Osgood's stats when the whole premise of your argument that Osgood should start is that he's been amazing for the season as a whole, whereas Hasek apparently sucked for half the games we've played thusfar (or more)? But to be "fair", here ya go:

Osgood (with his 3 worst games in save percentage removed--if you'd prefer, you could take out his 3 worst in GAA and his GAA would go slightly down, as would his save percentage):

1.55 goals against average, .937 save percentage

Not skewed as badly, but that's really not the point anyway. But even when you take into account the worst each goalie has had to offer, the actual spread between them (.29 in GAA and .026 in save percentage) shrinks to .16 in goals against and .018 in save percentage...which illustrates my point perfectly. You take out their respective three worst starts and the margin in goals against is almost halved, and a third is whacked off the save percentage gap.

I even spelled this out for you in my original post: I'm not asking you to forget those games happened. All I'm trying to show is that it wasn't an "awful few months" or even so much an "awful month and a half". It's basically three games we're talking about here which skewed his stats badly. Dom's been well under 2 goals a night for the rest of the time, including the rest of his early struggles and his numbers apart from those nights aren't that dissimilar from Ozzie's. It's just interesting to see considering the way one of them has been fellated the entire season and the other one skewered for a big portion.

But it's clear neither of you have a desire to open your minds to it, which is fine. Like I said, there's a lot of time left in the season, and this issue will probably get decided for us at some point, either through injury or the play of one of the goalies slipping.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Packer487

[Guest Jeremy88]

I can't believe no one likes my idea to morph our two goalies into one supergoalie

[irishtemper14+25 11]

I can't believe no one likes my idea to morph our two goalies into one supergoalie

what if we sewed them together and made them siamese twins...so they covered the entire net

[MonkeyGoalie 14]

Even though I think it is dumb to talk about the playoff right now I want to put something out there that no one has stated yet (I don't think anyone has since I didn't read all the posts). If both of our goalies are playing this way up to the beginning of the playoff I personally think that Dom will be the starting goalie only because he is Detroit's starting goalie this season. But hey none of us have a say in who gets to play, that's up to Babcock.

Edited January 12, 2008 by MonkeyGoalie

[Packer487 3]

I can't believe no one likes my idea to morph our two goalies into one supergoalie

With our luck we'd get the worst of each of them: A goalie that gives up goals from center ice who beats the crap out of reporters and fellow inline hockey players.

[Jocu 0]

With our luck we'd get the worst of each of them: A goalie that gives up goals from center ice who beats the crap out of reporters and fellow inline hockey players.

If we wanted to go that route, I hear Emery is going to be looking for something to do soon.

[imisssergei 0]

Or you both could completely and utterly miss the point (again) that apart from 3 games this season, which he's been ripped for time and time again, the goalies have been pretty damn even.

Hasek: 1.71 goals against, .919 save percentage

Osgood: 1.82 goals against, .928 save percentage

Again, the point is that even though Osgood has been excellent for the entire season, which is the center piece of your whole argument, Hasek has put up very similar numbers for a very high percentage of his starts, even if his overall numbers don't look nearly as good. I'd also point out that Dom's nights against Chicago and St. Louis were quite similar to the night Osgood experienced last night which no one, myself included, blamed him for. It wasn't so when the other goalie was in....

I'm curious why would I remove numbers from Osgood's stats when the whole premise of your argument that Osgood should start is that he's been amazing for the season as a whole, whereas Hasek apparently sucked for half the games we've played thusfar (or more)? But to be "fair", here ya go:

Osgood (with his 3 worst games in save percentage removed--if you'd prefer, you could take out his 3 worst in GAA and his GAA would go slightly down, as would his save percentage):

1.55 goals against average, .937 save percentage

Not skewed as badly, but that's really not the point anyway. But even when you take into account the worst each goalie has had to offer, the actual spread between them (.29 in GAA and .026 in save percentage) shrinks to .16 in goals against and .018 in save percentage...which illustrates my point perfectly. You take out their respective three worst starts and the margin in goals against is almost halved, and a third is whacked off the save percentage gap.

I even spelled this out for you in my original post: I'm not asking you to forget those games happened. All I'm trying to show is that it wasn't an "awful few months" or even so much an "awful month and a half". It's basically three games we're talking about here which skewed his stats badly. Dom's been well under 2 goals a night for the rest of the time, including the rest of his early struggles and his numbers apart from those nights aren't that dissimilar from Ozzie's. It's just interesting to see considering the way one of them has been fellated the entire season and the other one skewered for a big portion.

But it's clear neither of you have a desire to open your minds to it, which is fine. Like I said, there's a lot of time left in the season, and this issue will probably get decided for us at some point, either through injury or the play of one of the goalies slipping.

God, I can't believing I'm even bothering to respond to this. But here I go....

In short, the reason you have to take out Ozzie's 3 worst games if you take out Dom's 3 worst games is to make an equal comparison.

Let me put it into terms you might be able to relate to.

Both you and I are up for a promotion at work. You've worked there a few years longer than I have, but both of us are senior employees. This year, you slacked off a lot for the first few months, missing days for no good reason. While I worked my ass off, but I did take a few sick days. You have lately picked things up are started to work a lot harder, and not miss days for no good reason.

So the boss sits down to evaluate both of us. He looks at you first, sees your rocky start, but also you recent change back to your old ways. Then he looks at me, and sees I've had a few slips, but nothing too serious.

Tell me how it would make ANY sense for the boss to throw out your poor performances to evaluate us? You can't because it doesn't. Of course you are going to look better than you really have been. So, for sake of LOGIC, he must also throw out an equal amount of my slip ups.

Make sense? Or do I need to break it down further?

It has nothing to do with me 'opening my mind' and everything to do with you having a man crush on Dom.

I've said it before, I hate Dom. But I can admit when he has a good game, and I give him his due credit. On the flip side, I'll be right there yelling when he has a s***ty game. But I don't lobby for Ozzie because in games played after 7pm, on a Wednesday in the Pacific time zone, when the Wings are wearing the red jersey and the opposition doesn't have at least 3 right handed defensemen, he has a .001 better save percentage than Dom.

Seriously, your boat is sinking, and I know the captain is supposed to go down with his ship and all, but man....