Kronwall And 1st Round Pick For Sundin?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I just like our forwards from last season more.

Bertuzzi and Lang is lazy and he sucks™ left some hole which

those youngsters fill only partially. Bert and Lang were big bodies

and skill packages and for them we have now Flip and Hudler

who are both not necessarily big and physical. nor experienced

and bringing as much leadership

I think this is where Wings need to look for improvement. and

since all other teams know this we can not expect to have free

lunch here but must expect a rip-off. the only aspect we might

have movable here is D-men and a valuable D-man who is not

100% untouchable has Kronwall on his back. as much as we hate

to see him go this may be the only way to buy improvement

for our 2nd line.

that's right but there's the point where you have to consider taking risk.

you can go for another 3 Presidents Trophy or try winning the Stanley Cup.

for us fans the choice should be obvious. for GM's who count money...

tougher call but I believe with JLA undergoing those attendance problems

a Stanley Cup is much better choice.

we'll see what Holland does. I think he'll do the right thing here as he did

the year before. and before

trade deadline is sellers market and prices go ridiculously high. you won't

get Sundin for 1st rounder (and a low 1st rounder in addition to that) and

a guy who is just decent. selling GM know perfectly that there's more

guys willing to drop some coins and will milk you all the way down from

valuable assets - or another GM who is more willing to pull the trigger.

if not Wings then some other team will plunge massive package for

rental Sundin. and this might as well be a team from Western Conference.

read: someone who Wings may face in playoffs.

my point is: this is a valid exchange. it's obviously risky for Wings but

may be worth trying. we were milked from draft picks and prospects

in 2002 but it worked. it doesn't have to be like that this time but if

it works...

You're comparing apples to oranges here. With the salary cap in place the league is in a completely different situation than it was in 2002.

Don't get me wrong, as I completely understand your reasoning.....but now I'm starting to question how you feel Holland made the right choice the past two deadlines with given that the Wings had total opposite deadline acquisitions. Two years ago it was Cross for practically nothing, and last year it was Calder and Bertuzzi for nothing close to the farm. Now you're talking about selling the farm if need be to get the team over the hump and its not at all what Holland did these past two seasons. TBH, I feel Holland more than earned his stripes last season. and if he can find a way to duplicate what he did last deadline plus a little more (while in return giving a little more) I think we'll be in great shape.

[Dabura 12,207]

No way does Holland pull the trigger on this.

[akustyk 84]

Don't get me wrong, as I completely understand your reasoning.....but now I'm starting to question how you feel Holland made the right choice the past two deadlines with given that the Wings had total opposite deadline acquisitions.

Two years ago it was Cross for practically nothing, and last year it was Calder and Bertuzzi for nothing close to the farm. Now you're talking about selling the farm if need be to get the team over the hump and its not at all what Holland did these past two seasons.

that's right. because last year this team was in different shape and it was not completely ready

to go deep in playoffs - with some people (myself included) predicting playoff exit about Round 2.

they surprised many with excellent playoff run.

this year's team looks to me like a package ready to grab the prize. most of our early draft picks

or promising talents are scooped from Griffs and built into the team.

should we continue this trend and wait yet another year to develop it further? that's not a bad

choice but I'd rather opt for the second option: a run for the cup. this team is ready and its

players are hungry to prove they can win it after a good appearance last year. it might be worth

to risk and give away some future for this playoffs.

and by "some future" I don't obviously mean selling our whole farm I just happen to think

we may not get away with a "Thorton for Lilja and bag of pucks" trade but will instead get

milked by other GM. looking at last year's trade deadline those ridiculous prices are likely

to stay. and we might have to sacrifice quite a lot to get a real deal.

truth being said our current roster isn't bad and if there's no decent pickup for Holland's

pockets there's absolutely no need to do a trade. but such Sundin deal is at least worth

considering IMHO. it sure is rip-off but there's just no other way to get such player for

less. period

TBH, I feel Holland more than earned his stripes last season. and if he can find a way to duplicate what he did last deadline plus a little more (while in return giving a little more) I think we'll be in great shape.

indeed. I'm OK with this being more than little if the game is worth it. those Wings 2008 are

worth more risk than last year. this is an excellent core and a team that together can perform

up to the task.

