Pavel Datsyuk for the Selke

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

YEAH PAV!

And YEAH GS&T! I love being right about everything all of the time!

And whomever said that some people around here are just irked off because its not so clear cut that Z is the #1 forward in town, truer words may have never been spoken.

Datsyuk, Datsyuk, Datsyuk!!!!!!

oh good god. yes, because not everyone thinks Datsyuk is the best defensive forward in the nhl, it must mean it's because that they're afraid Z isn't the clear #1 on the team. Because there couldn't possibly be any other reason.

Isn't this where you'd normally play the homer or slappy card?

Of the three nominees, I don't think Z should've won it either.

[dicksmack 33]

I will say this, all those who blathered on and on about Datsyuk's PK time need to come back here and eat some crow.

People used Datsyuk's lower PK time as an argument against his defensive prowess. Perhaps they should've thought outside the box and maybe then they'd have realized that with so many good defensive players on our team, why would you burn Datsyuk out with top PK minutes when you have Draper, Flip, Matlby, Drake, Franzen, Cleary, Z, etc....It wasn't necessary for Dats to have top PK minutes on this team. He got the minutes Babcock felt he needed for the team yet kept Datsyuk fresh to run and gun after a kill when the other teams top forwards had just been out on the PP. Babs is smart. And Datsyuk is the Selke king for now. Minutes, schminutes!

Well said... When you're top scorer is also a defensive machine in all zones and you happen to have a stable full of quality pk'ers, why would you burn out your top guy?

Who says pk minutes have to be necessarily referenced to your team anyway? The voters I think realized that if Pavel was (absurdly) used as a shut down guy he's the best. Takeways don't matter much? Extracting the puck from another player is one of the clearest forms of defensive play: Instant puck possession. But it's so much more, the way he reads plays, angles guys off on the forecheck, picks off or knocks down passes and Counterattacks! You can't score when you give the puck up to a thief and are forced to defend. In the defensive end, he does the same stuff. He takes/battles for the puck, dangles his way out danger. You have to marvel at how often he comes out of the corners with the puck! Automatic. Pavel is also a master at getting the maximum out of his small, solid frame physically. This guy can do it all and deserves this award.

Edited June 14, 2008 by dicksmack

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I will say this, all those who blathered on and on about Datsyuk's PK time need to come back here and eat some crow.

People used Datsyuk's lower PK time as an argument against his defensive prowess. Perhaps they should've thought outside the box and maybe then they'd have realized that with so many good defensive players on our team, why would you burn Datsyuk out with top PK minutes when you have Draper, Flip, Matlby, Drake, Franzen, Cleary, Z, etc....It wasn't necessary for Dats to have top PK minutes on this team. He got the minutes Babcock felt he needed for the team yet kept Datsyuk fresh to run and gun after a kill when the other teams top forwards had just been out on the PP. Babs is smart. And Datsyuk is the Selke king for now. Minutes, schminutes!

I was one of the ones who "blathered" on, but don't think I have crow to eat. I'm not sure I ever said he wouldn't win it. Merely that Madden is more deserving.

I also said that Datsyuk could definitely be the most dominant defensive forward in the league if that was the role he was called upon to do. But it's not. That's not an argument against his defensive prowess at all, but in my opinion it's a factor if he's the best candidate in the NHL for the award. That's not a knock on him, it's just not his role on the team, versus someone like Madden.

As I've said over and over, it comes down to the interpretation of the award. And right now it's more about being a great two-way forward than a defensive one. I just always preferred the Selke go to the more unsung guys who often don't get enough attention for their great play. Guys like Draper. Like the guy who won it four times in a row when they created the trophy, Bob Gainey - a rabid defensive specialist.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I am shocked that Datsyuk won it to be honest. But Im happy nonetheless. Then again, flashiness often dominates the NHL awards, just like when Pronger won it over Lidstrom.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

datsyuk also lead all our forwards in blocked shots and hits this year, correct? or am i confusing the regular season with the playoffs? if he did, leading our forwards in hits and blocked shots while leading the league in +/- and takeaways and playing against the other team's top forwards night in night out. the guy is deserving, no doubt. how awesome is it that our shutdown line is our top scoring line? how many teams can say that??

