Anyone else tired of the Samuelson bashing?

[Z and D for the C 712]

He needs to work on his aim (or perhaps just WHERE he shoots it), and take less stupid shots. He's not a bad player, but he just needs to work on those couple points. It's so aggravating when he fires it RIGHT to the goalies chest, no rebound chance for that. I guess it's nice when you're looking for a stoppage of play, anyway. He does have a great shot though. Right now, the way he's playing (if he could show some improvement that'd be great) I don't see him as good enough for the 1st or 2nd line player, but I think he's "too good" for a third or fourth line role. He's not a bad player, but I just don't think he fits well in the Wings machine.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Z and D for the C

[Grittzkey 1]

tired?

nah just getting started.

[wingnut40 176]

Sammy's probably the reason why we're always out shooting other teams. That's a plus right?

[dicksmack 33]

Sammy is like Lilja, ya's takes the good with the bad...

Anybody who can cut Lilja slack and can't do the same for Sammy is puzzling. We all know he can fire it, but his shooting % sits at around a finski... But if he gets 15 to 20 goals for us and can help out in the post-season again he's more than justified his pricetag. Maybe a few minutes less a game, but Sammy can be dangerous at times.

I think the Wings shoot for the crest a lot when they are protecting a lead or in a really tight game. I think it's part of the puck possession game plan, sometimes, as you end up getting an offensive zone face-off when you have no other play available. When you have several good face-off men, you then tend to have offensive-zone puck possession more than the other team. Sammy is just more accurate for the crest shots than ANYBODY, that's all.

[55fan 5,133]

I have to hand it to you for starting this thread. I truely respect people who are willing to come to the defense of a player when he is being bashed and doesn't deserve it.

Last summer, when I joined here, it was Kronwall, then Ozzie took some licks. Now Hasek, Sammy... who's next?

Kronwall, Ozzie and Hasek are now playing wonderfully.

I hope Sammy comes back up as well. It's tough to be a Wing in a slump. All of a sudden people are calling for your hide.

Hopefully all the effort he puts into shooting the puck will soon result in goals. Flip had a dry spell at the beginning of the season.

Good for you for defending him. I chicken out once the name-calling starts. (Sorry, Kronner, I should have kept talking- I'd be saying "I Told You So" right about now.)

[interminded 1]

I guess everybody got their fair share of bashing:

Hasek (for playing bad, for playing good, for playing at all)

Osgood (for playing bad, for playing good, for playing at all)

Holland (for not re-signing Datsyuk fast enough)

Datsyuk (for not signing fast enough)

Lang (for being Robert Lang)

Kronwall (for developing to slowly, for being injury-prone, for being injured)

Rafalski (for 2 turnovers in 43 games)

Chelios (for not being Nick Lidstrom)

Lilja (for not being Nick Lidstrom)

Hudler (for not being Zetterberg)

Cleary (for not being Hudler)

Lebda (for making mistakes (how dare he !!!))

Draper (for not being more like Kris "Stanley Cup Championship Team 1997 & 1998" Draper)

Maltby (for not being more like Kirk "Stanley Cup Championship Team 1997 & 1998" Maltby)

Drake (for being 38)

So don't worry about Samuelsson ... it will pass and the next one to trash will presents itself.. probably Johan Franzen for missing a penalty shot..

{edit: spelling}

Edited January 10, 2008 by interminded

[Hank 0]

I have absolutely no problems with Sammy being on our 3rd or 4th lines. But when he's up on the top 2, he's not very effective.

And with a Cap situation, I can see a prospect doing just as much as he does with half the pay.

There are certain players on this roster that act like glue. Sure they don't score 40 goals or produce on the PP, but they're great in the locker room and seem to keep the team gelled together. I simply don't see Sammy as being one of these types of guys.

Out of all our regular playing forwards, I would say Sammy's departure would have the least impact.

I don't care if he's on the roster, but keep him on the bottom 2 lines. And if Holland or Babcock thinks a kid in GR could do better, then by all means bring him up and dump Sammy.

