Pavel Datsyuk for the Selke

[dicksmack 33]

Datsyuk's skill level is such that he can separate people from the puck better than Madden, or Fisher better than ANYBODY. Therefore... he can be a better defender. He's fast, and he backchecks relentlessly… He reads the game, anticipates very well. I don’t see other offensive stars who quite use their skills on the defensive as well as Pavel.

The Wings play a puck possession game. Everybody knows that and Detroit is almost always the first team that comes to mind that embodies this approach. It takes a lot of skill to pull off...See, part of the reason the wings give up so few shots is that they in fact play a puck possession game. Here's the tricky part... When you have the puck, the other team can't score... Pavel’s got the puck. Does Pavel benefit from playing on the wings statistically or does he contribute to these team results commensurably? Perhaps not exactly, but I don’t think Pavel is riding on the team’s coattails…

With Datsyuk's league-leading stick checking and his likewise regarded knack of escapability, he can make things happen defensively that other players can't match... He can stickhandle his way to clearing the zone, to maintain puck possession or make that outlet pass that a lesser-skilled, defensive role player player can't... If you watch him closely, you’ll notice that he usually makes his move when he knows the defender has committed himself. He often puts that move on a player that puts their guy off balance for a split-second and that’s when Pavel will turn and flip that backhand saucer pass or whatever… He does this, as above, defensively… And when he's not making the safe play, he can counter-attack instead... And he's been known to steal a few; when gives it away occasionally, he often steals it back.

As well, he makes effective changes all the time. I’ve only noticed once where he made a bad change once… In today’s game of short shifts, that’s important.

He's physically strong and durable, such that he misses very few games, he can hit and use or gain position physically...

I think Datsyuk’s all-around ability allows him to attack or defend at an elite level, such that in a shallow field of defensive types not having big seasons, he is still the best.

Personally, I think Pahlsson is the NHL’s best defensive guy, but this year, he’s had tough luck, as have a number of these defensive specialists…

You guys are too caught up with the idea that the Selke winner is rarely be skilled offensively as well... Datsyuk's stats match up very nicely with those of Fedorov and Gilmore when these offensively-gifted players in fact won the Selke. Perhaps they in fact won in years that were lean for the defensive guys having big seasons…

I think some of you guys are disappointed that Pavel’s the number one forward. on the Wings.

[Lidstromrules16 7]

no stats are needed, just watch him play. He is better at taking the puck away from skaters than any other player I have seen in a LONG time. He hustles on the backcheck, usually strips the puck from the opposing team, and still manages to put up good numbers.

like it or not, Datsyuk is definently playing well enough to be considered for the Selke.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I think some of you guys are disappointed that Pavel’s the number one forward. on the Wings.

I think it is a more of a case of Datsyuk's biggest fans on here sounding so shocked that people think he's not a slam dunk to win it and getting overhyped over the slighest bit of criticism thrown towards his way.

It is hard to deny his play on the ice, no doubt about it, and I certainly don't need a book report on how +/- or any other stat is determined in considering the Selke trophy, but when you aren't the top, or one of the top penalty killers on your team or considered a shutdown forward FIRST, the odds go somewhat against you.

It will not be a travesty if he doesn't win it, he'll still be the same old Datsyuk creating plays on offense with the occasional steal of the puck.

Edited March 18, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[Reds4Life 51]

Well, if not Selke, he will get Lady Byng anyways

[HOCKEY MATTERS 167]

I've just read all 7 pages of this thread for the first time. When the thread started I didn't want to pop in several times a day to watch it slowly evolve. Waiting is more entertaining for me.

My mind is numb.

I wonder how differently this diatribe would have went if everyone was sitting at a large table together in the same room. I bet some folks might be nicer to each other.

......and nowww, back to the show......

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I've just read all 7 pages of this thread for the first time. When the thread started I didn't want to pop in several times a day to watch it slowly evolve. Waiting is more entertaining for me.

My mind is numb.

I wonder how differently this diatribe would have went if everyone was sitting at a large table together in the same room. I bet some folks might be nicer to each other.

......and nowww, back to the show......

I wouldn't. I'd be doing more of this:

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

I've just read all 7 pages of this thread for the first time. When the thread started I didn't want to pop in several times a day to watch it slowly evolve. Waiting is more entertaining for me.

My mind is numb.

I wonder how differently this diatribe would have went if everyone was sitting at a large table together in the same room. I bet some folks might be nicer to each other.

......and nowww, back to the show......

you just have to remember there are a few people that post in threads just to start a debate. to argue the other side of the majority. 2 people come to mind. just pay attention. its the same 2 that do it. in every thread they post in.

[Kira 451]

no stats are needed, just watch him play. He is better at taking the puck away from skaters than any other player I have seen in a LONG time. He hustles on the backcheck, usually strips the puck from the opposing team, and still manages to put up good numbers.

like it or not, Datsyuk is definently playing well enough to be considered for the Selke.

But according to the majority opinion on here, he'll never win because his name isn't Sergei Fedorov.

[Doggy 130]

Same reason why Zetterberg couldve easily been nominated over Jay Pandolfo.

