History Repeats

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

So GMR all the consistent players in their prime get into the HHOF now?

It is not the Hall of Consistency, He had 2 great years that were HHOF quality, other than that he was better than average, by quite a bit, but other than his two really big years he was not spectacular, plus for the years he was great in the post season there are years he was relied on and the team went no where, his fault or not.

Plus team awards mean nothing, not having a Stanley cup could be a detering factor, however it is not going to be automatic because he has 3 Cups, how many players from the Oil's streak beyond the top line and pairings are in the HHOF, and that team was LEGENDARY!!! As much of a wings fan as I am, the Wings were not as dominant as that team was.

Again he was ppg guy, no doubt I would always want a PPG guy on my team not denying his skill, however PPG does not get you into the HHOF, especially if he keeps having years where he plays 75+ games and scores 40pts that will drop his average.

Again for 5-9 this guy was a great player, was the best wing for a period of about 3-5 years (Raw skill wise) but the drop off makes it like the goalie argument, the team around him obviously is partly responsible for his numbers, otherwise why when he left did his numbers drop, his first year in ANA was the only year where he put up Fedorov type numbers.

Look at the comparison I made, Jagr and Feds came into the league the same year:

Jagr Career stats

1273gp 646g 953a 1599pts

Fedorov Career Stats

1213gp 472g 674a 1146pts

Jagr without a doubt sure fire HHOFer, Feds I am not so sure.

Again my opinion. But this is definitely a debatable topic.

He was one of the top 10 players in the world for a long time, and I can differentiate him from guys who played on the Oilers 2nd and 3rd lines in terms of talent and in terms of the Hart trophy and the 2 Selke trophies that he won. Those players you briefly alluded to were just complementary stars, while he was a superstar. He was also a guy who made 6 all star games and was actually held back statistically from playing on a team where the scoring was always so balanced. If not for that, he would have scored even more.

And what will put him over the top is his international accomplishments, such as the 3 World Championships and the silver and bronze medals in the Olympics. Remember that this is the Hockey Hall of Fame, and not just for the NHL.

If he doesn't get in, then why should Glenn Anderson have gotten in or Cam Neely, who didn't win jack s*** in his career?

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

There is a list 50 miles long (depending on font ) of players that had unbelievable single seasons, yes that is one of the best single seasons in history and he deserved all of the accolades he received that year.

I say look at it this way

Feds #'s

1213 472 674 1146

Dino C's #'s

1232 608 592 1200

Is Dino in the Hall, no! The argument made for him is that he is the only 600 goal scorer not in the HHOF, Feds would need at least 3 more seasons at his current rate to get to 600 goals. I am not saying Feds couldn't or won't make it in, I am saying he is not a lock! And IMO he is not HHOF, again when he was a wing he was one of my favorites, if that was one of the HHOF criteria there would be more Wing's in there and less from other teams, but unfortunately my opinion means jacks*** with the HHOF!

I still say that he's a lock, and as for Dino, he was not a complete player and doesn't have the international accolades nor the Stanley Cups to show for it. Also, as far as I know he doesn't have any individual awards. He was just a product of playing in an era where everyone scored goals.

The only way he doesn't get in on his first try is if he has to compete with a class that was better than him, such as Lidstrom or Chelios if they all retire at the same time. Even then, he'll get in within 3 years of retirement. In other words, he would be a lock all along.

[Opie 308]

I loved Cam Neely but I agree with you 100% Cam is not HHOF quality, that was the voters saying sorry about the injuries.

Again I use the Dino analogy Dino is the only 600 goal scorer not in the HHOF, he and feds have similar point totals but Feds will need a lot to get to 600.

But without looking at the name does 472g 674a 1146pts scream HHOF to you, and to tell you the truth while it is HHOF I think the international game has very little to do with players anymore, I think Larionov will be the last because his prime was during a time when he couldn't play in the NHL.

I mean s*** he was 1/3 of (IMO) the best forward Hockey line ever, and only 2/3 of that line are in the HHOF.

Again, no slight to his skill but those Russian teams were stacked which when voters look at will hurt him, undeservedly so.

But whether or not he is HHOF is debatable, his numbers especially compared to people he played with are not staggering.