I really don't care about him either way.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Hank

[58Miles2Joe 12]

Watching the Wings is like listening to a beautiful orchestra with Samuelson's play being one violin out of tune. Everything is going along like a symphony and then "wraaank" there's a dumb shot, or "squeeek" blue line bobble.

Consider that Samuelson's role, or niche, is very similar to Hull's or Shanny's and then compare him to them. You could forgive them for their bloopers because they'd score gwg's when you needed them. In this light Sammy's best attribute is that he's relatively cheap.

Oh, and in our list of previously bashed I want to invoke my personal favorite: Jason Williams. Gawd he drove me nuts.

[Opie 308]

There are only a couple of reasons why Sammy made the top 6 and it is not his ability to score 30-40 goals, as we all know he can't.

Here is a quick list of Why I think the wings put him in the positions they do:

1. He is a right handed shot, most of the wings top 6 is Lefty.

2. He has a powerful shot, Babs wants his players going hard to the net and shooting more, Sammy can do that, well at least the shooting part, I haven't seen him go to the net as well as Flip is starting to pick up that skill.

3. Him there allowed the wings to keep Cleary on the checking line which he was doing a great job at and breaking up that line would have been bad for the team (IMO) weeks ago.

4. Him on the second line allowed D-Z-H to start the year off together, otherwise that line or the checking line has to split up.

5. Who Else, seriously before Cleary stepped it up these past couple of weeks who else was going to play that position?

PP

1. His Shot. None of the young Blueliners except Kronwall really have a tremendous shot from the point, Lilja has shown it once in a while, and it usually results in a goal when he does, but he is reluctant. Babs is trying to save Cheli some minutes so I don't see him there.

2. He has offensive upside, he has shown he can score, and on the PP where better to try and get a guy some goals.

3. Who else, seriously, who, who else is proven back there?

Right now with this team he is best served to play on a line that is Kopecky - Franzen - Sammy, especially if the top two lines can perform with the new look. That puts him on the fourth line, he would not be the defensive specialist on the line, and if they do get set up in the zone Franzen is a big body to go to the net and screen his shot.

Everyone talks about his shot being so inaccurate or that he can't hit anything but the chest protector. Do any of you notice the D when he shoots or are you just so intent on finding cracks in his game. What is the new favorite Defensive position for the League, everyone settle up in the slot and try to block shots or give the shooter only bad shots, now that doesn't explain some of his 3 on 2 shots, but none of us know what Babs is saying to him on the bench. And if we use Huds/Cleary as a basis for an inference if Sammy was doing something Babs was remotely unhappy with his playing time would have reflected that. And the Cleary part of it, when he does something the coach likes or has been preaching, he is rewarded with more ice time and better line mates.

But it seems like I have been the lone Sammy defender on here until this thread (there have been others, but they seemed to fade in the threads), I am not the guys biggest fan and he has lots of room for improvement, but he is not as bad as most here make him out.

My favorite by far is "He can't pass" makes me chuckle everytime. Because sure a team that over the past 15 years has been the model and definition for puck possession and passing would put a guy on the ice with heavy minutes who is incapable of passing. Great stuff!!

Hank, what prospect right now in the Wings Org can step up and fill his role, Who? Who can you guarantee me will step up and play 16:00 a game, and still be a +9, Who? And I agree IF Holland, Babs and CO thought there was someone down there they would replace him. They don't seem like the type to play a guy because they have a soft spot for them, even Yzerman saw less time under Babs (How much of that was Stevie admitting he wasn't in shape for top 6 minutes we will never know).

I have seen many of your posts and respect you as a poster, so don't take this as I am attacking you but what prospect can give you what Sammy is giving you, didn't most people think that would be Grigs, so much for prospect rankings. (I know, I know the accident is why he showed up to camp out of shape and unable to play N. American Hockey, or was it his attitude and work ethic. I guess that is still up in the air).