[Louisville 112]

LOL

Pierre McGuire is crazy if he thinks the Wings management or the Sharks would give up their up and coming players with a first round pick included. Even Nonis has said he thinks giving up Kesler is too much.

Please, make this ridiculous speculation stop. When this Sundin talk all started Leafs fans were talking Fippula +_Kronwall + Kindl + pick. At least the talk is getting a little reasonable, but I still say a rental is a rental.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

I don't see why we'd trade the future of our defense (as well as a great player now) for a guy in Sundin who would probably sign back with the Leafs at the end of the year.

[imisssergei 0]

I'm in favor of the deal, if Kenny could still get 2 solid dmen.

Edited January 23, 2008 by imisssergei

[Opie 308]

I'm in favor of the deal, if Kenny could still get 2 solid dmen.

So instead of depth at the forward and D positions which can be picked up for relatively nothing, the Wings should trade a future top 2 d-man, Picks or prospect, then try to find a top 3 d-man (going to cost Huds or Flip), and a 4-6 d-man, for a rental player who will be no where near the Red Wings (except the opposing locker room) next year.

How about instead

They trade for a 4-6 d-man for depth, and a 6th forward, only costing them Picks and/or a prospect or two.

That way come next year they may still have the depth players and if not, well at least it wasn't a top 3 forward.

Plus in the second scenario the wings get to keep Kronwall (potential top 2 d-man) Flip or Huds (Potential top 5 forwards) and they don't completely destroy team chemistry, which they seem to have a lot of.

Hell I will take a trade for Michael Ryder (which is an upgrade at no positions currently) for Ericsson before I would take Kronwall for Sudnin.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Opie

[Turkey 0]

Didn't McGuire say right in the article that this was his "Dreamland" deal that he would pursue? I think he's aware that there's no chance of such a thing.

[wingsfan40 0]

Would people be opposed to this deal

Filpulla + 2nd + meech/quincy

for sundin?

Id do it in a heartbeat.

I would be opposed to that for a rental. He will most likely be back with the leafs after the playoff push and we don't have the cap space to try and get him to stay on with the team. We have to resign zetterberg at the end of next season and I dont want anything to stand in that way of that.

Perhaps - meech/quincy + 2nd round pick?

Anything more and I think we should just stick to what we have now

[imisssergei 0]

So instead of depth at the forward and D positions which can be picked up for relatively nothing, the Wings should trade a future top 2 d-man, Picks or prospect, then try to find a top 3 d-man (going to cost Huds or Flip), and a 4-6 d-man, for a rental player who will be no where near the Red Wings (except the opposing locker room) next year.

How about instead

They trade for a 4-6 d-man for depth, and a 6th forward, only costing them Picks and/or a prospect or two.

That way come next year they may still have the depth players and if not, well at least it wasn't a top 3 forward.

Plus in the second scenario the wings get to keep Kronwall (potential top 2 d-man) Flip or Huds (Potential top 5 forwards) and they don't completely destroy team chemistry, which they seem to have a lot of.

Hell I will take a trade for Michael Ryder (which is an upgrade at no positions currently) for Ericsson before I would take Kronwall for Sudnin.

Kronwall has more potential for injury than he does at being a number 2 dman. The deal stated was Kronwall and a 1st for Sundin. The Wings would then need to fill the void left by Kronwall. If I were GM, I'd try to sign Markov, and find a top 4 dman, only costing some picks/prospects as you suggested.

In the end the Wings have cleared come payroll for the next few years to get a solid dman as an UFA, possibly 2.

Meanwhile, Kronwall takes the injury bug to Toronto, and plays the last 3 seasons of his career that ends early do to a freak accident involving a soda, a puck, the blueline, and a light bulb.

[skacore 2]

I think you're mistaken with regards to how draft picks are awarded now. While we'd all love to have the 30th draft pick, it's no guarantee -- the Wings would have to win the Stanley Cup. Unless we win the Cup, we won't be 30th. Because the Sharks and Canucks, depending on how far they get in comparison with the Wings, could very well have worse first selections.