Jay Pandolfo should've won it last year.

[eva unit zero 271]

But according to the majority opinion on here, he'll never win because his name isn't Sergei Fedorov.

Kira, I know you feel Dats should win the Selke, Byng, and Hart.

But nobody is saying he won't win because his name isn't Sergei Fedorov. We're saying he won't win because he isn't even close to the dominant level of defense Fedorov player in the years he won.

Seriously. Fedorov played defense at a level that absolutely controlled the game even when he didn't score. Datsyuk is good defensively...but he's never been THAT good.

And ultimately, when you have guys like John Madden and Mike Fisher having solid seasons, and then compare that with Datsyuk, who is seventh on his team among forwards in average time spent on the penalty kill...he won't win it. He's likely not to even be nominated. Pavel Datsyuk is NOT an elite level defensive forward where leaving him out of the Selke nominations would be a travesty. That combined with other factors will lead to a situation where his chances of being nominated are slim, and his chances of winning are practically non-existent. I would be shocked if he is named on more than four or five ballots, and if he receives more than one first-place vote. Not saying he isn't in the running...just that he's not at the top of the list like some people on here would claim based on unreliable statistics.

[Doggy 130]

Kira, I know you feel Dats should win the Selke, Byng, and Hart.

But nobody is saying he won't win because his name isn't Sergei Fedorov. We're saying he won't win because he isn't even close to the dominant level of defense Fedorov player in the years he won.

Seriously. Fedorov played defense at a level that absolutely controlled the game even when he didn't score. Datsyuk is good defensively...but he's never been THAT good.

And ultimately, when you have guys like John Madden and Mike Fisher having solid seasons, and then compare that with Datsyuk, who is seventh on his team among forwards in average time spent on the penalty kill...he won't win it. He's likely not to even be nominated. Pavel Datsyuk is NOT an elite level defensive forward where leaving him out of the Selke nominations would be a travesty. That combined with other factors will lead to a situation where his chances of being nominated are slim, and his chances of winning are practically non-existent. I would be shocked if he is named on more than four or five ballots, and if he receives more than one first-place vote. Not saying he isn't in the running...just that he's not at the top of the list like some people on here would claim based on unreliable statistics.

And besides, his name isn't Sergei Fedorov. It's Pavel Datsyuk.

[norrisnick 1]

Kira, I know you feel Dats should win the Selke, Byng, and Hart.

But nobody is saying he won't win because his name isn't Sergei Fedorov. We're saying he won't win because he isn't even close to the dominant level of defense Fedorov player in the years he won.

Seriously. Fedorov played defense at a level that absolutely controlled the game even when he didn't score. Datsyuk is good defensively...but he's never been THAT good.

And ultimately, when you have guys like John Madden and Mike Fisher having solid seasons, and then compare that with Datsyuk, who is seventh on his team among forwards in average time spent on the penalty kill...he won't win it. He's likely not to even be nominated. Pavel Datsyuk is NOT an elite level defensive forward where leaving him out of the Selke nominations would be a travesty. That combined with other factors will lead to a situation where his chances of being nominated are slim, and his chances of winning are practically non-existent. I would be shocked if he is named on more than four or five ballots, and if he receives more than one first-place vote. Not saying he isn't in the running...just that he's not at the top of the list like some people on here would claim based on unreliable statistics.

For what it's worth here are his Selke vote totals from last season:

20. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 37 (1-2-2-1-0)

To compare.

7. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 200 (9-9-5-6-4)

8. Kris Draper, DET 183 (2-11-10-10-6)

39. Johan Franzen, DET 6 (0-0-1-0-1)

[Doggy 130]

For what it's worth here are his Selke vote totals from last season:

20. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 37 (1-2-2-1-0)

To compare.

7. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 200 (9-9-5-6-4)

8. Kris Draper, DET 183 (2-11-10-10-6)

39. Johan Franzen, DET 6 (0-0-1-0-1)

Yes, but what were Fedorov's vote totals?

Okay, I'll stop now.

[norrisnick 1]

Yes, but what were Fedorov's vote totals?

Okay, I'll stop now.

32. Sergei Fedorov, CBJ 9 (0-1-0-0-2)

And he was battling groin and wrist issues most of that season. He picked up some nagging things after the lockout and it's really only been the last couple months where he's been remotely healthy. He tried playing through it but it seriously affected his game. For a while he couldn't even take a slapshot.

[Yellowknife Redwing 57]

Oops, I appear to have bumped this thread

[stud_defenseman 1]

I love looking back at posts like this. Past comments make people look so stupid sometimes

[DaKineMaui 8]

Oops, I appear to have bumped this thread

Oh woopsie-doodle!

[ben_usmc 253]

Its funny that you can count on the normal 5 or 6 posters to use guarantee such events won't happen. Then like to go on their little ego trips about how much more knowledge relating to earlier winners and just spew it out. Now I'm glad they all have to once again shut the f*** up. This is just icing for those that were saying we are to small, we are to old, we need canadians, holland sucks, we didn't pick anyone up at the deadline, etc. Maybe some of you should just shut up because apparently more of the level headed posters seem to end up looking like they know there s*** more, and this is just another proven case.