[Opie 308]

Watching the Wings is like listening to a beautiful orchestra with Samuelson's play being one violin out of tune. Everything is going along like a symphony and then "wraaank" there's a dumb shot, or "squeeek" blue line bobble.

Consider that Samuelson's role, or niche, is very similar to Hull's or Shanny's and then compare him to them. You could forgive them for their bloopers because they'd score gwg's when you needed them. In this light Sammy's best attribute is that he's relatively cheap.

Oh, and in our list of previously bashed I want to invoke my personal favorite: Jason Williams. Gawd he drove me nuts.

A. He is not supposed to be Hull or Shanny, they were expected to be top goal scorers and point producers, he is expected to be the 6 best forward, and until recently he was just that, I believe Cleary has moved into that position right now.

B. Plus what a lot of you forget is that Sammy spent a lot of time the past two seasons centered by either Z or Lang, those are two pretty good centers, one is showing to be great. But then you put Flip in his line and Huds, two youngsters that he has no experience with and he is used to playing with higher end centers.

C. He is cheap and he scores goals, and in the salary cap era, that is huge.

There are a few things that from being an avid football fan I picked up about the salary cap.

1. Soon, 2-3- years, there will be no more rental player situations. It will cost too much. Now don't take that as money cost. In the new era prospects and picks are valued a lot higher than in the non cap structure. You can't just go out and replace prospects and picks with Veterans, a team can't do that and stay under the cap.

2. Prospects and Picks will carry tremendous value in trades, eventually you could see guys like Kindl, Meech being traded for top tier players because of the new value associated with young cheap talent.

[FinRedWing 172]

Our prospects would be cheap too.

But if I've understood correctly: None of them would be able to score 7 goals in 40 games,with almost 16 minutes of ice time?

If that's the case,all of them must suck and thank God we have Sammy then.

[Opie 308]

Our prospects would be cheap too.

But if I've understood correctly: None of them would be able to score 7 goals in 40 games,with almost 16 minutes of ice time?

If that's the case,all of them must suck and thank God we have Sammy then.

I assume that is sarcasm, so instead of just throwing around insults who would you put out there from within the system that can produce like that. Because if babs takes your idea and all of the sudden the team tanks, people that take the same mentality as you would be all over this board bitching about babs ruining the season. Failing to admit that they got what they asked for.

But I mean you are right the Wings should screw around with the lines and bring in prospects instead of proven players, I mean it is obvious that they are struggling this year and if they don't change something soon they may miss the playoffs!! And after all that is what is important right winning the cup right. Oh know it isn't, it is about appealing to the fans wanting to see fights, and making them happy by sitting guys who they don't like. Imagine if Babs read these boards last year and benched that lazy and sucky Lang, because it is not like his playing is the reason that the wings won a pivotal OT playoff game!

[bringback91 2]

Yeah, I'm sick of it. Really though the true "bashers" are usually the same few people, and it's pretty stupid. Alot are the same people who make equally dumb remarks in a positive light about certain players weather it be simply a "fighter" or a grinder or a star player on the Wings or another team. Way too much credit for some, too much critisim on others. Really there's only one reason he's usually in the top six.....

1. That's where Babcock wants him.

If you have a hard time with that, why hate on Sammy, he don't make up the lines. And personally I think he's one of the top six offensive forwards on the team, seems like simple math to me.

I guess we'll all just overlook last years playoffs where the guy played great. Just funny to me though, all i ever used to read was, "regular season means nothing to Wings fans, what counts is the playoffs" but apperantly that only extends to certain players when it suits some peoples "arguements".