[David 2]

I'd say he is pretty defensively dominant, even though it's not his "primary" role. He's out there all the time against the other team's top lines, and his +/- speaks to his ability to not only shut them down, but score on them.

[eva unit zero 271]

I will say this, all those who blathered on and on about Datsyuk's PK time need to come back here and eat some crow.

People used Datsyuk's lower PK time as an argument against his defensive prowess. Perhaps they should've thought outside the box and maybe then they'd have realized that with so many good defensive players on our team, why would you burn Datsyuk out with top PK minutes when you have Draper, Flip, Matlby, Drake, Franzen, Cleary, Z, etc....It wasn't necessary for Dats to have top PK minutes on this team. He got the minutes Babcock felt he needed for the team yet kept Datsyuk fresh to run and gun after a kill when the other teams top forwards had just been out on the PP. Babs is smart. And Datsyuk is the Selke king for now. Minutes, schminutes!

I'll eat crow for saying he wouldn't win it. I will not eat crow for saying he SHOULDN'T have won it. Because he shouldn't have.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

I'll eat crow for saying he wouldn't win it. I will not eat crow for saying he SHOULDN'T have won it. Because he shouldn't have.

You are rediculous if you truly think that Datsyuk shouldn't have won the Selke.... Please explain your reasoning behind this, because I can guarantee you there is no coherent argument in your favor. I do believe that Zetterberg had a very good chance of winning it, but he also didn't lead the league in take-aways, so that's just a one up on him there. But please, try to explain your reasoning.

[Kira 451]

They don't have the balls to eat crow.

Maybe it means we're not as stupid as some people think we are. I'll not name names, but the guilty know who they are.

[eva unit zero 271]

You are rediculous if you truly think that Datsyuk shouldn't have won the Selke.... Please explain your reasoning behind this, because I can guarantee you there is no coherent argument in your favor. I do believe that Zetterberg had a very good chance of winning it, but he also didn't lead the league in take-aways, so that's just a one up on him there. But please, try to explain your reasoning.

Because if the Wings had to pick one forward to have out in a defensive situation, it would be Zetterberg. Not Datsyuk.

That alone is proof enough that Datsyuk is not the best in the league; if he's not the best defensively ON HIS LINE, how can he be the best in the league?

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Because if the Wings had to pick one forward to have out in a defensive situation, it would be Zetterberg. Not Datsyuk.

That alone is proof enough that Datsyuk is not the best in the league; if he's not the best defensively ON HIS LINE, how can he be the best in the league?

Datsyuk has more finesse to his game, which is why he is so amazing at stealing the puck from the opposition, which he led the league in by a wide margin. Zetterberg is an amazing two way player and one of the top defensive forwards in the league. But to say one should get it over the other is a hard thing to decide. It came down to the steals, which isn't a bad decider, in my opinion.

[norrisnick 1]

Maybe it means we're not as stupid as some people think we are. I'll not name names, but the guilty know who they are.

Stupid has never been the word that comes to mind...

[eva unit zero 271]

Datsyuk has more finesse to his game, which is why he is so amazing at stealing the puck from the opposition, which he led the league in by a wide margin. Zetterberg is an amazing two way player and one of the top defensive forwards in the league. But to say one should get it over the other is a hard thing to decide. It came down to the steals, which isn't a bad decider, in my opinion.

Datsyuk is a fine defensive player. My point is just that he's not the best defensive forward on his line.

It's like being Nicklas Lidstrom's defense partner; you could be the second best defenseman in the NHL, but you are still the weak half of your pairing.

Saying Datsyuk shouldn't have won the Selke because he's not the go-to defensive forward is NOT a slam on Datsyuk; rather, it's a statement that DESPITE all of his defensive or pseudo-defensive numbers, he was not considered the team's best defensive forward by his OWN COACH.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Datsyuk is a fine defensive player. My point is just that he's not the best defensive forward on his line.

It's like being Nicklas Lidstrom's defense partner; you could be the second best defenseman in the NHL, but you are still the weak half of your pairing.