Shanny 1490 650 690 1340

Yzerman 1514 692 1063 1755

I truly think the 600 goal mark will be his hang up. If he could have scored more with the Wings that could have affected his stats, IF the system was different.

But instead of IFS lets deal with known qualities, after leaving the Wings when he had the chance to be the focal point when he was presented with being the #1 option on teams that were less offensively balanced than the wings what were his point totals then? I would say the wings spreading things around actually helped his stats as opposed to hurt them! But that is just me.

Edit: GMR I posted this before I saw your second post!

Edited July 11, 2008 by Opie

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Fedorov's lack of scoring upon leaving Detroit had to do with playing for lousy teams and becoming too old to do the things he used to do.

THe only thing that might work against him is an occasional attitude problem and a commitment problem, but I still think that his accolades more than make up for it.

If he doesn't get into the HOF, then there are certain guys already there who need to be removed, because he's easily one of the 100 greatest ever to play the game.

[Opie 308]

I still say that he's a lock, and as for Dino, he was not a complete player and doesn't have the international accolades nor the Stanley Cups to show for it. Also, as far as I know he doesn't have any individual awards. He was just a product of playing in an era where everyone scored goals.

The only way he doesn't get in on his first try is if he has to compete with a class that was better than him, such as Lidstrom or Chelios if they all retire at the same time. Even then, he'll get in within 3 years of retirement. In other words, he would be a lock all along.

I would wager that he will only get in first Ballot if it is a weak class, his numbers don't scream HHOF, and remember this isn't voters from the 80's were they knew these guys in and out. Now it is an age where the voters are going to look at his numbers both international and NHL and make a judgement.

I don't know anyone who got into the HHOF because they were a great two way player or they had a complete game, I know a bunch of guys who are in the Hall because what they did on the ice that you would say they were a great player or they were a complete player.

That would be like saying Stevie is in the hall because of his leadership abilities, being able to play two way or being able to play D and forward will not help his cause, the Selkes and Hart may.

He played with sure fire first Ballot HHOFers as well as players who were at the time some of the best in the world, Yzerman, Shanny, Fetisov, Larionov (even though he had shown his age a little by then), Lids (wasn't the greatest in the world then but is now so it really has no barring and not sure why I put it), Hull, Hasek.

He was surrounded by guys whose numbers blow his away and that is only on his team, again not his fault.

And for all of those "great" playoff numbers how many Conn Smythes did he win?

Not saying you are wrong it is your opinion he is a lock, just defending my opinion, much like I assume you are defending yours!

BTW this has got to be the most civilized Feds Discussion EVER!!!!!!!!

That was a compliment!

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

It shouldn't matter that he played with great players. Just about every great player in the history of the game played on some teams that were loaded with Hall of Famers. Fedorov is no exception to that. As I've already said, when he left Detroit, he was past his prime which explains his scoring decline.

And Fedorov is a guy that I would definitely say was a great player in his own right, even if he never won anything in his career. I don't know what would make you think otherwise, since he was always so dominant out there in his prime, which lasted quite a long time.

[LeftWinger 5,132]

...Lidstrom and Osgood WILL have their numbers retired. It's a lock...

...I do like the argument for Homer, he has been SO important for us over his years. Even before Z and D showed up, he was killing other teams in our longer playoff runs. Although he may not have the stats to actually get his number retired, there aren't many other players I can see wearing the #96, just because it's not a very common number to put on. Are there any other 96's int he league right now?

5 and 30 for sure. IF Z and D stay and continue their torrid pace, then #13 and #40 will have to go up...

...I've changed my mind on #91, he may still get his number retired, but I am not as sure about it now as I once was. I'd kinda like to see #96 up there, especially if the ZDH line stays together for a long time, it would be sorta like honoring the Production Line...

...unfortunately #33, #18 or #25 will NOT be up there, although they've given their NHL lives to this city and franchise ( I honestly don't see them EVER siging anywhere else (of course McCarty was a special case.))