On the whole it's silly, I think most of it is more of an attempt to come across as clever and an attempt to post a "zinger" more than actual hockey anaylsis about said player, in this case the new whipping boy Sammy. I guess some find it funny, but that to me seems like more of a reflection of the posters age or maturity as opposed to someone looking for some light hearted fun like some claim. And as most know once that ball gets rolling others join the flock and join in the "fun". The teams playing great right now, and I haven't found much to complain about watching this team outside the color commentary when Mickey's not doing the games. But I understand i guess, sometimes it's just never enough for some people.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I've thought about this some more, and I think it'd be a good idea to play him with Maltby and Draper. Those 2 guys are great defensively, so Sammy wouldn't be a big liability in his own zone. Likewise, neither of those guys would mind if Sammy shoots a lot, because they don't take that many shots. It's a win-win situation. Who knows, maybe their grinding style will rub off on him a little bit.

[Opie 308]

Bringback91

I couldn't agree more, this team could be 44-0 and some people would still complain!

[FinRedWing 172]

I assume that is sarcasm, so instead of just throwing around insults who would you put out there from within the system that can produce like that. Because if babs takes your idea and all of the sudden the team tanks, people that take the same mentality as you would be all over this board bitching about babs ruining the season. Failing to admit that they got what they asked for.

But I mean you are right the Wings should screw around with the lines and bring in prospects instead of proven players, I mean it is obvious that they are struggling this year and if they don't change something soon they may miss the playoffs!! And after all that is what is important right winning the cup right. Oh know it isn't, it is about appealing to the fans wanting to see fights, and making them happy by sitting guys who they don't like. Imagine if Babs read these boards last year and benched that lazy and sucky Lang, because it is not like his playing is the reason that the wings won a pivotal OT playoff game!

It wasn't sarcasm (this time).

I was just thinking that seven goals is ok,but it's not huge.

Given the fact that he also plays on PP.

I simply wanted to know from wiser fans that do we have a prospect who could score 7 goals in 40 games?

I think he has "too many" assists for any of our prospects to get to those numbers,but 7 goals doesn't sound impossible.

I know that the Red Wings like to develop players slowly (Hudler for example),but I must say it would be worrying if there isn't anyone in our system who'd match Sammy's goals.

And I agree Babs shouldn't do any experiments this season.

[Opie 308]

It wasn't sarcasm (this time).

I was just thinking that seven goals is ok,but it's not huge.

Given the fact that he also plays on PP.

I simply wanted to know from wiser fans that do we have a prospect who could score 7 goals in 40 games?

I think he has "too many" assists for any of our prospects to get to those numbers,but 7 goals doesn't sound impossible.

I know that the Red Wings like to develop players slowly (Hudler for example),but I must say it would be worrying if there isn't anyone in our system who'd match Sammy's goals.

And I agree Babs shouldn't do any experiments this season.

Sorry for my approach in reply then!

[58Miles2Joe 12]

I've thought about this some more, and I think it'd be a good idea to play him with Maltby and Draper. Those 2 guys are great defensively, so Sammy wouldn't be a big liability in his own zone. Likewise, neither of those guys would mind if Sammy shoots a lot, because they don't take that many shots. It's a win-win situation. Who knows, maybe their grinding style will rub off on him a little bit.

hear, hear !

[russianswede919293 95]

Samuelsson is a guy that deep down I really like but he always disappoints me. I think that the problem is that his first year here he really was great and then he settled back into his usual statistics. His highest goal total prior to his first year in Detroit was 10 goals and his highest point total was 24. He still has been playing better than his pre lockout self for the Wings but not what he did that first year. HOWEVER he would have matched his 2 years ago total last year but he got hurt and missed quite a few games. Now this season he has truly been a disappointment but partly because he played on a line with Hudles and Filpulla when they were still cold and hasn't been playing with them as much now that they are heating up. I think that he is a mediocore player that is at best a 3rd line player but he fills a spot on the second line that allows the team to pay 20 million dollars on three players and thus he is worth what he is here for. Overall I like Sammy, but would love to see him be replaced at the deadline, preferably by Fedorov, but that is a different thread.

[WingNutt 12]

Yeah, I'm sick of it. Really though the true "bashers" are usually the same few people, and it's pretty stupid. Alot are the same people who make equally dumb remarks in a positive light about certain players weather it be simply a "fighter" or a grinder or a star player on the Wings or another team. Way too much credit for some, too much critisim on others. Really there's only one reason he's usually in the top six.....

