A case for #91 in the rafters?

[egroen 384]

Can you find anyone who thinks #'s 1, 7, 9, 10, 12, and 19 don't belong? Anyone at all? I doubt it.

Meantime, can you find anyone who thinks #91 doesn't belong? Oh yes you can.

No Wings fan should ever go to the arena and look at any of the banners there and think any of them don't belong. It taints the rest of them.

Sure: Abel and Delvecchio do not deserve to be in if Kelly is not in. Kelly was twice the hockey player they were. Lindsay was universally despised by all the management in the NHL and one of the most hated and dirty players ever to put on a Red Wings jersey.

The reason you can find so many who think #91 should not be in there is because he is still playing and all the "negatives" are still fresh in our minds... to some, even more fresh than his positives (which is ridiculous).

Fast forward 30 years and no one will care how Fedorov left and his number will be hanging in the rafters, I guarantee it. Just like no one cares that Sawchuk was bats*** crazy and ultimately died from an injury sustained during a fight with his own teamate.

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen

[Majsheppard 203]

Ted didn't betray the Wings for more money.

Eff Sergei.

To hell with him. Draper deserves it more then him, and I wouldn't give him it. Osgood and Lidstrom are the only other ones from the Yzerman era to go up.

[egroen 384]

Ted didn't betray the Wings for more money.

He really did. He defied the coach and management by fighting for the right to earn more money (let's face it, that is really the ultimate purpose of a union, isn't it?). As a result he was stripped of his captaincy and traded away... no question his actions hurt that team, probably a lot more than Fedorov's actions.

You think Lindsay was never called a "greedy player"?

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen

[Guest Shoreline]

To the point, f*** Fedorov. He sure as hell better not have his number go to the rafters at the Joe. The team, or any team at that, shouldn't induct whiny little babies who were good on one night and disappeared on another, throwing a tantrum in the locker room and to the press because he can't be the captain and make 405923249 million dollars a year.

[NickA 39]

Having your number retired is an honor that is earned by much more than just pure statistics, especially with a historic franchise like the Wings. The current numbers that hang from our rafters werent just great players who posted great stats, they were excellent representatives of the Wings, invovled in the community, recognized league- wide, and in many cases, stayed actively involoved with the club until they werent physically able to any more. The mere fact that someone was an "awesome" player or posted incredible stats is only the first piece, not the final say. Fedorov should never have his number retired. His stats were great, but his play was selfish and oftentimes lazy. He had to be talked into playing in the '97 finals by fellow Russian teamates because his shoulder was "sore". He played for himself and not for the team, and since his departure has had zero involvement with the Wings. His jersey will never be retired and rightfully so. Someone like Chris Osgood or Nick Lidstrom is an exmaple of someone who should be considered. HOF numbers, loyalty to the winged wheel, loved by fans and teamates alike, and respected by the entire league. Like some previous people have stated, no one goes to the Joe and has to defend or debate whether or not Delvecchio or Sawchuk should be up there; most people would have to argue their case for Fedorov......isnt that the entire reason of this thread?

Fedorov is a joke, Im a season ticket holder and I enjoy booing him every time he is back in our building.

[StormJH1 231]

5 players from the 50s dynasty are currently in the rafters:

Howe, Sawchuk, Lindsay, Abel and Delvecchio

Certainly well deserved, but this was not the only period of great success in the Red Wings history, and this fact should be represented in the rafters.

There are have 30 teams (or close to it) during the Wings' current run of 4 Cups in 11 years. During the "dynasty" of the 50's, there were only 6. Not to mention you didn't have rampant free agency at the time, and keeping a roster together was MUCH easier from year to year. No offense to the players of the 50's, but what the Wings have done since 1997 has been far more difficult and remarkable than the teams of the 50's. So, looking at it that way, I think that the current generation of Wings great should receive equal or greater representation in the rafters.

Explain to me how Fedorov leaving FA is any different than Shanahan leaving via FA? Both of them wanted more money than the team was willing or able to offer, and wanted a change of scenery. That doesn't make him traitors. The difference, of course, is that Fedorov is Russian. He was also a more valuable Red Wing over a longer period of time than Shanahan was. But you could argue that both belong in the rafters. (But Fedorov first)

[eva unit zero 271]

Yes, but he didn't play his best years here.

I'm on the fence. Federov was a great player in Detroit but I do see the box that retiring his number would open.

Of the guys you listed I think Federov is the most deserving.

As for Vladimir, I like the unofficial retirement of his number, similar to #6.

The box that it would open?

Please list the names of all players who played on the Wings, during or prior to Fedorov, who were equal or greater players as Wings than Fedorov.

