Higher All Time Ranking: Yzerman or Lidstrom?

[Hank 0]

I love Yzerman but I'd have to say that when Nick retires he'll probably be consider greater than Yzerman. Possibly even Howe.

What he's done is incredible. 6 Norris Trophy's (if he doesn't win this year, it's a crime), 4 Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe.

He's routinely been recognized as the greatest hockey player on the planet.

But here's my argument for Yzerman.

During his prime, he didn't have half the team that Lidstrom does.

Stevie was turning 20 goal scorers like Gallant into 40+ scorers. He routinely put up 100+ points and 50+ goals despite having a supporting cast that was laughed at most nights.

If you put that same, prime Yzerman, on the Detroit team over the past 5 years, who know's what he could have accomplished.

Imagine him with Datsyuk on his left-wing? Or running a PP with Lidstrom, Rafalski, Zetterberg and Homer?

In the end Lidstrom will probably still take the nod, but I still don't think Yzerman got as much credit as he deserved when he was younger. He never had a Kurri to pass to in his best years. Imagine if he did? 180 points in the late 80's wouldn't have been out of the question.

[egroen 384]

A real great comparison for Yzerman, all time, is Sakic...

Putting homerism aside, I flip-flop a lot on who is ranked higher, but they are always right next to each other.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I would have never considered saying this years ago, but even though I currently have Yzerman higher on my all time list, I can see this changing when Lidstrom hangs his skates, because he'll have at least 6 Norris trophies, and a decade of pure dominance on defense, plus he's perfect as a player.

Yzerman never quite dominated his era the way Lidstrom has. A lot of that is because of Gretzky and Lemieux, but still, Lidstrom might go down in history as a better player because he's the best at his position for 10 years. Only a few players in history have been the best at their position for 10 years. Also, Lidstrom has been more durable even in his later years, while Yzerman at this point in his career had already began to decline and was riddled with injuries.

Anyway, feel free to debate this topic.

Amongst forwards, Stevie ought to be in that top 15 group IMO.

However, Lidstrom is arguably the greatest defensman ever. I never saw enough of Orr to really compare the 2. But Lidstrom is the consummate pro. He never takes a day off and he's goddamned near perfect all the time. He's gonna get his 6th Norris trophy and let us all not forget that prior to his 1st Norris, he was the runner up 3 consecutive years. Had he won we'd be talking about Lidstrom getting his record 9th norris trophy right now.

Lidstrom IMO should go down in the top 10 all time skaters. I don't know how he can't be considered when Orr and maybe Harvey are the only 2 other D men that could be better than him.

[PaVel DaTsYuK fan13 0]

Incredibly close, but I have to say Nick. He has all the individual hardware, as well as the 4 cups. He's shown he can win the cup as a captain. I have all the love in the world for Stevie, but Nick is absolutely phenomenal.

[egroen 384]

Lidstrom IMO should go down in the top 10 all time skaters. I don't know how he can't be considered when Orr and maybe Harvey are the only 2 other D men that could be better than him.

Orr, Shore, Harvey and Bourque are all ahead of Lidstrom right now.

Many have Potvin and even Kelly ahead of him... and some will still argue for Robinson, Fetisov, Park and even Chelios over Lidstrom.

It's all subjective, of course, but the biggest knocks against Lidstrom are:

Lack of competition -- Chelios and Bourque were right there w/ Lidstrom when they were 40, how many Norrisses would Lidstrom have against these guys if they were in their prime? 3-4?

Lack of physical play -- you can say Lidstrom doesn't need it, but it is an element of defense that can not be completely discounted.

I have a really hard time seeing Yzerman in the top 15, all time, as well. I think you are ignoring, or discounting a lot of years of hockey.

Edited June 10, 2008 by egroen

[Reds4Life 51]

Orr, Shore, Harvey and Bourque are all ahead of Lidstrom right now.

Many have Potvin and even Kelly ahead of him... and some will still argue for Robinson, Fetisov, Park and even Chelios over Lidstrom.

It's all subjective, of course, but the biggest knocks against Lidstrom are:

Lack of competition (Chelios and Bourque were right there w/ Lidstrom when they were 40, how many Norrisses would Lidstrom have against these guys if they were in their prime?)

Lack of physical play -- you can say Lidstrom doesn't need it, but it is an element of defense that can not be completely discounted.

Kelly as a defenseman is behind Lidstrom for sure.

Potvin is very close but Nick just got higher than Denis Potvin.

Shore ahead of Lidstrom..I will never ever understand that, yes he won 4 Harts..but in what era? Game is so different now, Lidstrom is better in both offensive and defensive game. Harvey is also very close to Lidstrom, but I would put him even behind Potvin. Orr and Bourque are still ahead and I doubt Lidstrom can catch them.

As for Robinson, Fetisov, Park (LOL) and Chelios..they are all behind by fair margin.

Lack of competition argument is simply not right because there is no way you can tell how would he do. You can also say that any defenseman who did not play against Orr faced lack of competition. If Lidstrom played in 80's he might be very well all time points leader for defencemen.