1. That's where Babcock wants him.

If you have a hard time with that, why hate on Sammy, he don't make up the lines. And personally I think he's one of the top six offensive forwards on the team, seems like simple math to me.

I guess we'll all just overlook last years playoffs where the guy played great. Just funny to me though, all i ever used to read was, "regular season means nothing to Wings fans, what counts is the playoffs" but apperantly that only extends to certain players when it suits some peoples "arguements".

On the whole it's silly, I think most of it is more of an attempt to come across as clever and an attempt to post a "zinger" more than actual hockey anaylsis about said player, in this case the new whipping boy Sammy. I guess some find it funny, but that to me seems like more of a reflection of the posters age or maturity as opposed to someone looking for some light hearted fun like some claim. And as most know once that ball gets rolling others join the flock and join in the "fun". The teams playing great right now, and I haven't found much to complain about watching this team outside the color commentary when Mickey's not doing the games. But I understand i guess, sometimes it's just never enough for some people.

well said bb91, I had a feeling you would show up to this thread sooner or later, yourself along with a few others, as I always come to the aid of players that are getting bashed and don't deserve it. We share the same mindset when it comes to that, and the sadest thing this time is the Wings are winning and people still find something to complain about. I don't understand if its out of bordem or if they are just really unhappy people. I am not saying crticism is out of line by all means, point out the guys flaws and what we could improve on thats what talking hockey is all about, but when people just follow the leader of another poster that has a grudge or simply just hates a player, then it makes everyone look foolish. I agree that Sammy has his moments where I'm say to myself what is this guy thinking, but he makes plays sometimes and I'm like Wow ! didn't know Sammy had that in him. So I try and give him a break, I gave Lilly Pad ( the old whipping boy name for him haha funny right?) a break when he pretty much gave the puck to Selanne on a silver platter to go and score and pretty much elimate us from a well played hard fought playoffs. No hes a human and humans make mistakes,

except this time, noone can say I'm just sticking up for Sammy because hes my favorite player because hes not and far from it. and they can't say I'm sticking up for him because hes Russian because hes not, and they can't say even that is because hes a Wing because if it was any other team, the guy still shouldn't deserve the worst player ever what a joke trade him now.

I know it will happen again, and I tend to ignore it now for the most part, I kept my mouth shut with the Hasek bashing even though it was hard being a Goaltender myself and knowing how half the people trash talking don't know squat about playing goal. The sammy thing was getting out of hand. so I had to say something and more or less wondered if I was the only one getting tired of hearing about how crappy a player he was, we can come up with better thread topics than that can't we?

Like the discussion going guys, and its good to know most of you understand what I was trying to get across with this thread.

[OsGOD 3]

is commenting about his 135 shots and 7 goals and whooping .052 Scoring % bashing him? or is he in fact kinda bringing it on himself by shooting blanks... idk

carry on

[Opie 308]

is commenting about his 135 shots and 7 goals and whooping .052 Scoring % bashing him? or is he in fact kinda bringing it on himself by shooting blanks... idk

carry on

Osgod, seriously dude, you know better than that, no one is saying that making a statement like he needs to shoot better or take better shots is bashing him. It is the people who yell and scream saying he is useless, can't pass, is a waste of space, blah blah, blah.

Saying his shooting percentage sucks Donkey Dink is not bashing him it is stating the truth, it is as much about how people are expressing their displeasure with him more than saying he is not playing well.

If there was one thread that was title Sammy is playing bad, or why is sammy struggling this year I don't think this thread would exist.

It is the:

Sammy is useless, Sammy doesn't fit in, Sammy is a waste, Sammy is the ANTI_CHRIST threads that get old and are getting these responses. As some one said earlier it has a lot to do with Maturity, some people are mature at 12 and others are immature at 57.

