All-time Red Wing team

[Stu in Israel 0]

I found the following unsigned story on the Sporting News and thought others might be interested in it. My own feeling is this: When Usain Bolt crosses the finish line in first place, there's no doubt about who won, but when it comes to judgmental awards ( Oscars, Emmys, Pulitzers, Nobel Prizes, the NCAA mythical football champion, etc.) there's bound to be arguments. So, have a go at it, if you want.

All Time Red Wings

Line 1 RW- G. Howe C- S.Yzerman LW- T. Lindsey

Line 2 RW- H. Zetterberg C- P. Datsyuk LW- A. Delvecchio

Line 3 RW- S. Fedorov C- N. Ullman LW- B. Shanahan

Line 4 RW- M. Redmond C- I. Larionov RW- J. Ogrodnick

Defense- N. Lidstrom & V. Konstantinov

Defense- M. Pronovost & R. Kelly

Defense- C. Chelios & R. Larson

Goalies- (1)T. Sawchuk (2)C. Osgood

Coach- S. Bowman

Players underlined are in the Hall of Fame or will be when eligible. Let me know if I missed someone.

Give me your thoughts Wing fans. I tried to get players that played at least five years for the Red Wings or will be into their fifth year.

[norrisnick 1]

Gotta love the RWs being listed on the left...

Mine... (wingers out of position at times)

Fedorov - Yzerman - Howe

Lindsey - Delvecchio - Ullman

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Shanahan

Abel - Larionov - Aurie

Lidstrom - Kelly

Goodfellow - Konstantinov

Stewart - Pronovost

Sawchuk

Osgood

Bowman

[toby91_ca 620]

I found the following unsigned story on the Sporting News and thought others might be interested in it. My own feeling is this: When Usain Bolt crosses the finish line in first place, there's no doubt about who won, but when it comes to judgmental awards ( Oscars, Emmys, Pulitzers, Nobel Prizes, the NCAA mythical football champion, etc.) there's bound to be arguments. So, have a go at it, if you want.

All Time Red Wings

Line 1 RW- G. Howe C- S.Yzerman LW- T. Lindsey

Line 2 RW- H. Zetterberg C- P. Datsyuk LW- A. Delvecchio

Line 3 RW- S. Fedorov C- N. Ullman LW- B. Shanahan

Line 4 RW- M. Redmond C- I. Larionov RW- J. Ogrodnick

Defense- N. Lidstrom & V. Konstantinov

Defense- M. Pronovost & R. Kelly

Defense- C. Chelios & R. Larson

Goalies- (1)T. Sawchuk (2)C. Osgood

Coach- S. Bowman

Players underlined are in the Hall of Fame or will be when eligible. Let me know if I missed someone.

Give me your thoughts Wing fans. I tried to get players that played at least five years for the Red Wings or will be into their fifth year.

The one thing I can say about this list is Fedorov's placement is nothing short of an absolue joke.

[rwfan007 18]

as good as chelios is/was, he really didn't have his good years here, so I do not think he should be on the all time wing team.

[eva unit zero 271]

Mine is assembled starting with a list of the best players, but at the end filled out to make the best 'team' rather than a collection of stars.

Brendan Shanahan/Steve Yzerman/Sergei Fedorov

Ted Lindsay/Sid Abel/Gordie Howe

Alex Delvecchio/Norm Ullman/Mickey Redmond

Pavel Datsyuk/Henrik Zetterberg/Gerard Gallant

Syd Howe

Nicklas Lidstrom/Vladimir Konstantinov

Red Kelly/Marcel Pronovost

Ebbie Goodfellow/Jack Stewart

Steve Chiasson

Terry Sawchuk

Chris Osgood

[thedisappearer 291]

Steve Chiasson

WTF?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

The one thing I can say about this list is Fedorov's placement is nothing short of an absolue joke.

How so? He played some pretty important parts in helping the Wings win three Stanley Cups. If it is a joke because of line placement, I can maybe understand that, but Shanahan was with the Wings franchise for nearly a decade and played some pretty big roles in helping the Wings win 3 Cups as well, and he is placed on this ficticious 3rd line as well. Shanahan certainly had some playoff flame-outs, but Fedorov had some as well when the Wings were eliminated early.

Edited September 6, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan

[eva unit zero 271]

WTF?

Excellent defensive defenseman, booming shot, good positionally, played well both ways. At his best, he was an All-Star and received Norris votes. He also played the best years of his career as Detroit's top defenseman, back when the team was a regular season powerhouse but still a playoff flop.