Saying Datsyuk shouldn't have won the Selke because he's not the go-to defensive forward is NOT a slam on Datsyuk; rather, it's a statement that DESPITE all of his defensive or pseudo-defensive numbers, he was not considered the team's best defensive forward by his OWN COACH.

you must just be jealous that Zetterberg isn't the clear #1 on the team anymore.

or you hate russians.

which is it Eva?!

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Hahaha

[Heaton 1]

Defense is not exclusive to the defensive zone or penalty killing. If it were, the voters would always award the forward who had the most time killing penalties. It's splitting hairs and while I would've been fine with Zetterberg winning, just because Zetterberg may be better killing 5 on 3's doesn't mean he was consistently better defensively all season than Datsyuk or vice versa.

[eva unit zero 271]

Defense is not exclusive to the defensive zone or penalty killing. If it were, the voters would always award the forward who had the most time killing penalties. It's splitting hairs and while I would've been fine with Zetterberg winning, just because Zetterberg may be better killing 5 on 3's doesn't mean he was consistently better defensively all season than Datsyuk or vice versa.

Defensive ability is the number one talent to be a good penalty killer...so PK time is one indicator of defensive ability. However, it can only be applied against teammates, and other factors must be taken into account. Speed is another major factor on the PK; it is the reason that Draper, Cleary, and Maltby were all top-four on the Wings in PK time among forwards. And finally, a good physical game is the third and least important major factor in PK. I wouldn't argue Maltby as significantly better defensively than Drake, Franzen, or Datsyuk...but he is a better penalty killer because he is still wicked fast and a good hitter. Drake, Franzen, and Dats cannot claim to be both fast AND among the team's best hitters.

However, trying to use PK time to judge between teams gets dicey; as not all teams are equally talented defensively.

Plus-minus is a fairly useless statistic; its value in determining defensive ability is limited to rating a complete line's two-way ability. It has very little individual value as a player can gain a plus or a minus without being involved in the play in any way, and it does not reflect every situation. It shows that the DZH line was the best two-way line in hockey, but that was a conclusion that you could reach without it.

And anyone who claims Datsyuk is good defensively because he has the puck....you don't understand the difference between 'defense' and 'offense' in that defense only occurs when your team does not have the puck, and 'offense' only occurs when your team has the puck.

[Doggy 130]

Defensive ability is the number one talent to be a good penalty killer...so PK time is one indicator of defensive ability. However, it can only be applied against teammates, and other factors must be taken into account. Speed is another major factor on the PK; it is the reason that Draper, Cleary, and Maltby were all top-four on the Wings in PK time among forwards. And finally, a good physical game is the third and least important major factor in PK. I wouldn't argue Maltby as significantly better defensively than Drake, Franzen, or Datsyuk...but he is a better penalty killer because he is still wicked fast and a good hitter. Drake, Franzen, and Dats cannot claim to be both fast AND among the team's best hitters.

However, trying to use PK time to judge between teams gets dicey; as not all teams are equally talented defensively.

Plus-minus is a fairly useless statistic; its value in determining defensive ability is limited to rating a complete line's two-way ability. It has very little individual value as a player can gain a plus or a minus without being involved in the play in any way, and it does not reflect every situation. It shows that the DZH line was the best two-way line in hockey, but that was a conclusion that you could reach without it.

And anyone who claims Datsyuk is good defensively because he has the puck....you don't understand the difference between 'defense' and 'offense' in that defense only occurs when your team does not have the puck, and 'offense' only occurs when your team has the puck.

I don't know about that.

Datsyuk +41

Zetterberg +30

Holmstrom +9

If I understand what you're trying to say correctly, those stats contradict it.

Edited June 15, 2008 by Doggy

[eva unit zero 271]

I don't know about that.

Datsyuk +41

Zetterberg +30

Holmstrom +9

If I understand what you're trying to say correctly, those stats contradict it.

They didn't play every shift or game together; much of Dats and Z's plus-minus numbers were acquired during a stretch where Homer was out and Franzen was having a hot streak in his spot. For every even strength goal Franzen scored during his hot streak, it was a plus for Z and D that H didn't get.

Oh...and name another regular forward line whose members add up to +80. The closest is Spezza's line, which is +74.

That backs up my original point, yes?

