Who's Number shouhld Get retired? All NHL?

[Jedi 1,865]

Holy Redundancies, Batman!! It's a good thing we didn't already have several discussions about Fedorov's number being retired!!

Joe Sakic signed an offersheet from the Rangers and Mark Messier took the money in Vancouver, so I guess you think those players shouldn't have their numbers retire by their teams?

Yeah, because Colorado is so respected for their jersey retirement decisions... The criteria that other teams use for their jersey retirements means nothing to the Detroit Red Wings. It's safe to say that they're a fair bit more stringent with their number retirements than, say, the Habs, who have 14 jerseys retired...

While Feds was a very key part of the 3 recent Cup runs, his mannerisms when he left (and when he tried to leave in '98) pretty much eliminate him from contention for having his jersey retired. Not to mention that he compared leaving the Wings to defecting from the Soviet Union. I mean, he gets booed everytime he touches the puck at the Joe! You're kidding yourself if you think the Wings will retire the number of a player who now gets BOOED when he steps in the building...

I think BlakChamber said it best a few months ago (though, to be fair, he was talking about Draper's jersey-retirement-worthiness, not Feds')...

Because this is Detroit and not Colorado. Only the best of the best get their number retired. You don't just get your number retired in Detroit for showing up to play and helping out. It's tougher to get your number retired in Detroit than it is to get into the Hockey Hall of Fame, which Draper isn't going to either. There are 33 players in the Hall of Fame that have been Red Wings. There are 6 (Red Wings) retired numbers.

[Reds4Life 51]

OP made huge list, only a few of those players will have their number retired.

Ilya Freakin Kovalchuk? Why? Trashers have no success whatsoever..

I am fairly sure Lidstrom's 5 will be retired immedietaly after he retires. He is the best defenseman we ever had (Red Kelly close second imho).

I doubt Fedorov, Ozzie, Cheli or Shanny will be honored.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Reds4Life

[jawbreaker 0]

Nick will be the only one from the Wings. Fedorov would be second, but he will probably never get it, and because of that Shanny, Ozzie, Cheli doesn't have a chance either. These guys were great (Cheli is still great), but they are pretty far behind #91.

Best Wings in the 90s:

Yzerman - no comments

Nicklas Lidstrom - probably 2-3 greatest D ever, and the best one to ever wear the Wings jersey

Sergei Fedorov - The BEST player in the playoffs, won more awards than #19, one of the best two-way players ever (Hart, Selke, Pearson, and 2nd in Art Ross in the same year are telling it all).

Brendan Shanahan - major reason why Detroit won 3 Cups, but not the biggest. Scored 40 in three seasons out of 9 with the Wings. Great power forward, maybe Hall of Fame, but not the rafters for sure.

Chris Osgood - Won one Stanley Cup as a starter. Solid goalie, but not the greatest of his era. Despite that he has a lot of wins, I doubt if had such great success in another team. Lets imagine that Ozzie would be in the Sabres, and Hasek in the Wings...

He might be in the Hall of Fame one day, but it's not sure.

Chris Chelios - One of the greatest D of his time, but he should be retired as a Hawk. But he might not get it there for the same stupid reasons as #91 in Detroit.

There are some other great players, who gave a lot to the Wings, but somewhat of under-rated:

Slava Fetisov - one the greatest D to play the game (I think that he is not so far behind Nick), but spent his best years in Soviet Union. Spent only 3,5 seasons in Mototown, but added great leadership to win two Cups.

Igor Larionov - One of the smartest (if not the smartest) players ever. Brain of the KLM line, and the Russian Five. Great leader, mentor. I think that his heart was really Winged, it's a shame that he did not retire as a Wing. And maybe Datsyuk would never be as good as he is, if not Larionov.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Holy Redundancies, Batman!! It's a good thing we didn't already have several discussions about Fedorov's number being retired!!

OMFG!!! BURN DOWN THE BRIDGES! PANIC! PANIC!