I know but do you not think they value San Jose's or Vancouver's 1st round pick more than Detroit's? They definitely put that into consideration

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I haven't really stated what I want yet (rather I've just commented on others' wish lists) so I'll throw in mine.

Personally, I'd be fine adding a nasty 5-6 depth Dman. I think they have a solid core, and having a seventh Dman that could step in at any time should be suffice. That being said, if the right top 4 Dman came at the right price I would strongly look at it.

I'd like to take a chance on Foresberg if possible. I love that aside from money the Wings lose nothing by bringing him in. If he can even get up to 2/3 speed, he'll be a monster in the playoffs. BTW, I don't see him coming here but it sure would help.

Lastly, Hossa intrigues the hell out of me. Obviously, Atlanta is going to have to have a tough stretch in February to be knocked low enough where they'd be sellers, and I would never advocate bringing him unless a deal was in place to bring him in for multiple years. That being said, I am extremely interested in this guy given the right deal and players are in place. The problem with this is there'd be so much to discuss in terms of Red Wings players/picks that would be involved in the deal, and I would think a core Wings defenseman would have to be part of the deal.

Let just say in crazy world that a Dman wasn't part of the deal. Imagine this lineup (assuming it would take Hudler and Filppula & atleast a pick to bring in Hossa):

Z-Dats-Homer

Hossa-Foresberg-Cleary

Draper-Maltby-Franzen

Kopecky-Samuelsson-Drake/Downey

Lids-Rafalski

Kronwall-Lilja

Chelios-Lebda/Big Nasty Deadline Dman

Edited January 23, 2008 by Never Forget Mac #25

[kylee 727]

say no to rental players!

plus i loveee the way Kronner is coming along.

Kronner is proving hes worth a lot more than a Krona!

Edited January 23, 2008 by kylee

[Louisville 112]

Didn't McGuire say right in the article that this was his "Dreamland" deal that he would pursue? I think he's aware that there's no chance of such a thing.

So basically, that's like an LGWer posting a trade idea like Hossa for (add Sammy, Lilja, Lebda or whatever crap people come up with here) because they did it on their PS2.

And why is McGuire coming up with "Dreamland" trades that won't happen for the Leafs, but he would still pursue? Even if he admits they won't happen?

Whatever. We need to forget about Sundin and worry about a steady, large defenseman. Maybe a second line forward if the deal is sweet.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I haven't really stated what I want yet (rather I've just commented on others' wish lists) so I'll throw in mine.

Personally, I'd be fine adding a nasty 5-6 depth Dman. I think they have a solid core, and having a seventh Dman that could step in at any time should be suffice. That being said, if the right top 4 Dman came at the right price I would strongly look at it.

I'd like to take a chance on Foresberg if possible. I love that aside from money the Wings lose nothing by bringing him in. If he can even get up to 2/3 speed, he'll be a monster in the playoffs. BTW, I don't see him coming here but it sure would help.

Lastly, Hossa intrigues the hell out of me. Obviously, Atlanta is going to have to have a tough stretch in February to be knocked low enough where they'd be sellers, and I would never advocate bringing him unless a deal was in place to bring him in for multiple years. That being said, I am extremely interested in this guy given the right deal and players are in place. The problem with this is there'd be so much to discuss in terms of Red Wings players/picks that would be involved in the deal, and I would think a core Wings defenseman would have to be part of the deal.

Let just say in crazy world that a Dman wasn't part of the deal. Imagine this lineup (assuming it would take Hudler and Filppula & atleast a pick to bring in Hossa):

Z-Dats-Homer

Hossa-Foresberg-Cleary

Draper-Maltby-Franzen

Kopecky-Samuelsson-Drake/Downey

Lids-Rafalski

Kronwall-Lilja

Chelios-Lebda/Big Nasty Deadline Dman

Im right with you. Whereas before I didnt think wed be able to pull it off, now I think we might be able to. Also, I think wed have the cap space to re-sign him. With Zetterbergs injury problems becoming pretty habitual, and his desire to sign a longterm contract, Detroit may be able to talk him down to Datsyuk type terms. Also, if you consider that the cap is projected to go up a good 4 million this year, and if it went up another say, 1-2M the following year, that means the cap will be around 55M when Zetterbergs big contract kicks in, which means wed be able to host 5 large contracts (Raffi, Lids, Hank, Hossa, Datsyuk)