[egroen 384]

Is Dino in the Hall, no! The argument made for him is that he is the only 600 goal scorer not in the HHOF, Feds would need at least 3 more seasons at his current rate to get to 600 goals. I am not saying Feds couldn't or won't make it in, I am saying he is not a lock! And IMO he is not HHOF, again when he was a wing he was one of my favorites, if that was one of the HHOF criteria there would be more Wing's in there and less from other teams, but unfortunately my opinion means jacks*** with the HHOF!

Dino is not the best person to compare him to because of the era Dino played in. Despite his high numbers, he was never top 5 in points, never a post-season All-Star, never won a Cup, was a very dirty player involved in one of the nastiest stick-swinging incidents ever, and was an ******* away from the rink to boot. Even in goal scoring, he only finished the season once 4th in goals, once 5th in goals and in 16 other years was never in the top ten. I am not necessarily against Dino making it into the HHOF, but Fedorov's accomplishements and accolades far, far, far surpass Ciccerelli's.

[LeftWinger 5,132]

Dino is not the best person to compare him to because of the era Dino played in. Despite his high numbers, he was never top 5 in points, never a post-season All-Star, never won a Cup, was a very dirty player involved in one of the nastiest stick-swinging incidents ever, and was an ******* away from the rink to boot. Even in goal scoring, he only finished the season once 4th in goals, once 5th in goals and in 16 other years was never in the top ten. I am not necessarily against Dino making it into the HHOF, but Fedorov's accomplishements and accolades far, far, far surpass Ciccerelli's.

...I totally agree with most of your post, but I've met Dino plenty of times outside the rink and he was fine. He didn't come off as an idiot or and ass. Maybe he was one just to the media...

...he is one of the four guys that I wish were still a Wing for at least 1 of our Stanley Cups, the other's are Probert, Burr and Gallant...

...with a honorable mention to Steve Chiasson, who, while a Red Wing was by far one of the best we had on the blue line, easily our #2 behind Lidstrom when he broke in... God Rest His Soul...

Edited July 11, 2008 by LeftWinger

[betterREDthandead 58]

The "teammates" idea is a given. Howe played for the Red Wings for 25 seasons. Yzerman 22. That's about 2/3 of the time the Red Wings have been in existence. It would be pretty hard to find a player who didn't play with one of those guys, but still played with the Wings long enough to get their jersey retired.

The teammates idea is because of winning the Stanley Cup - it really boosts the odds of getting your name up there. Naturally, the greatest players from dominant eras get their numbers retired.

[Holmstrom96Screens 0]

...Lidstrom and Osgood WILL have their numbers retired. It's a lock...

...I do like the argument for Homer, he has been SO important for us over his years. Even before Z and D showed up, he was killing other teams in our longer playoff runs. Although he may not have the stats to actually get his number retired, there aren't many other players I can see wearing the #96, just because it's not a very common number to put on. Are there any other 96's int he league right now?

5 and 30 for sure. IF Z and D stay and continue their torrid pace, then #13 and #40 will have to go up...

...I've changed my mind on #91, he may still get his number retired, but I am not as sure about it now as I once was. I'd kinda like to see #96 up there, especially if the ZDH line stays together for a long time, it would be sorta like honoring the Production Line...

...unfortunately #33, #18 or #25 will NOT be up there, although they've given their NHL lives to this city and franchise ( I honestly don't see them EVER siging anywhere else (of course McCarty was a special case.))

Thank you ! xD

I'm glad some people do see my point of view ......

nice to know.

5 and 30 are no brainers. Everyone's pretty much in agreement on number 5 even though we're more divided on 30 ...but im one of the ones who agree with 30 being up there.

yes if the DZH line stays together and continues on their streak.....it will almost be like a 21 century production line wouldnt it? Cuz they're pretty much one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful NHL line right now.

btw no one actually needs to try and build a case for Homer. Its already there.

You cant argue with facts xD

*ok off my soapbox now*

Edited July 12, 2008 by Holmstrom96Screens

[betterREDthandead 58]

Thank you ! xD

I'm glad some people do see my point of view ......

nice to know.

5 and 30 are no brainers. Everyone's pretty much in agreement on number 5 even though we're more divided on 30 ...but im one of the ones who agree with 30 being up there.

yes if the DZH line stays together and continues on their streak.....it will almost be like a 21 century production line wouldnt it? Cuz they're pretty much one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful NHL line right now.

btw no one actually needs to try and build a case for Homer. Its already there.