[norrisnick 1]

How so? He played some pretty important parts in helping the Wings win three Stanley Cups. If it is a joke because of line placement, I can maybe understand that, but Shanahan was with the Wings franchise for nearly a decade and played some pretty big roles in helping the Wings win 3 Cups as well, and he is placed on this ficticious 3rd line as well. Shanahan certainly had some playoff flame-outs, but Fedorov had some as well when the Wings were eliminated early.

There is no way you can justify putting Fedorov behind Zetterberg, Datsyuk, or Delvecchio. No way. Terrible Ted is pushing it, but he at least has a claim by being the 2nd best LW of all time.

[thedisappearer 291]

Excellent defensive defenseman, booming shot, good positionally, played well both ways. At his best, he was an All-Star and received Norris votes. He also played the best years of his career as Detroit's top defenseman, back when the team was a regular season powerhouse but still a playoff flop.

You are really selling Chiasson as one of the seven greatest defensemen to don the Wonged Wheel?

Well, in fairness, I'd sell that , too.

[dallas27 7]

How so? He played some pretty important parts in helping the Wings win three Stanley Cups. If it is a joke because of line placement, I can maybe understand that, but Shanahan was with the Wings franchise for nearly a decade and played some pretty big roles in helping the Wings win 3 Cups as well, and he is placed on this ficticious 3rd line as well. Shanahan certainly had some playoff flame-outs, but Fedorov had some as well when the Wings were eliminated early.

If you are going purely on skill, Fedorov is the best hockey player to ever put on a Detroit Red Wings jersey. The man made other professional hockey players look like mini-mites out there. By far the best skater as well, you'd be hard pressed to find one better for some time to come.

[egroen 384]

If you are going purely on skill, Fedorov is the best hockey player to ever put on a Detroit Red Wings jersey.

That's a tall order.

Regarding Chiasson -- there have been pleny better on the Wings -- Chelios, M. Howe, Coffey, Murphy... -- but they were not i ntheir prime, so it is hard to weigh.

[dallas27 7]

That's a tall order.

You have watched him play right? More importantly, have you watched him play in person?

Based purely and strictly on skill, Fedorov is the best hockey player to ever wear a winged wheel. How anyone can argue this is beyond me. Is there a better team player? Of course. But if you are going on raw talent, nobody surpasses Fedorov. Unfortunately everyone let's their hatred for Fedorov blind them, and don't you sit there and say it doesn't. Because 99% of the time it does.

[thedisappearer 291]

Regarding Chiasson -- there have been pleny better on the Wings -- Chelios, M. Howe, Coffey, Murphy... -- but they were not i ntheir prime, so it is hard to weigh.

No, it's really not. There are 13 Red Wings defensemen in the Hall of Fame, plus Lids and Vladdie. Chiasson is not one of them. For a reason.

Though he was awesome in NHL 94, yo.

[Tane 17]

There is no way you can justify putting Fedorov behind Zetterberg, Datsyuk, or Delvecchio. No way. Terrible Ted is pushing it, but he at least has a claim by being the 2nd best LW of all time.

I'll Justify it.

Delvecchio played 22 years with the team and served as Captain. Nuff Said. I'd take Datsyuk and Zetterberg over Fedorov. If Datsyuk didn't win the Selke Last year, Zetterberg would have. I'll say all 3 are selke candidates. Fedorov got what 126 points? that's from a time when you'd see 10 100 point scorers though. Dats's 90 something points are, to me equivalent to 100+ points in the early 90's. Z jsut needs to stay healthy and he'll be right there too.

Z Won the Conn Smythe, Fedorov never did.

I'm not saying it's hands down clear cut, But i'm jsut saying it CAN be justified, and I Can Definitely see the case for and against it. But with people's personal Lists, I don't think Z and Dats are a stretch.

Mine

Line 1 Lindsey - Yzerman - Howe

Line 2 Fedorov - Zetterberg - Datsyuk

Line 3 Shanahan - Delvecchio - Ullman

Line 4 Probert - Abel - Redmond

Defence

- Lidstrom - Red Kelly

- Konstantinov - Reed Larson

- Pronovost - Chaisson

G

-Sawchuck

- Cheveld....I mean Osgood

How Does reed Larson not get more love? I knew he was good for us, but I wnet at looked up some stats, he's still 9th in all time Red Wings scoring. i know he played in the 80's but it's weird how nobody ever talks about him.

[toby91_ca 620]

I'll Justify it.