[Doggy 130]

They didn't play every shift or game together; much of Dats and Z's plus-minus numbers were acquired during a stretch where Homer was out and Franzen was having a hot streak in his spot. For every even strength goal Franzen scored during his hot streak, it was a plus for Z and D that H didn't get.

Clutching at straws Eva. Although you never do back down, so I expected some stupid answer like that.

Oh...and name another regular forward line whose members add up to +80. The closest is Spezza's line, which is +74.

Not what I was getting at. I never said anything about ZDH not having the best +/-

[eva unit zero 271]

Clutching at straws Eva. Although you never do back down, so I expected some stupid answer like that.

Not what I was getting at. I never said anything about ZDH not having the best +/-

I stated that +/- showed the DZH line as the top two-way line in the league. The fact that it had two top-ten scorers who were also Selke finalists is another completely independent measure of this.

[Doggy 130]

I stated that +/- showed the DZH line as the top two-way line in the league. The fact that it had two top-ten scorers who were also Selke finalists is another completely independent measure of this.

You stated that it had very little to do with the individual player. I was just pointing out that that is obviously untrue.

[eva unit zero 271]

You stated that it had very little to do with the individual player. I was just pointing out that that is obviously untrue.

Plus/minus is probably the skater equivalent of GAA. It is certainly AFFECTED by the player's skill, but the players around him all factor into it a great deal as well. It is not a stat that is primarily determined by the player's ability with only minor influence from his surrounding cast, the way stats like goals, blocked shots, or save percentage are. Plus/minus is certainly unreliable as a defensive statistic...unless you think Pavel Bure (60 goals, 110 points, +35) was better defensively in 1993 than Doug Gilmour (32 goals, 127 points, +32) despite the fact that Bure has always been considered a liability, while Gilmour won the Selke that year.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Plus/minus is probably the skater equivalent of GAA. It is certainly AFFECTED by the player's skill, but the players around him all factor into it a great deal as well. It is not a stat that is primarily determined by the player's ability with only minor influence from his surrounding cast, the way stats like goals, blocked shots, or save percentage are. Plus/minus is certainly unreliable as a defensive statistic...unless you think Pavel Bure (60 goals, 110 points, +35) was better defensively in 1993 than Doug Gilmour (32 goals, 127 points, +32) despite the fact that Bure has always been considered a liability, while Gilmour won the Selke that year.

The bottom line is Datsyuk won it. Didn't he lead the Wings in hits in the post season as well? He was much more physical than Z, just another reason why I think Dats is the better all around player.

And I don't know about your black and white definition of offense and defense. So a defenseman deep in his own zone, up against the boards, eating time away at the end of a game with his skate pinned down on top of the puck is playing offense? I mean, he has possession of the puck so by your standards he is.

[eva unit zero 271]

The bottom line is Datsyuk won it. Didn't he lead the Wings in hits in the post season as well? He was much more physical than Z, just another reason why I think Dats is the better all around player.

And I don't know about your black and white definition of offense and defense. So a defenseman deep in his own zone, up against the boards, eating time away at the end of a game with his skate pinned down on top of the puck is playing offense? I mean, he has possession of the puck so by your standards he is.

Based on your situation, a quarterback who takes a knee is playing defense. That's obviously not true; those kinds of plays fall into a grey area where it's not really either. Obviously, my definition refers to a VAST MAJORITY of situations and is not guaranteed to be exactly right every time.

However, i was responding more to the comment about Dats always having the puck making him the best defensive forward; when Dats has the puck it is typically in an OFFENSIVE situation, as is it with any other player.

But, I'll provide a less puck-centric definition:

Defense is when the goal of your action is to prevent a scoring chance. Offense is when the goal of your action is to create a scoring chance.

While technically Dats prevents the opponent from scoring while he has the puck, and he has the puck often,...so do Alex Ovechkin, Evgeni Malkin, and Joe Thornton. None of them is a Selke contender.

I would say, and have said for years, that Z is better at preventing scoring chances than Dats.

And btw...if Datsyuk is more physical...yet plays less than Z on the PK, doesn't that help my point that Z is the better defensive player? If Datsyuk and Z are about equal in speed, and Dats is more physical, then what makes Z the better PKer? The only other major factor left is defense.