I'm sorry I just find it funny you got your panties in a bunch over two polls that were made. Especially when one was made A YEAR AGO. Find something else to ***** about.

[eva unit zero 271]

Of current and former Wings, this is the order they are deserving of jersey retirement:

#5 Lidstrom - Top 5 all-time great defenseman. Best in the league for a decade. Lock.

#30 Osgood - Second best Wings goalie of all-time. First goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965. A few more solid years should lock it up.

#91 Fedorov - He was a better player for the Wings for longer than Sid Abel, who has his number retired. That said, he left on a very bad note. If he returns to the team and plays well, he'll get it. If not, it's unlikely.

#14 Shanahan - The league's top power forward for his first couple seasons in Detroit, and one of the best players on the team. Probably didn't play long enough on the Wings to earn it, and was a 'hired gun' unlike the existing retirees. He chose to sign elsewhere, which also could hurt him as he is less likely to return than Fedorov.

And a note....

Fedorov did compare leaving Detroit to leaving the USSR. But not in the sense that many are portraying it. He said it referring to the fact that he was leaving everything he knew for somewhere else he had never lived. Not referring to the oppression suffered in the former USSR, and not because of the cold climate.

[thedisappearer 291]

#30 Osgood - Second best Wings goalie of all-time. First goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965. A few more solid years should lock it up.

Really? I'm pretty confident I can name... say... twenty goalies who have played since Ozzie came into the league who are, without question, better. I love Ozzie and all... but really?

[eva unit zero 271]

Really? I'm pretty confident I can name... say... twenty goalies who have played since Ozzie came into the league who are, without question, better. I love Ozzie and all... but really?

You need to take a reading comprehension class...but I'll break it down for you.

Roger Crozier was the best goalie in the league in 1965. Osgood is the first Wings netminder to contend for that honor (1996) since Crozier won it. Therefore, Osgood is the first goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965.

EDIT: You can name 20 goalies who have played since 1993-94 who are without question better than Osgood? I would love to see this list...because I'm sure you have names like Kiprusoff, Nabokov, and Richter on it.

Edited April 6, 2008 by eva unit zero

[Tane 17]

Your post is too scattered, too messed up, I got the idea... Didn't read it all, but I scrolled down and had a little glance at something completely messed up... PAT FALLOON?! Number retired by San Jose?! Can you please explain this?

It's a team by team look at players who could potentially have their numbers retired.

Pat Falloon, IMO the Greatest Player Not in the Hall of Fame. The Fact that #17 is Still in Circulation is a disgrace to Hockey. If I don't See Pat in the Hall, and His Number Retired Within the Next 3 years, I will stop being a fan of hockey.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Tane

[RedFX 48]

Joe Sakic signed an offersheet from the Rangers and Mark Messier took the money in Vancouver, so I guess you think those players shouldn't have their numbers retire by their teams?

As for using contract disputes and free agency as some way to paint Fedorov as a selfish player who didn't care about playing for Detroit, you're going to have to do better than that.

Oh, and Fedorov was more than a stats player, so I have no idea what you're talking about there.

I must say, it's going to be a fun night on Letsgowings when it's announced that #91 will be hanging next to #19. I'm looking forward to it.

Big difference. Those two stayed/returned. When you look at the Red Wing jerseys that are already retired, Fedorov doesn't match that criteria. If you went by some of the teams in the league, Luc Robitaille would have his jersey up there.

Edited April 6, 2008 by RedFX

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Right now Lids is the only "lock."

Oz and Feds should both be retired.

Who is going to be 91 on the Wings in the future anyway? Some ballsy rookie who will NEVER live up to the number? Some player who was 19 on another team who signs with Detroit?

Fedorov is 91. Just like Yzerman is 19, Vladdy is 16, and Howe is 9. Maybe the fact that we associate the number with one player only is enough to retire it... and maybe the 3 Cups, Hart, Selke, Pearson, finalist for the Conn Smythe two times and the best two-way player in Wings history should have some weight.

[HomeNugget 2]

It's a team by team look at players who could potentially have their numbers retired.