You can also claim that he would beat Harvey for Norris..but this is all would could..it does not matter.

Lack of physical play..that is not knock against Lidstrom simply because he does not need to be physical, he is already one of the best defensive guys ever and his smart positional play allows him to be healthy all the time and he is the most durable player in Hockey history.

And Yzerman is NOT top15 forward. Top30, maybe top25 forward.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Reds4Life

[Texas Wingnut 0]

No question, Stevie Y is the best of all time to don the winged wheel. Without a doubt Nick is the best defenseman and while I recognize the grace and skill he plays the game with is without equal today he didn't have to bring a team up from the depths like Stevie did. Stevie came in as an offensive star, gave hope to a franchise and then became the consumate leader and team player.

[Reds4Life 51]

No question, Stevie Y is the best of all time to don the winged wheel. Without a doubt Nick is the best defenseman and while I recognize the grace and skill he plays the game with is without equal today he didn't have to bring a team up from the depths like Stevie did. Stevie came in as an offensive star, gave hope to a franchise and then became the consumate leader and team player.

No way. Gordie Howe, Terry Sawchuk, Nicklas Lidstrom and Ted Lindsay were all better than Steve Yzerman.

[xtrememachine1 795]

Highest all time ranking? Lidstrom. He's one of the top 3 defensemen of all time.

Highest Red Wings ranking? Yzerman, for sure. He was the heart and soul of the team for many years and I can't look at the Wings logo without thinking of him.

[Chaldean 0]

I see them being neck-in-neck, but if Lids leads us to another title, maybe more, then I think it will then be obvious.

No way. Gordie Howe, Terry Sawchuk, Nicklas Lidstrom and Ted Lindsay were all better than Steve Yzerman.

You can't compare the players from the 40s and 50s to todays. Its just not reasonable.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Chaldean

[DEVILSWATERBOY 10]

At this time I am going to have Yzerman higher for now, probably the biggest reason is that he changed his style of play to win the cup, he went from a high scoring forward to a defensive forward. He put all his stats aside and played to win championships through the mid 90's. Heres a question what would Stevies stats be like if he never changed his style of play?

[egroen 384]

Kelly as a defenseman is behind Lidstrom for sure.

Potvin is very close but Nick just got higher than Denis Potvin.

Shore ahead of Lidstrom..I will never ever understand that, yes he won 4 Harts..but in what era? Game is so different now, Lidstrom is better in both offensive and defensive game. Harvey is also very close to Lidstrom, but I would put him even behind Potvin. Orr and Bourque are still ahead and I doubt Lidstrom can catch them.

As for Robinson, Fetisov, Park (LOL) and Chelios..they are all behind by fair margin.

I agree on Kelly, but it is debateable -- Kelly was putting up 50 pts as a defenseman when 25 was considered excellent. He also played a very similar style defensively to Lidstrom... cerebral, not physical. Adding Kelly's center years bumps him above Lidstrom for a lot of people (though not IMO).

I think Lidstrom is better than Potvin, but a *LOT* of people would disagree. Potvin definitely had a better peak than Lidstrom... and he was mean as hell.

Harvey is still ahead of Lidstrom and Potvin, IMO. 7 Norrises.

Shore was the best player of his era, and one of the most complete players ever. He was putting up points before defensemen put up points, and his toughness is legendary.

Few all-time hockey player lists would not have Shore and Harvey in the top ten.

[egroen 384]

No way. Gordie Howe, Terry Sawchuk, Nicklas Lidstrom and Ted Lindsay were all better than Steve Yzerman.

I would add Hasek and Kelly.

Though Hasek's best years were obviously not in Detroit.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Orr, Shore, Harvey and Bourque are all ahead of Lidstrom right now.

Many have Potvin and even Kelly ahead of him... and some will still argue for Robinson, Fetisov, Park and even Chelios over Lidstrom.

It's all subjective, of course, but the biggest knocks against Lidstrom are:

Lack of competition -- Chelios and Bourque were right there w/ Lidstrom when they were 40, how many Norrisses would Lidstrom have against these guys if they were in their prime? 3-4?

Lack of physical play -- you can say Lidstrom doesn't need it, but it is an element of defense that can not be completely discounted.

I have a really hard time seeing Yzerman in the top 15, all time, as well. I think you are ignoring, or discounting a lot of years of hockey.

Just because there are people out there dumb enough to think Fetisov, Chelios, Park or Robinson is better doesn't mean anything other than those people are ******* idiots. Bluntness required there, sorry.

Lack of competition argument? That's ridiculous. I've never heard that. I'm not saying you came up with that knock but its stupid regardless. They don't ask who you played against, they just ask what you did. Nobody will hold it against Lidstrom that he didn't play against Bourque in his prime. That's some of the dumbest s*** i've ever heard. If we want to be that nitpicky, we can just flip flop that and say, how many norris trophies would Orr or Potvin have won had Lidstrom played against them in their prime. Your example seems to imply that Lidstrom's numbers would suffer if he played in a different period of time. That's purely speculative and holds no absolute truth to it. It's an assumption. Those other players could have done worse having to compete against Nick so its a moot point from which nothing can be concluded definitively.