Personally, I dont think it would take Flip AND Hudler, even with the crazy proposals weve seen in the past. For Hossa I would give up:

Hudler

Kindl, Ericsson, or Quincey

1st round pick in 09 (better chance it will be a higher pick in 09 than this year)

2nd round pick in 08

and Samuelsson, if theyre interested in adding cheap scoring depth (their tendency to stick with players like White, Perrin, and Dupuis plus the impending departure of Holik makes me think they might be interested. If not, oh well)

If you look at the price that was paid for Forsberg (1st, 3rd, Parent, Upshall), this deal tops that as Hudler has more offensive upside than Upshall did (and still does it appears) and both Kindl and Ericsson continue to develop nicely while Parents stock has dropped considerably. Not to mention, Atlanta doesnt have much in the stables, while they did say theyd want at least one player who could step in immediately. That gives them at least one roster player immediately in Hudler, and possibly another Dman if they want to bring in the youngsters on the back end right away. And IMO, it would be to our benefit to give up a top D prospect as oppose to BOTH Hudler and Flip. Seems we've more young Dmen than we can handle right now..

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I saw those proposals yesterday and just laughed.

Kronwall and a 1st. Top 3 defenceman and a good prospect, nope.

Michalek and a 1st. Top 6 winger with 30 goal potential and a good prospect, nope.

Kesler and a 1st. Shutdown centerman, with 15-20 goal and 60 point potential, nope.

I would love Sundin, but if that is what the outline for the deal would be, no thanks.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Im right with you. Whereas before I didnt think wed be able to pull it off, now I think we might be able to. Also, I think wed have the cap space to re-sign him. With Zetterbergs injury problems becoming pretty habitual, and his desire to sign a longterm contract, Detroit may be able to talk him down to Datsyuk type terms. Also, if you consider that the cap is projected to go up a good 4 million this year, and if it went up another say, 1-2M the following year, that means the cap will be around 55M when Zetterbergs big contract kicks in, which means wed be able to host 5 large contracts (Raffi, Lids, Hank, Hossa, Datsyuk)

Personally, I dont think it would take Flip AND Hudler, even with the crazy proposals weve seen in the past. For Hossa I would give up:

Hudler

Kindl, Ericsson, or Quincey

1st round pick in 09 (better chance it will be a higher pick in 09 than this year)

2nd round pick in 08

and Samuelsson, if theyre interested in adding cheap scoring depth (their tendency to stick with players like White, Perrin, and Dupuis plus the impending departure of Holik makes me think they might be interested. If not, oh well)

If you look at the price that was paid for Forsberg (1st, 3rd, Parent, Upshall), this deal tops that as Hudler has more offensive upside than Upshall did (and still does it appears) and both Kindl and Ericsson continue to develop nicely while Parents stock has dropped considerably. Not to mention, Atlanta doesnt have much in the stables, while they did say theyd want at least one player who could step in immediately. That gives them at least one roster player immediately in Hudler, and possibly another Dman if they want to bring in the youngsters on the back end right away. And IMO, it would be to our benefit to give up a top D prospect as oppose to BOTH Hudler and Flip. Seems we've more young Dmen than we can handle right now..

Obviously if Kenny could get away with just moving Hudler plus the others you mentioned, I'd be all for it. You're dead on in saying we have a great deal of young Dmen, but I just don't see that deal going through. With the deals that were made last year, I think you're going to need to up the anti and maybe swap Fil with Hudler in your proposal at least.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Never Forget Mac #25

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

The only way I trade either Flip or Kronwall for Sundin is if I was guaranteed that we'd win the Cup with Sundin. Only then, would I trade a young star for a rental player, in order to see a 4th Cup. Since there are no guarantees in the NHL, I just can't see why Kenny would ever make this trade. It could potentially be a disaster.

[Anomalously 0]

I think Sundin would fit in impeccably -- but I think he'd be too expensive for the Wings to be beneficial in the long run. A team like Nashville is regretting giving up so much for Forsberg, a rental that was supposed to bring them some postseason glory.