Pat Falloon, IMO the Greatest Player Not in the Hall of Fame. The Fact that #17 is Still in Circulation is a disgrace to Hockey. If I don't See Pat in the Hall, and His Number Retired Within the Next 3 years, I will stop being a fan of hockey.

i added the sarcastic ninja to your post so people can tell you're being sarcastic.

[jawbreaker 0]

You need to take a reading comprehension class...but I'll break it down for you.

Roger Crozier was the best goalie in the league in 1965. Osgood is the first Wings netminder to contend for that honor (1996) since Crozier won it. Therefore, Osgood is the first goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965.

EDIT: You can name 20 goalies who have played since 1993-94 who are without question better than Osgood? I would love to see this list...because I'm sure you have names like Kiprusoff, Nabokov, and Richter on it.

All palyers that are retired by the Wings were the greatest players of their era. They are all legends. Do you actually think that Ozzie is THAT good. I could say that Roy, Marty, CuJo, Hasek are living legends, but it's funny (or even pathetic) to compare Ozzie with them. Wings are retiring only legendary players, and #5 is the only one, who is that good. Osgood is great goalie, but he doesn't have a chance to make even a TOP3 of his time. Retire his number for one Cup (as a strarter), William M. Jennings Trophy, and Vezina nomination? I don't think so...

[eva unit zero 271]

Big difference. Those two stayed/returned. When you look at the Red Wing jerseys that are already retired, Fedorov doesn't match that criteria. If you went by some of the teams in the league, Luc Robitaille would have his jersey up there.

I am assuming that the Robitaille comment is a dig at Colorado about Raymond Bourque. The difference, of course, is that Bourque was still an elite talent and key component of the cup winning avs team he played on. Robitaille was depth scoring in Detroit. A better comparison to Bourque would be Hasek if he had stayed retired after 2002.

I would disagree about Fedorov matching the on-ice criteria. He is arguably the third best Wings forward ever, and is certainly top five. The Wings currently have five forwards whose numbers are retired, not including Larry Aurie. The argument against Fedorov is whether the way he left means he shouldn't be honored in that way. And your answer to that depends largely on your view of 'how he left' and whether it was for a little bit more money/fame or because over the course of contract negotiations, the deals presented to him lost 1 year and $18m from the first deal to the last, with the year being the important part.

[Creasemonkey 30]

Joe Sakic signed an offersheet from the Rangers and Mark Messier took the money in Vancouver, so I guess you think those players shouldn't have their numbers retire by their teams?

As for using contract disputes and free agency as some way to paint Fedorov as a selfish player who didn't care about playing for Detroit, you're going to have to do better than that.

Oh, and Fedorov was more than a stats player, so I have no idea what you're talking about there.

I must say, it's going to be a fun night on Letsgowings when it's announced that #91 will be hanging next to #19. I'm looking forward to it.

Unless you're Mike Ilitch himself (who by the way won't even hang Aurie's number), you don't really have the status to do anything other than speculate like the rest of us, but having the guff to be right just because you say so is mildly admirable, if not something I'd ever try myself. Welcome back to earth. Thanks for playing though. We'll add your name to the list, how do you take your crow?

Let's just break down what it took for other guys to get their number retired:

Sid Abel: 12 seasons as a Wing, after which he was traded and played merely 2 seasons as a Blackhawk player/coach (totaling 42 games during which he scored 9 total points)

Alex Delvecchio: 23 seasons, all as a Red Wing.

Gordie Howe: 24 seasons as a Red Wing, one other NHL season years later after 6 in the WHA. Mr. F'ing Hockey.

Ted Lindsay: 13 seasons as a Red Wing before being forced out for starting the players union, a highly unpopular move. 3 seasons as a Hawk before retiring, came back for one more season with Detroit. Quoting Terrible Ted himself: "I just had the desire to wind up my career with the Red Wings," said Lindsay. "I liked playing in Chicago, and I gave them everything I had, but I knew in my heart I was a Red Wing."

