Heaton 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Not if that big gritty forward happens to be a gimp, which is what Bertuzzi was when we got him. Who else like Bertuzzi was available for a reasonable price? Why do you keep ignoring that? Mortgaging your future for Tkachuk and Guerin is laughable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Who else like Bertuzzi was available for a reasonable price? Why do you keep ignoring that? Mortgaging your future for Tkachuk and Guerin is laughable. Isn't that what pretty much wound up happening now that Bertuzzi is gone, and we've lost Matthias also? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Isn't that what pretty much wound up happening now that Bertuzzi is gone, and we've lost Matthias also? I don't think you understand what mortgaging your future is. Matthias was expendable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 I don't think you understand what mortgaging your future is. Matthias was expendable. How was Mathias more expendable than Franzen? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rice 42 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 (edited) How was Mathias more expendable than Franzen? How many NHL games has Matthias played in? How many has Franzen played in? Alexander Daigle was hyped up, too. Edited February 12, 2008 by ARice89 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 How was Mathias more expendable than Franzen? How wasn't he? Franzen was a proven NHL player, Matthias was prospect with no certainty at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 How was Mathias more expendable than Franzen? One was an unproven prospect, the other a pretty good bottom line Center with size. He has been using it lately, yeah he cant fight, but so what. That's what enforcers are for, I'd rather he be hitting alone and causing havok with punk ass losers like Pronger, leave the fighting to the tough guys. Franzen is not that bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 PLEASE TRADE FRANZEN, HUDLER, AND/OR SAMUELSSON For who? And would it be a fairly even trade for all parties? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ben_usmc 253 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 I think most of the players getting crap have really been playing better as late to be honest, Franzen is hitting and seems to be play aggresive and looking like the most improved in the last few games. Sammy hasn't just shot the puck every 10 sec like everyone has complained about plus he is cheap and responsable on de. Even Drake is going out there and throwing some hits. To me Flip needs to start shooting since we are depending on him more, Kronner and Cleary are out so they can't do much, and as some may flame I think that Datsyuk has proven to be a much better foward at the moment then Z, but I think Z probably needs more rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 One was an unproven prospect, the other a pretty good bottom line Center with size. He has been using it lately, yeah he cant fight, but so what. That's what enforcers are for, I'd rather he be hitting alone and causing havok with punk ass losers like Pronger, leave the fighting to the tough guys. Franzen is not that bad. Franzen achieves a purpose that plenty of guys on the team have. He's a penalty killer. We need someone who can score on our top 2 lines, and if it means trading away Franzen, then I won't lose any sleep over it. And I think it's fair to say that Mathias as a prospect was expected to be better than where Franzen was last year or this year as a player. Yeah, he's unproven, but in retrospect it was still a bad move by Holland, and you guys are unwilling to admit that he screwed that one up. Like I said earlier, Holland is a good GM, but he isn't a GOD like you guys are making him sound defending his every move. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rice 42 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Franzen achieves a purpose that plenty of guys on the team have. He's a penalty killer. We need someone who can score on our top 2 lines, and if it means trading away Franzen, then I won't lose any sleep over it. And I think it's fair to say that Mathias as a prospect was expected to be better than where Franzen was last year or this year as a player. Yeah, he's unproven, but in retrospect it was still a bad move by Holland, and you guys are unwilling to admit that he screwed that one up. Like I said earlier, Holland is a good GM, but he isn't a GOD like you guys are making him sound defending his every move. Well, shutting guys down has to occur during 5-on-5 play and the penalty kill. When did I say I would be totally opposed to trading Franzen? I just said he doesn't have to go, like you and others have implied. The Bertuzzi trade obviously bit Holland in the ass, but like I said, it was a lose-lose for him. He was aggressive at the deadline like fans wanted him to be. If he hadn't been, fans would've been disappointed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 How wasn't he? Franzen was a proven NHL player, Matthias was prospect with no certainty at all. Yeah, a proven 3rd liner. You make it sound like he's one of the 2 or 3 most important pieces to the team Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rice 42 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Yeah, a proven 3rd liner. You make it sound like he's one of the 2 or 3 most important pieces to the team Proven first-liner, proven third-liner...it doesn't make a difference. At the trade deadline last year, Franzen was more important to the Detroit Red Wings than Matthias ever has been or likely ever will be. Want to argue with that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ben_usmc 253 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 actually Mathias wasn't expected to be great or anything, he was projected to be a 3rd liner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lou_Siffer 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 I'd trade Franzen for the right deal obviously, but its not like i'd actively be shopping him around like i would Hudler. Thats the guy that seriously needs to be dealt. I dont particularly like the fact that Franzen's inconsistent when it comes to using his size, one game he'll lay somebody out like he did Jackman,..then the next 4 or 5 games it'll seem like he throws no hits at all and plays soft. Overall I definitely dont think he's bad though...there seems to be potential if only he could develop more of a mean streak. And at least learn how to defend himself better whenever someone goes after him... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ben_usmc 253 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 I think Franzen is starting to, just the last few games anyway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 The Bertuzzi trade obviously bit Holland in the ass, but like I said, it was a lose-lose for him. He was aggressive at the deadline like fans wanted him to be. If he hadn't been, fans would've been disappointed. Ain't that the truth. Holland is just in jail with some fans, which is pretty sad. He goes out and makes a deal, and you think that it would (1) satisfy the fans who want a trade to happen just for the sake of it happening and (2) satisfy the grit/toughness slappies, espeically on this board. Bertuzzi's health was a bit questionable, but for giving up JUST 1 unproven draft pick, I think it was worth the risk if Bertuzzi got healthy as he has the size obviously and has shown what he is capable of in spurts this season. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose in the trade game. Holland lost this one, but it was worth the risk. It's a shame some people can't ever seem to be satisifed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Proven first-liner, proven third-liner...it doesn't make a difference. At the trade deadline last year, Franzen was more important to the Detroit Red Wings than Matthias ever has been or likely ever will be. Want to argue with that? I never said Franzen should have been dealt last year, I just wouldn't mind seeing him and a few others dealt now, because I don't see the Wings winning the Cup with this lineup. I'd trade Franzen for the right deal obviously, but its not like i'd actively be shopping him around like i would Hudler. Thats the guy that seriously needs to be dealt. I dont particularly like the fact that Franzen's inconsistent when it comes to using his size, one game he'll lay somebody out like he did Jackman,..then the next 4 or 5 games it'll seem like he throws no hits at all and plays soft. Overall I definitely dont think he's bad though...there seems to be potential if only he could develop more of a mean streak. And at least learn how to defend himself better whenever someone goes after him... He's got to look to his big Swedish teammate to learn how to do that, Lou. All he's got to do is ask, and PAIN TRAIN will deliver his services free of charge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lou_Siffer 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 I never said Franzen should have been dealt last year, I just wouldn't mind seeing him and a few others dealt now, because I don't see the Wings winning the Cup with this lineup. He's got to look to his big Swedish teammate to learn how to do that, Lou. All he's got to do is ask, and PAIN TRAIN will deliver his services free of charge. Right you are. Just like that the Pain Train can assume his role as the Pain Trainer! (why im envisioning Karate Kid III right now i have no idea...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kp-Wings 3 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Franzen is, in my opinion, a poor man's Sami Pahlsson. He's an ok shut down center, not very physical, and not very good offensivily either. I don't really care about Franzen one way or another. If the Wings keep him, fine, if they get rid of him, that's fine also. Whatever happens to him really doesn't matter to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kylee 727 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 He's an ok shut down center, not very physical, and not very good offensivily either. Franzen is a mystery to me. some games, he'll be very offensive and use his body to a great advantage. other times he's a sluggish, non factor. granted, he's still very young. but in Detroit, its all about the here and now. if it meant giving up Franzen to get Jokinen, im all about that, or to get Hossa. would FLA/ATL bite for getting this in return for one of their top players? Franzen/Huder/Prospect/ 1st round Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sergeiwasmyfav 0 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Yeah, a proven 3rd liner. You make it sound like he's one of the 2 or 3 most important pieces to the team What's wrong with being a third line player? No team will ever consist entirely of players that belong on the first or second line (Ok, maybe the '02 Wings, but that was essentially a different era and will probably never happen again). Third line players are very important to a team's success, as most teams that win the Cup role four lines consistently. If your argument is that we could get a better third liner than Franzen, then I think that is a legitimate point, although I think Franzen is doing a pretty good job right now. However, your argument made it sound like he should be traded simply because he will never be a first or second liner, which, in my opinion, makes no sense. Many players will never be at that level, but it doesn't mean they are not important or should be traded. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,803 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 What's wrong with being a third line player? No team will ever consist entirely of players that belong on the first or second line (Ok, maybe the '02 Wings, but that was essentially a different era and will probably never happen again). Third line players are very important to a team's success, as most teams that win the Cup role four lines consistently. If your argument is that we could get a better third liner than Franzen, then I think that is a legitimate point, although I think Franzen is doing a pretty good job right now. However, your argument made it sound like he should be traded simply because he will never be a first or second liner, which, in my opinion, makes no sense. Many players will never be at that level, but it doesn't mean they are not important or should be traded. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant. That is what I meant, so you misunderstood my argument. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lou_Siffer 1 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 Franzen is a mystery to me. some games, he'll be very offensive and use his body to a great advantage. other times he's a sluggish, non factor. granted, he's still very young. but in Detroit, its all about the here and now. if it meant giving up Franzen to get Jokinen, im all about that, or to get Hossa. would FLA/ATL bite for getting this in return for one of their top players? Franzen/Huder/Prospect/ 1st round Thats just how i feel about Franzen...although, he may be pretty new to the NHL but he's not very young. Isnt he like 28? (my god does typing that make me feel old) As for the trade proposal....Florida absolutely would have no part of that for Jokinen....even if that prospect was Kindl. Atlanta wouldnt do it either, but they at least wouldnt immediately hang up on you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman54 91 Report post Posted February 12, 2008 I have always liked Franzen and think he is progressing every year Now if only him and Lilja were to take boxing lessons............ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