[DaKineMaui 8]

Its funny that you can count on the normal 5 or 6 posters to use guarantee such events won't happen. Then like to go on their little ego trips about how much more knowledge relating to earlier winners and just spew it out. Now I'm glad they all have to once again shut the f*** up. This is just icing for those that were saying we are to small, we are to old, we need canadians, holland sucks, we didn't pick anyone up at the deadline, etc. Maybe some of you should just shut up because apparently more of the level headed posters seem to end up looking like they know there s*** more, and this is just another proven case.

Count me in as one of the ones who said:

1 - We are too small

2 - (Maybe maybe maybe) put me in the Canadian thingy

3 - and the deadline thing.

Pavel Datsyuk is the best player I've watched in years. AO? Yup. But I like to watch PD.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Its funny that you can count on the normal 5 or 6 posters to use guarantee such events won't happen. Then like to go on their little ego trips about how much more knowledge relating to earlier winners and just spew it out. Now I'm glad they all have to once again shut the f*** up. This is just icing for those that were saying we are to small, we are to old, we need canadians, holland sucks, we didn't pick anyone up at the deadline, etc. Maybe some of you should just shut up because apparently more of the level headed posters seem to end up looking like they know there s*** more, and this is just another proven case.

I don't think I've spewed much in the way of "ego" here, I'm happy to see Datsyuk win it and glad to say my guess was incorrect for Datsyuk's favor. It is a bit ironic though that a "defensive" award winner was won by somebody who was around the league leaders in offensive production. In this instance though, I think the offensive/defenseive comparison doesn't hold much water here with him having so many takeaways, but remember when Draper won it he had the 20+ goal season, the most in his career.

I don't think I ever once said it is 100% impossible for Datsyuk not to win the award, I just thought he had a few things not going in his favor to not win the award (not the primary PKer on your team, etc.). Whether you think they were legit/accurate reasons or not, that's up to you to decide. I just don't like either extreme of thought, (1) people thinking that he could not win it at all and (2) the hardcore fans who get all up in arms about even just minute criticism of Datsyuk or their favorite player and twisting around the thoughts of the middle-of-the-road people such as myself to where it sounded like we thought there was not a snowball's chance in hell of him winning either.

Also there is a thing (not you specifically doing this) about celebrating graciously. Snicker, be proud or happy that you might have thought he would win it all the way or sticking by him winning the award. No need to rub people's faces in dirt though acting all high and mighty saying you were right. Don't be a sore loser, but don't be a sore winner as well.

Edited June 13, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[Guest LivingtheDream]

Seriously I don't know how people can be so confident of this. The Selke award is way too hard to judge. There are no locks.

Datsyuk is to Selke as Lidstrom is to Norris. You're kidding me yeah? There are many better defensive forwards than Datsyuk. Players that actually shut down the other teams best players. Pavel's role is not to stop players like Thornton, Iginla, Getzlaf, Gaborik, etc.

We've watched massive improvement from Datsyuk in his defensive game. However, he's no Fedorov... yet.

No, it was only his job and Hanks to shut down Crosby, Hossa, Malkin... what planet are you from man? Do you think it was all Lids and Ralf that were part of our D all season and in the finals? I say he IS a Federov and then some. Playoff performer now no doubt, and planning to be a life long Wing with no illusions of being the shining super star of the team. Oh wait, didn't a certain Russian prima donna want out to be the star of his own team and couldn't handle sharing the lime light with one of the NHL greats?

[Doggy 130]

No, it was only his job and Hanks to shut down Crosby, Hossa, Malkin... what planet are you from man? Do you think it was all Lids and Ralf that were part of our D all season and in the finals? I say he IS a Federov and then some. Playoff performer now no doubt, and planning to be a life long Wing with no illusions of being the shining super star of the team. Oh wait, didn't a certain Russian prima donna want out to be the star of his own team and couldn't handle sharing the lime light with one of the NHL greats?

I don't think there was too much wrong with my post but okay. He was defensive in a series played 3 months after that post was made.

I though Zetterberg probably deserved the award but I don't really care much about individual awards and it's also the hardest player award to judge.

But thanks for popping up.

[Misty Belle 0]

I think some of you guys are disappointed that Pavel’s the number one forward. on the Wings.

you hit the nail on the head there!

to put it bluntly, far more on here are Zetterberg fans and that skews everything. I think it has something to do with "greedy Russian".

Pavel Datsyukstrom for Selke would be better.

[Electrophile 3,554]

Are you seriously suggesting that people think Datsyuk shouldn't have won because he's Russian?

[Reds4Life 51]

2007-2008 Frank Selke Trophy Voting Results

Rank Name Team Points 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th

===========================================

1. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 537 (43-9-7-3-0)

2. John Madden, N.J. 447 (18-18-16-17-10)

3. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 425 (22-20-6-10-5)

4. Patrick Sharp, CHI 290 (10-14-13-8-3)

5. Mike Richards, PHI 220 (10-6-6-13-9)