Terry Sawchuk: 14 total seasons with the Wings. 3 with the Leafs, 2 with the Bruins, 1 each with the Kings and Rangers. Sawchuk's story is more complicated than the others, and for the sake of expediency, anybody that wants to know how/why he bounced around so much can check his Wiki. When he died, he had been the greatest goaltender in NHL history (and is still considered as such by some). Sawchuk's probably your best argument to say Fedorov should have his number retired, but he was traded to the Bruins and claimed by the Leafs via intraleague waiver draft. He didn't leave willingly, and came back two separate times. Plus you wouldn't get very far suggesting Fedorov's greatness is similar to Sawchuk's.

Steve Yzerman: Should be fresh enough in everybody's mind. Point is he played his whole career here.

Fedorov's name just doesn't belong. Sorry.

[Reilly 24]

Big difference. Those two stayed/returned. When you look at the Red Wing jerseys that are already retired, Fedorov doesn't match that criteria.

There's no list of criteria or requirements to get your jersey retired by Detroit. They retire the best Red Wings of all-time and Fedorov is one of them, which is why his number will be up there.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Reilly

[thedisappearer 291]

You need to take a reading comprehension class...but I'll break it down for you.

Roger Crozier was the best goalie in the league in 1965. Osgood is the first Wings netminder to contend for that honor (1996) since Crozier won it. Therefore, Osgood is the first goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965.

EDIT: You can name 20 goalies who have played since 1993-94 who are without question better than Osgood? I would love to see this list...because I'm sure you have names like Kiprusoff, Nabokov, and Richter on it.

Osgood has NEVER been the best goalie in the league. Need evidence? OK, how about the lack of a freaking Vezina? Sure, technically, you can argue anything. But realistically, you can't argue Osgood is or ever was the best in the league.

Maybe 20 is a tad too high but here goes...

I'll start with the two other Wings goalies to win Cups, Vernon and Hasek. Toss in Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, and yes, Richter.

Now, let's add those goalies are not guarenteed a trip to the HoF, but have actually been awarded the Vezina... you know.. for being the best goalie in the league that year. Kipper, Theodore, Ollie, and *shudder* Carey.

Grant Fuhr was still around. The Beezer. Hextall, too. As a matter of fact, Ozzie and Hextall remind me a lot of each other, career-wise. Except Hextall having a Vezina and all.

Who else? Barasso. Damn, I forgot Luongo.

That adds up to...carry the one... 15. Sure, four of them maybe not be better, but they actually won a Vezina, meaning for a season, they were the best goalie in the league. Honest question- what is the highest Ozzie has ever finished in Vezina voting?

So anyway, not 20. But more than 10. Actual HoFers and Vezina winners. And Luongo.

[eva unit zero 271]

All palyers that are retired by the Wings were the greatest players of their era. They are all legends. Do you actually think that Ozzie is THAT good. I could say that Roy, Marty, CuJo, Hasek are living legends, but it's funny (or even pathetic) to compare Ozzie with them. Wings are retiring only legendary players, and #5 is the only one, who is that good. Osgood is great goalie, but he doesn't have a chance to make even a TOP3 of his time. Retire his number for one Cup (as a strarter), William M. Jennings Trophy, and Vezina nomination? I don't think so...

Ozzie is top five of his era. Top 3 is a little tougher to make...but at the same time you have to consider he is going against THREE goaltenders who all have been or will be called by some as 'the greatest ever' so it's not by not being Top 3 he's a dime a dozen player.

Furthermore...the only NHL goaltender other than Sawchuk and Osgood to spent ten seasons or more in Detroit? Jim Rutherford...who was pretty terrible by comparison. Osgood has been one of the league's top goalies several times in his career AS A RED WING. I would argue Osgood has more often been among the best goalies as a Wing than Shanahan was among the best forwards or Chelios among the best defensemen. Yet those two get spoken of for retirement on here, because they were great players with great careers. Guess what? Ozzie was better than them as a Wing, and has been a Wing longer than them. If you have better quality AND more quantity, you are more deserving of jersey retirement no?