You cant argue with facts xD

*ok off my soapbox now*

Precisely why 30 shouldn't be retired.

And again: If you have to "build a case" then there is no case at all. Should be screamingly obvious.

[norrisnick 1]

So GMR all the consistent players in their prime get into the HHOF now?

It is not the Hall of Consistency, He had 2 great years that were HHOF quality, other than that he was better than average, by quite a bit, but other than his two really big years he was not spectacular, plus for the years he was great in the post season there are years he was relied on and the team went no where, his fault or not.

Plus team awards mean nothing, not having a Stanley cup could be a detering factor, however it is not going to be automatic because he has 3 Cups, how many players from the Oil's streak beyond the top line and pairings are in the HHOF, and that team was LEGENDARY!!! As much of a wings fan as I am, the Wings were not as dominant as that team was.

Again he was ppg guy, no doubt I would always want a PPG guy on my team not denying his skill, however PPG does not get you into the HHOF, especially if he keeps having years where he plays 75+ games and scores 40pts that will drop his average.

Again for 5-9 this guy was a great player, was the best wing for a period of about 3-5 years (Raw skill wise) but the drop off makes it like the goalie argument, the team around him obviously is partly responsible for his numbers, otherwise why when he left did his numbers drop, his first year in ANA was the only year where he put up Fedorov type numbers.

Look at the comparison I made, Jagr and Feds came into the league the same year:

Jagr Career stats

1273gp 646g 953a 1599pts

Fedorov Career Stats

1213gp 472g 674a 1146pts

Jagr without a doubt sure fire HHOFer, Feds I am not so sure.

Again my opinion. But this is definitely a debatable topic.

Watch this.

I wouldn't trade Fedorov's tenure with the Wings for any other player that was active at the time. Not a single other player would have been a better fit or contributed more towards the overall success of the Wings while he was here.

[norrisnick 1]

I would wager that he will only get in first Ballot if it is a weak class, his numbers don't scream HHOF, and remember this isn't voters from the 80's were they knew these guys in and out. Now it is an age where the voters are going to look at his numbers both international and NHL and make a judgement.

I don't know anyone who got into the HHOF because they were a great two way player or they had a complete game, I know a bunch of guys who are in the Hall because what they did on the ice that you would say they were a great player or they were a complete player.

That would be like saying Stevie is in the hall because of his leadership abilities, being able to play two way or being able to play D and forward will not help his cause, the Selkes and Hart may.

He played with sure fire first Ballot HHOFers as well as players who were at the time some of the best in the world, Yzerman, Shanny, Fetisov, Larionov (even though he had shown his age a little by then), Lids (wasn't the greatest in the world then but is now so it really has no barring and not sure why I put it), Hull, Hasek.

He was surrounded by guys whose numbers blow his away and that is only on his team, again not his fault.

And for all of those "great" playoff numbers how many Conn Smythes did he win?

Not saying you are wrong it is your opinion he is a lock, just defending my opinion, much like I assume you are defending yours!

BTW this has got to be the most civilized Feds Discussion EVER!!!!!!!!

That was a compliment!

He could have won any of the three while he was here and should have won in '97.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Precisely why 30 shouldn't be retired.

And again: If you have to "build a case" then there is no case at all. Should be screamingly obvious.

Actually I don't know if our opinion matters on the issue. If management in Detroit believes he should be retired, then it really isn't up to us.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Actually I don't know if our opinion matters on the issue. If management in Detroit believes he should be retired, then it really isn't up to us.

Well, let's go ahead and shut down the board then. No point in discussing who we oughta trade or sign or who should play where or what contract anyone deserves, or anything more interesting than YAY TEAM! Since it's up to the management and not us.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Well, let's go ahead and shut down the board then. No point in discussing who we oughta trade or sign or who should play where or what contract anyone deserves, or anything more interesting than YAY TEAM! Since it's up to the management and not us.

How about you turn off defensive mode and understand the fact that I disagreed with the assertion that Ozzie shouldn't be retired based solely on the fact that we are debating it. I never said anything saying it was dumb to discuss the issue. Geez get a grip.