Delvecchio played 22 years with the team and served as Captain. Nuff Said. I'd take Datsyuk and Zetterberg over Fedorov. If Datsyuk didn't win the Selke Last year, Zetterberg would have. I'll say all 3 are selke candidates. Fedorov got what 126 points? that's from a time when you'd see 10 100 point scorers though. Dats's 90 something points are, to me equivalent to 100+ points in the early 90's. Z jsut needs to stay healthy and he'll be right there too.

Z Won the Conn Smythe, Fedorov never did.

I'm not saying it's hands down clear cut, But i'm jsut saying it CAN be justified, and I Can Definitely see the case for and against it. But with people's personal Lists, I don't think Z and Dats are a stretch.

Mine

Line 1 Lindsey - Yzerman - Howe

Line 2 Fedorov - Zetterberg - Datsyuk

Line 3 Shanahan - Delvecchio - Ullman

Line 4 Probert - Abel - Redmond

Defence

- Lidstrom - Red Kelly

- Konstantinov - Reed Larson

- Pronovost - Chaisson

G

-Sawchuck

- Cheveld....I mean Osgood

How Does reed Larson not get more love? I knew he was good for us, but I wnet at looked up some stats, he's still 9th in all time Red Wings scoring. i know he played in the 80's but it's weird how nobody ever talks about him.

I think I tuned out after you said you'd justify it.

[norrisnick 1]

I think I tuned out after you said you'd justify it.

I didn't....

Delvecchio played 22 years and was captain. Great. He was never as good as Fedorov and Sergei served as an alternate behind Yzerman for a while. Can't really hold not wearing the C against him given the circumstances.

As for Pavel and Z... Fedorov has the Hart/Pearson season in his favor along with 2 Selkes. And Sergei's 120 points was good for 2nd behind only Wayne Gretzky in '94. Rather than comparing numbers compare rankings. Pavel and Z weren't 2nd to the greatest scorer of all time. And Sergei was robbed of the Conn Smythe in '97. And Fedorov was at worst 2nd or 3rd in '98 and '02 as well. During his Red Wing tenure no NHLer picked up more playoff points.

It's very easy to hold the '98 holdout and his departure against him, but you have to remember what he did when he was here. It seems far too many people are forgetting or choosing to ignore it because they hold a grudge.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Too lazy to assemble an all time team, but Zetterberg, Datsyuk, and prime Fedorov on a line would be absolutely KILLER.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Was Holmstrom really worse for the Red Wings than Larionov in his post-prime? I don't think so.

Also, Probert should have been on the list.

[eva unit zero 271]

No, it's really not. There are 13 Red Wings defensemen in the Hall of Fame, plus Lids and Vladdie. Chiasson is not one of them. For a reason.

Though he was awesome in NHL 94, yo.

Let's say that for modern-era (post-1967) defensemen we'll use a minimum of 350 games played for Detroit as a benchmark.

That rules out Bill Gadsby, who played his best years elsewhere anyway.

Larry Murphy also. Borje Salming, Brad Park, Paul Coffey and Slava Fetisov didn't play here long enough either.

Chris Chelios clears the mark, but has spent most of his time with Detroit as a third-pairing defenseman while Chiasson was Detroit's best defenseman most of his time in Detroit.

Bill Quackenbush is the only justifiable player who MIGHT take Chiasson's spot as he played long enough in Detroit, but he was traded just a couple years into his prime and continued on to excel for Boston, while Chiasson played his best years for Detroit and was traded after he started to decline rather than as he approached his peak.

Please remember that this is specifically a WINGS All-Time team, not a 'All-Time Team (player must have played at least one game for Detroit)' or else every team would be REQUIRED to include Marcel Dionne, Luc Robitaille, and Brett Hull.

[Booster313 138]

Let's say that for modern-era (post-1967) defensemen we'll use a minimum of 350 games played for Detroit as a benchmark.

That rules out Bill Gadsby, who played his best years elsewhere anyway.

Larry Murphy also. Borje Salming, Brad Park, Paul Coffey and Slava Fetisov didn't play here long enough either.

Chris Chelios clears the mark, but has spent most of his time with Detroit as a third-pairing defenseman while Chiasson was Detroit's best defenseman most of his time in Detroit.

Bill Quackenbush is the only justifiable player who MIGHT take Chiasson's spot as he played long enough in Detroit, but he was traded just a couple years into his prime and continued on to excel for Boston, while Chiasson played his best years for Detroit and was traded after he started to decline rather than as he approached his peak.

Please remember that this is specifically a WINGS All-Time team, not a 'All-Time Team (player must have played at least one game for Detroit)' or else every team would be REQUIRED to include Marcel Dionne, Luc Robitaille, and Brett Hull.