[RedFX 48]

There's no list of criteria or requirements to get your jersey retired by Detroit. They retire the best Red Wings of all-time and Fedorov is one of them, which is why his number will be up there.

I know there's no official criteria, but if you look at the resume of the players already up there, Fedorov just doesnt match up. All of those guys had played all or most of their careers in Detroit, and if they left, they were either cut or traded. If you think Delvecchio or Lindsay would have sat out half a season to pick up some extra dough, then by all means throw 91 up there. The six players up there are up there because they put the team before themselves. If you think Fedorov did that, then we must be talking about another Fedorov.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Wow! It's been a whole month since we had a thread like this on LGW. Seriously, nothing has changed. Ozzie's number shouldn't be retired, and for whoever started this thread, Linden's number shouldn't be retired either.

Numbers should be retired for greatness, and not just longevity with the team. Linden is not even close to being HOF worthy. His longevity in Vancouver should not be a factor in retiring his number. If it was, then the Wings should retire Draper and Maltby's numbers since they've been here a long time too.

Naslund is probably the only Canuck whose number I see being retired, if he finishes up his career there.

[Mac is Back 0]

It seems everyone is forgetting that Fedorov left for LESS money because the Wings organization did not deal with his situation very well. He had been having personal problems for years and the Wings really didn't want to deal with him, so they told him take the deal or leave. Kinda puts him in a rough position if you ask me. I wish he would have stayed but i can see why he would want to be treated with more respect. The reason they didn't try harder to keep him is because Yzerman didn't care for his attitude about his problems and influences management to just give him a 'take it or leave it' deal.

Im glad most of you here are still supporters of Feds, but the haters need to get their info straight before they start cursing him out. He was one of the best players to wear the winged wheel in the modern era. I hope to get to see him pull the sweater on again before he call it quits. But I don't blame him if he want to play with AO.

[joshy207 156]

Wow! It's been a whole month since we had a thread like this on LGW. Seriously, nothing has changed. Ozzie's number shouldn't be retired, and for whoever started this thread, Linden's number shouldn't be retired either.

Numbers should be retired for greatness, and not just longevity with the team. Linden is not even close to being HOF worthy. His longevity in Vancouver should not be a factor in retiring his number. If it was, then the Wings should retire Draper and Maltby's numbers since they've been here a long time too.

Naslund is probably the only Canuck whose number I see being retired, if he finishes up his career there.

So you're saying Stan Smyl was better than Trevor Linden? Teams can retire numbers for whatever reason they want. The Hall of Fame is for greatness.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

So you're saying Stan Smyl was better than Trevor Linden? Teams can retire numbers for whatever reason they want. The Hall of Fame is for greatness.

I know teams can do whatever they want, but as a fan of the game, I wouldn't want teams to retire numbers right and left, just based on longevity. That's what would happen if Linden's number was retired.

[DaKineMaui 8]

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me, putting his jersey up there would be an insult to 1, 7, 9, 10, 12 & 19.

Nope - you're right. You're exactly right.

Federov - no.....didn't and doesn't give a s*** about Detroit.

Shanny - no.....No male with the name 'Brendan' allowed.

"LGW Potential HOF Threads" though? By all means. There shoulda been one in the rafters long ago.

[eva unit zero 271]

Osgood has NEVER been the best goalie in the league. Need evidence? OK, how about the lack of a freaking Vezina? Sure, technically, you can argue anything. But realistically, you can't argue Osgood is or ever was the best in the league.

Maybe 20 is a tad too high but here goes...

I'll start with the two other Wings goalies to win Cups, Vernon and Hasek. Toss in Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, and yes, Richter.

Now, let's add those goalies are not guarenteed a trip to the HoF, but have actually been awarded the Vezina... you know.. for being the best goalie in the league that year. Kipper, Theodore, Ollie, and *shudder* Carey.

Grant Fuhr was still around. The Beezer. Hextall, too. As a matter of fact, Ozzie and Hextall remind me a lot of each other, career-wise. Except Hextall having a Vezina and all.