If we could sign Markov, trade Kronwall and picks, get Hossa, then that would be preferable. But people are throwing around Markov's name like we're Anaheim and he's Selanne. He left to go play somewhere else because he wanted way too much money -- he's not pondering his future, he's playing hockey for a huge sum.

But short of that scenario, I'd still like to see us get Hossa. As young as Datsyuk, a little less flashy but probably more skilled. Can be a complete game-changer. And I think he'd work great with Babcock's system. Without Kronwall, I think we could afford Z, D, H, L, and R. I hope, anyway.

[FinRedWing 172]

Obviously if Kenny could get away with just moving Hudler plus the others you mentioned, I'd be all for it. You're dead on in saying we have a great deal of young Dmen, but I just don't see that deal going through. With the deals that were made last year, I think you're going to need to up the anti and maybe swap Fil with Hudler in your proposal at best.

Oh no, you don't!

I'm loving the fact that we finally have a Finnish player in our team (and a good one - not some mediocre prospect).

I can honestly say that I wouldn't trade Filppula for Hossa STRAIGHT UP. Yeah,bring on the lie detectors (warning,I'd pass with flying colours).

I'm used to Kenny re-signing everybody and I'm expecting him to lock Valtteri up for a long time. Don't change your policy now Kenny!!!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Oh no, you don't!

I'm loving the fact that we finally have a Finnish player in our team (and a good one - not some mediocre prospect).

I can honestly say that I wouldn't trade Filppula for Hossa STRAIGHT UP. Yeah,bring on the lie detectors (warning,I'd pass with flying colours).

I'm used to Kenny re-signing everybody and I'm expecting him to lock Valtteri up for a long time. Don't change your policy now Kenny!!!

Sorry FRW, but just because you like the fact that the Wings have a Finnish player it doesn't mean they shouldn't entertain the thought of moving him for a guy like Hossa.

[FinRedWing 172]

Sorry FRW, but just because you like the fact that the Wings have a Finnish player it doesn't mean they shouldn't entertain the thought of moving him for a guy like Hossa.

I know. But Kenny will do what he does best.

Re-sign.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Obviously if Kenny could get away with just moving Hudler plus the others you mentioned, I'd be all for it. You're dead on in saying we have a great deal of young Dmen, but I just don't see that deal going through. With the deals that were made last year, I think you're going to need to up the anti and maybe swap Fil with Hudler in your proposal at least.

I agree that we may need to up the ante as you say, but the teams that are going to be pitching offers for Hossa are going to be looking towards the cup just as the Wings are. I can't imagine any team taking two players off their roster - especially young forwards who've shown tons of improvement and still havent reached their potential. That being said, like I mentioned earlier, Atlanta has done some very weak drafting in the past, and they could use some depth in their system. If we up the ante, I say we do it through picks and prospects if anything. Something like Hudler, 2 1st round picks, Kindl or Ericsson, and Abdelkader. That gives atlanta 1 good young Dman, 1 scoring foward, 1 defensive forward, and two first rounders to work up in order to land Hossa.

And before people complain about "trading our future away", keep in mind that Holland wont get into bidding wars for Hossa if he doesnt think he can re-sign him longterm. If we trade for Hossa and can sign him longterm, youre probably looking at Hossa, Hank, and Datsyuk for 5 plus years after this season. That sort of lineup doesnt require you to have rookie superstars waiting in the wings. By that time, well have added plenty more prospects to the pool up front, and clearly if we lost Kindl, for example, wed still have Lebda, Quincey, Kronwall, Smith, and Ericsson to solidify our future..

[b.shanafan14 733]

If we were talking Mats Sundin that had a couple years on a contract left, I would say yes, or at least a strong maybe. But we are talking about a rental for an up-and-coming defenseman that fits the Wings system and is just starting to get rolling without injury. HELL NO!

[TeeMan 52]

I think it would just be better if we just kick all the players in the nuts.

Vary BAD IDEA

It's a three way lost. Mats is done, we lose the first pick and Kronwall. Nope Next idea.