As for Yzerman, why must I be ingoring or discounting anything.

6th all time NHL points

8th all time NHL goals

7th all time NHL assists

9th all time playoffs points

3 Stanley Cups

Arguably the greatest leader of all time

1 Con Smyth

1 Pearson

1 Masterton

1 Selke

10 time all star

I won't mention any of his international accolades since we're only talking NHL here.

Found this tidbit on Wiki: Ranked 6th greatest player since 1967 (post expansion era) by The Hockey News

Look, i'm not trying to pawn off my opinion that Yzerman should be that high up, but given the numbers he put up and the awards he won, it isn't beyond all comprehension that an argument could be made in his favor.

[pavyaz19 1]

This thread makes me want to puke... Lidstrom will never be anywhere near Steve Yzerman.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

This thread makes me want to puke... Lidstrom will never be anywhere near Steve Yzerman.

He is if you can be objective about it.

Not everyone is capable of that though but I'm sure you are good at something.

[toby91_ca 620]

Bobby Orr was amazing defensively as well as offensively. Just look at his plus/minus rating.

I'm really not a fan of +/- stats in telling much of a story. Look at Gretzky's +/- stats, some years he was +100, pretty insane. Does that mean he was great defensively?

Not saying Orr wasn't great defensively, but I just wouldn't assume it because of +/- stats. I wasn't watching hockey when Orr was playing (was born near the end of his career), so I can't really give an honest comment on him.

[Guest redwingsfan04]

Stevie is in a whole different league!

way way way better than Lids imo

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Yzerman ranks for me as the greatest warrior the NHL has ever seen. Stevie was one of the best team leaders ever in the NHL, right there with Messier for me. He was always a good scorer and passer and was very very rarely ever irresponsible on the ice.

Lidstrom will go down in my book as the greatest defensman I have ever seen play the game. I never had the privilage of seeing Bobby Orr play, but I know he was truly an excellent player. The NHL has adapted into a much more physicaal game than it used to be back in the 60s and 70s, and for it to be absolutely dominated by a player who is not your goonish physical defensman is truly an accomplishment. Nick has never taken a stupid penalty, is the perennial favorite for the Norris, and he is the best 2-way defenseman in the league.

But what Steve Yzerman did was come into a hockey team that was struggling, into a city that wasn't doing so great, and shamelessly work to bring that team to greatness. He brought a city to their feet. He was a key instrument in the creation of "Hockeytown." He brought awareness to hockey.

Yzerman may have been injury prone at the end of his career, but no one fought back from injuries like Stevie. At the end of Lidstroms career, I think he will go down as one of the greatest players the game has seen along with Yzerman, but in my book he will still be ever so slightly behind Stevie.

[egroen 384]

You are way off with this statement:

The NHL has adapted into a much more physicaal game than it used to be back in the 60s and 70s, and for it to be absolutely dominated by a player who is not your goonish physical defensman is truly an accomplishment.

Ever heard of the Broad Street Bullies? Fans from back then ***** constantly about how sissified hockey has become.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

You are way off with this statement:

Ever heard of the Broad Street Bullies? Fans from back then ***** constantly about how sissified hockey has become.

However, Lidstrom has had to face a lot bigger forwards than Orr, Harvey, Robinson, or Potivn ever had to face. Despite that, he's never been overmatched once against any of those physical forwards on a consistent basis.

Thus, his lack of physicality is not a weakness in the least bit. In fact, it's probably a benefit, since it keeps him out of the box.

[Earthhuman 8]

Definitely amazing. No doubt about it. I'm strictly pointing out that you could get an argument from some fans that his offense was a detriment to playing pure defense. Their styles of play, though the same position, vary almost as differently as comparing a winger to a defenseman. It's difficult to compare any two players in hockey because everyone's style or manner is different - if only slightly. To compare two players like Orr and Lidstrom will take much more brain power than I've got.

Another number that doesn't seem to come up when Orr vs. Lidstrom arguments arise is Stanley Cups. By my count, it's 4-2 Lidstrom.

But the years played to cups won ratio is about the same. At least closer than 2:1

[egroen 384]

... when Orr vs. Lidstrom arguments arise...

These arguments do not arise... except on a Red Wings message Board.

[Earthhuman 8]

I'm stunned. I thought for sure this would be a thread on how great Yzerman is. I was looking forward to it.

One more thing to keep in mind is, in any given game, there may be 2 truly elite defensemen on the ice, maybe. In that same game, there could be as many as 5 truly elite forwards. The pool is much deeper for Yzerman.

[Barrie 900]

I don't think you can compare the two since one was a forward and the other is a defenceman. There's twice as many forwards dressed each game (12/6). Other than Bobby Orr (who I think is the greatest player ever), I don't think it's a fair debate since the two positions are completely different.

Maybe I'm a wuss but I'm not picking one over the other.