And Dominik Hasek

[thedisappearer 291]

Let's say that for modern-era (post-1967) defensemen we'll use a minimum of 350 games played for Detroit as a benchmark.... Please remember that this is specifically a WINGS All-Time team, not a 'All-Time Team (player must have played at least one game for Detroit)' or else every team would be REQUIRED to include Marcel Dionne, Luc Robitaille, and Brett Hull.

The Wings were around before the expansion in '67, you know? You want to change this from All-time Wings to All-time Wings post 1967 who played the bulk of their productive career in Detroit. Fine. Start *that* thread.

Since we are discussing the *entire* history of the Red Wings, I'll go with players who were judged to be great enough to make the HoF instead of a defenseman who for a few years was really good.

Next you are gonna put Gallant on the third line...

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

You have watched him play right? More importantly, have you watched him play in person?

Based purely and strictly on skill, Fedorov is the best hockey player to ever wear a winged wheel. How anyone can argue this is beyond me. Is there a better team player? Of course. But if you are going on raw talent, nobody surpasses Fedorov. Unfortunately everyone let's their hatred for Fedorov blind them, and don't you sit there and say it doesn't. Because 99% of the time it does.

TBH I'm really glad you have an opinion on him, one which I'm sure many share, but at the end of the day I could put in an argument for Sammy being the best Red Wing of all time and you can't say anything because thats MY opinion (even though I never would lol). To make the best Red Wing team I think you can't fill it with the best players, you need the best ROLE players as well. With role players you have to throw Drapes in there too, bought for a bargain, loyal as hell, great defensively and is a beast in the faceoff circle. But I guess it's all about debate.

[dallas27 7]

TBH I'm really glad you have an opinion on him, one which I'm sure many share, but at the end of the day I could put in an argument for Sammy being the best Red Wing of all time and you can't say anything because thats MY opinion (even though I never would lol).

I can say it's absolute nonsense, especially if you don't make a logical argument.

And many people don't share it, the ones that do don't let their homer goggles and immense hatred for Fedorov get in the way.

To make the best Red Wing team I think you can't fill it with the best players, you need the best ROLE players as well. With role players you have to throw Drapes in there too, bought for a bargain, loyal as hell, great defensively and is a beast in the faceoff circle. But I guess it's all about debate.

The list is going to be different for everyone. Some people go purely on skill, some do role players, some do a mix. For a list like this I don't see how role players factor in at all. If I'm looking for the best possible line(s) I don't take a role player over a superstar. If I'm looking to put a team on the ice it's going to be a little different. Think of this list as an all-star game line-up. Draper and other role players have no means to be in it. Good hockey players no doubt, and I wouldn't trade them, but not deserving of being on the all-star team.

[eva unit zero 271]

The Wings were around before the expansion in '67, you know? You want to change this from All-time Wings to All-time Wings post 1967 who played the bulk of their productive career in Detroit. Fine. Start *that* thread.

Since we are discussing the *entire* history of the Red Wings, I'll go with players who were judged to be great enough to make the HoF instead of a defenseman who for a few years was really good.

Next you are gonna put Gallant on the third line...

The reason I laid out the modern-era thing was because a requirement of 350 games was a bit high for a pre-1967 player; look at the GP leaders for the Red Wings. Most of the guys with more than 350 GP are post-expansion players. Back in the first half of the 20th Century, the seasons were only 20, 30, 50 games long. That requires that a player be a Wing for more seasons.

As far as HOF selection...if a player was one of the better defensemen in the league and played his best years as a Wing and played most of his career in Detroit, that beats a guy who played a couple decent seasons in Detroit after being great somewhere else, or played some solid seasons in Detroit then moved on to be great elsewhere. HOF careers don't necessarily trump non-HOF careers if the HOF was earned OUTSIDE of Detroit and the Detroit years were the low point of the career, and the non-HOF player had excellent years in Detroit which were the high point of his career. Another good example is Luc Robitaille vs Gerard Gallant. Gallant in a second over Robitaille for an all-Wings team...Gallant was better in his best Wings seasons, and played longer for Detroit. Robitaille, obviously, was the better overall player and is the HOFer. But not the better career as a Wing.

If we were to argue 'best careers' or 'best WINGS careers' further, we'd have to make the following comparisons; leaving out Robitaille and Gallant as they've already been mentioned:

Hasek (or Hall) v. Osgood

Chelios/Park/Fetisov/Murphy (or Gadsby/Quackenbush/Salming/M.Howe) v. Konstantinov/Pronovost/Stewart/Chiasson

Bucyk/Hull/Dionne/Larionov v. Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Redmond/S.Howe