Who else? Barasso. Damn, I forgot Luongo.

That adds up to...carry the one... 15. Sure, four of them maybe not be better, but they actually won a Vezina, meaning for a season, they were the best goalie in the league. Honest question- what is the highest Ozzie has ever finished in Vezina voting?

So anyway, not 20. But more than 10. Actual HoFers and Vezina winners. And Luongo.

Osgood was the best goalie in the league in 1996. He finished second that year. Carey did beat him for the Vezina, but that was a case of voters being blinded by shutout numbers. Ozzie had better GAA and save percentage, and a better W-L record. Most big publications, including THN, named Ozzie as the league's top goaltender that year. That certainly fits my bill as the only Wings netminder 'arguably the best goalie in the league' since Crozier. No other Wings goalie has been a first team or second team all star either from 1966-1995 or from 1997-2007.

As far as much of your list...I would disagree with many on the list. Case in point: Scott Stevens or Paul Coffey? Who was better. Most people will say Stevens. Coffey owns three Norris trophies to Stevens' zero. So what does it mean? Perhaps a player who had a higher peak hasn't necessarily had a better career? I would argue that Fuhr did not deserve the Vezina in 1988--Patrick Roy did. Fuhr to me is one of the most overrated goaltenders in history. He was a GOOD goaltender on an AMAZING team. Osgood has better numbers despite having had worse teams in better divisions. And many of the guys you mentioned won their Vezinas in the 80s, like Fuhr. Had Osgood played in the 80s instead of the 90s, he is likely to win two or three Vezinas. I have said it on this topic before...the quality of goaltending in the 80s was horrendous. Any of the 30 starters in the league and several backups would have been perrenial Vezina contenders had they played in the 80s. There were maybe four or five goalies playing then who would have been capable of starting consistently in today's NHL.

So the use of ONLY Vezina awards in the 1980s to suggest that a goaltender was better than someone who didn't play until the mid 90s is a bit of a weak argument. Like arguing that Brad Park was a worse defenseman than Rob Blake. Just not true. Only one guy played his prime opposite Bobby Orr.

As for the inclusion of Luongo...if both goalies retired today I would say Osgood has had the FAR superior career. Luongo will now be facing serious questions about his clutch performance after how poorly he performed down the stretch with Vancouver fighting for a playoff spot. Osgood has been in that situation before (2002 and 2004) and played phenomenally to carry his team into the postseason.

Vernon was not better than Osgood. Richter has never come as close to the Vezina as Ozzie did in 1996, and doesn't have the career stats that Ozzie does. He also doesn't have a better playoff pedigree. Why exactly do people keep trying to say he was better?

I would argue that Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek have been better. Osgood falls into the second tier of guys with Belfour, Barrasso, Vernon, etc. and I would argue he is at or near the top of that group.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Of current and former Wings, this is the order they are deserving of jersey retirement:

#5 Lidstrom - Top 5 all-time great defenseman. Best in the league for a decade. Lock.

#30 Osgood - Second best Wings goalie of all-time. First goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965. A few more solid years should lock it up.

#91 Fedorov - He was a better player for the Wings for longer than Sid Abel, who has his number retired. That said, he left on a very bad note. If he returns to the team and plays well, he'll get it. If not, it's unlikely.

#14 Shanahan - The league's top power forward for his first couple seasons in Detroit, and one of the best players on the team. Probably didn't play long enough on the Wings to earn it, and was a 'hired gun' unlike the existing retirees. He chose to sign elsewhere, which also could hurt him as he is less likely to return than Fedorov.

And a note....

Fedorov did compare leaving Detroit to leaving the USSR. But not in the sense that many are portraying it. He said it referring to the fact that he was leaving everything he knew for somewhere else he had never lived. Not referring to the oppression suffered in the former USSR, and not because of the cold climate.

Yes on Lids

No way on Ozzie, Feds or Shanahan, Meech is already wearing #14