[egroen 384]

If Osgood wins another Cup as a starter, quietly breaks a few more of Sawchuk's records and gets top 5 for Vezina voting, does a case still have to be built for him?

[stevie for president 42]

people on here honestly dont think fedorov deserves to be in the hockey hall of fame?

maybe im being a super homer, but wasnt fedorov considered a top 5 player in the world for a majority of his career? hes gonna score 500 goals, he is generally known as an outstanding 2 way player, and he can do some special things in washington this year.

either i feel too highly of him or some people feel too low about him, but if he isnt hall of fame worthy, who is?

p.s. is Peter Forsberg HHOF worthy?

[egroen 384]

p.s. is Peter Forsberg HHOF worthy?

Of course he is... From 1996 to the lockout in 2004 Forsberg's name was always in the conversation about who the league's best player was. As good as Fedorov was in the playoffs, Forsberg was better. Twice he led the playoffs in points in years where his team didn't even reach the final.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

people on here honestly dont think fedorov deserves to be in the hockey hall of fame?

maybe im being a super homer, but wasnt fedorov considered a top 5 player in the world for a majority of his career? hes gonna score 500 goals, he is generally known as an outstanding 2 way player, and he can do some special things in washington this year.

either i feel too highly of him or some people feel too low about him, but if he isnt hall of fame worthy, who is?

p.s. is Peter Forsberg HHOF worthy?

Unfortunately yes, because he was considered by many to be the best player in the world for several years. Also, he has the hardware to show for it and the international accomplishments.

The fact that he's a piece of trash who should get hit by a beer truck is not something the voters will consider.

[55fan 5,133]

Unfortunately yes, because he was considered by many to be the best player in the world for several years. Also, he has the hardware to show for it and the international accomplishments.

The fact that he's a piece of trash who should get hit by a beer truck is not something the voters will consider.

Good heavens, man! You actually think Floppa should get hit by a beer truck? What kind of a heartless person are you? Do you realize that hundreds of people will have to wait for a beer if that happens? Beer is not to be toyed with to fulfill your fantasies. Make it a spam truck.

On topic (my opinion only): Lids is a lock. Ozzie is a strong maybe (not a lock because I do not get to make the decision). Dats and Zata are on course for it should they stay and continue as they are playing now.

Lots of guys deserve recognition for their efforts. If it was a Wings HOF, I'd nominate Mac, Drapes, and Homer (just talking active players here) because of what they bring to the team. The HHOF looks at the individual. These are team guys. We're lucky it's our team.

Personally, I think that the fewer numbers retired, the better. It just makes it that much more special and meaningful. Besides, there are only 99 numbers out there without resorting to #41c or #34.36 or the infinity symbol.

[betterREDthandead 58]

How about you turn off defensive mode and understand the fact that I disagreed with the assertion that Ozzie shouldn't be retired based solely on the fact that we are debating it.

Then why didn't you say so in the first place?

[eva unit zero 271]

Of course he is... From 1996 to the lockout in 2004 Forsberg's name was always in the conversation about who the league's best player was. As good as Fedorov was in the playoffs, Forsberg was better. Twice he led the playoffs in points in years where his team didn't even reach the final.

Fedorov was always in the conversation from 1994 to 2003. He holds the league's record for most consecutive 20+ point playoff seasons, and won the Selke twice in three years (1994, 1996) and finished top four in voting every year from 1992 through 1996, and finished 7th in 1997.

Speaking of the Selke, a minor threadjack speaking to how good Detroit is defensively...bonus points to anyone who can name the which two of the Wings' "regular" 12 forwards did not receive at least one fifth-place Selke vote for 2007-08.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Fedorov was always in the conversation from 1994 to 2003. He holds the league's record for most consecutive 20+ point playoff seasons, and won the Selke twice in three years (1994, 1996) and finished top four in voting every year from 1992 through 1996, and finished 7th in 1997.

Speaking of the Selke, a minor threadjack speaking to how good Detroit is defensively...bonus points to anyone who can name the which two of the Wings' "regular" 12 forwards did not receive at least one fifth-place Selke vote for 2007-08.

Homer and Hudler.