[bringback91 2]

well said bb91, I had a feeling you would show up to this thread sooner or later, yourself along with a few others, as I always come to the aid of players that are getting bashed and don't deserve it. We share the same mindset when it comes to that, and the sadest thing this time is the Wings are winning and people still find something to complain about. I don't understand if its out of bordem or if they are just really unhappy people. I am not saying crticism is out of line by all means, point out the guys flaws and what we could improve on thats what talking hockey is all about, but when people just follow the leader of another poster that has a grudge or simply just hates a player, then it makes everyone look foolish. I agree that Sammy has his moments where I'm say to myself what is this guy thinking, but he makes plays sometimes and I'm like Wow ! didn't know Sammy had that in him. So I try and give him a break, I gave Lilly Pad ( the old whipping boy name for him haha funny right?) a break when he pretty much gave the puck to Selanne on a silver platter to go and score and pretty much elimate us from a well played hard fought playoffs. No hes a human and humans make mistakes,

except this time, noone can say I'm just sticking up for Sammy because hes my favorite player because hes not and far from it. and they can't say I'm sticking up for him because hes Russian because hes not, and they can't say even that is because hes a Wing because if it was any other team, the guy still shouldn't deserve the worst player ever what a joke trade him now.

I know it will happen again, and I tend to ignore it now for the most part, I kept my mouth shut with the Hasek bashing even though it was hard being a Goaltender myself and knowing how half the people trash talking don't know squat about playing goal. The sammy thing was getting out of hand. so I had to say something and more or less wondered if I was the only one getting tired of hearing about how crappy a player he was, we can come up with better thread topics than that can't we?

Like the discussion going guys, and its good to know most of you understand what I was trying to get across with this thread.

Yeah I still read most of the site and threads on the regular, but outside of today rarely if ever post anymore. It just started to seem more annoying and alot less fun. One reason for that is exactly what you were talking about in your original post. There's nothing wrong with critism, like Osgod's post. No, if it's bothering you enough that you want to comment who's to stop you? But he of all people should recognize unwarrented bashing over critsim as I'm assuming one of his favorite players is Osgood. And even if your the type of person that has to totally rip on someone for whatever reason, okay state/slander your case, but it's when it's piled on and a daily occurance of not only sammy bashing but other worn out topics that make a great and informative site stale and unreadable. As far as lilja goes, that seires wasn't his fault, hell he was mins. away from becoming a hero, boy would those threads have been sweet to read all the flip floppers on them. Besides, where was everyone else, why was the last man bringing up the puck out of the zone? Why was the support breaking up ice before the zone was cleared? They teach you that crap in mites, but anyway.......

[mark the red 0]

Most of yhe criticism is generated because of Sammy's red hair and the fact he is a step-child.

Maybe it's one of those integal things we might not know about, {Sammy's placement on the second line]. Something he does/doesn't do, that makes the whole second unit better.Or it could be a case where sonething he does;doesn't do that would make the 3rd or 4th unit terrible.

In other words, he is where he is not because Babs thinks he is one of the best 6 forwards but because of the dynamics of his other lines.

[OsGOD 3]

Osgod, seriously dude, you know better than that, no one is saying that making a statement like he needs to shoot better or take better shots is bashing him. It is the people who yell and scream saying he is useless, can't pass, is a waste of space, blah blah, blah.

Saying his shooting percentage sucks Donkey Dink is not bashing him it is stating the truth, it is as much about how people are expressing their displeasure with him more than saying he is not playing well.

If there was one thread that was title Sammy is playing bad, or why is sammy struggling this year I don't think this thread would exist.

It is the:

Sammy is useless, Sammy doesn't fit in, Sammy is a waste, Sammy is the ANTI_CHRIST threads that get old and are getting these responses. As some one said earlier it has a lot to do with Maturity, some people are mature at 12 and others are immature at 57.

Personally i think that is being useless, what does he really do but shoot fruitless shots?.... Hudler who plays less and get less shots has a better scoring % and so does most of the team. Basically Sammy is sucking up others players time which can and have been proven to be more productive.