I'll give you a hint...most of the list is already hanging from the rafters. Retiring Fedorov's jersey does not open any kind of Pandora's box; he was one of the five best players in the league for his entire prime, and he spent all his best years with the Wings. That can be said about two players he played with; Steve Yzerman and Nicklas Lidstrom.

As far as Osgood...Sawchuk is the only goaltender up there. Osgood is the only Wings goaltender who comes close to Sawchuk in terms of career accomplishments with Detroit, which in and of itself is a pretty strong endorsement. But let's go further and take a look at the major career stats that have been tracked since Sawchuk's day. I'm talking about W-L record, GAA, and shutouts. With Detroit only, here's how Osgood stacks up against Sawchuk. OTLs will simply be lumped into losses for this purpose. Stats for Osgood are current through the Ottawa game.

Sawchuk: 734 GP, 351 W-243 L-132 T, 85 SO, 2.44 GAA, 43636 Mins, 1774 GA

Osgood: 487 GP, 280 W-139 L-46 T, 36 SO, 2.40 GAA, 28009 Mins, 1120 GA, 12129 SA, .908 Sv%

Osgood is signed for two more seasons after this one. Figure he averages 25 wins per season to the end of his contract; that would make him the all-time wins leader on the team. He would also do so with a significantly better record than Sawchuk. If he plays anywhere near as well as he has the past few seasons, he will have a better Detroit career GAA than Sawchuk did as well. The only thing he won't have is shutouts. In other words, Osgood will have won a higher percentage of his starts having allowed fewer goals per game than Sawchuk and having likely been much more consistent in doing so (a goaltender with few shutouts and a low GAA typically has a much smaller variance in the number of goals allowed from game to game than a goaltender who has a large shutout number, as a percentage of his wins, paired with a higher GAA, a combination that can be an indicator of streaky play.

Evgeni Nabokov last season is a good example of this. he had a couple of hot streaks, and won a lot of games due to playing a ton...but Martin Brodeur played just as many, won only two fewer playing on a much weaker team, and posted a comparable GAA with fewer shutouts and a far superior save percentage. Yet the Vezina race was far closer than the statistics suggest it should have been. Nabokov probably should have been 5th or 6th in voting and yet he nearly won the trophy because he played a lot and due to that fact he was inconsistent and not always perfectly reliable, while Brodeur was the rock he has always been.

This is not to say Osgood has always been a steady rock and Sawchuk was inconsistent, but Osgood's stats are actually alarmingly close to Sawchuk's in every area except for shutouts as far as what they've done in a Detroit uniform. If Osgood averages 29 wins per season from now until the end of his contract, he passes Sawchuk's career wins total both as a Red Wing and overall. Hopefully that puts the jersey retirement and Hall of Fame talk into perspective, as 30 wins per season is a perfectly reachable goal for Osgood if he plays 45-55 games.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Thanks, but I think #91 is on a much higher level than #14.

Chelios' accomplishments as a Wing pale in comparison to his accomplishments with Chicago and even Montreal.

I vote for #4 and then finally re-retire #6 (which is just shameful, if you ask me)... Lidstrom is not even retired yet.

Osgood at the very least needs another Cup and to beat more of Sawchuk's records to even be considered. Sawchuk is currently the only goalie up there and is ten times the goalie Osgood ever has been.

Based on a lot of the poster's criteria here for not inducting Fedorov, all of Abel, Lindsay, Sawchuk and Delvecchio would not be in the rafters today.

Who cares what happened with Ted Lindsay and Jack Adams 8 thousand years ago when there were only 6 teams and they didn't play as many games as they do today. So statistically, I could care less what Fedorov's accomplishments are in comparison to anybody currently hanging from the rafters.

As for Feds stats on their own, obviously he has the credentials to hang from the rafters.

That being said, the team ain't owned or operated by Adams. The Illitch's own it. The fans, from what I have seen a majority are against it, right or wrong in your mind doesn't matter. What matters is what the people who control this think and what today's fans think and right now it's apparent that raising 91 would go over about as well as a loud fart in church.

If they do ever retire his jersey I will applaud it and hope he doesn't get booed off the stage. But as a gambling man myself, i'd take that bet that it'll never happen. I'll even give you odds.

[egroen 384]

To the point, f*** Fedorov. He sure as hell better not have his number go to the rafters at the Joe. The team, or any team at that, shouldn't induct whiny little babies who were good on one night and disappeared on another, throwing a tantrum in the locker room and to the press because he can't be the captain and make 405923249 million dollars a year.

Having your number retired is an honor that is earned by much more than just pure statistics, especially with a historic franchise like the Wings. The current numbers that hang from our rafters werent just great players who posted great stats, they were excellent representatives of the Wings, invovled in the community, recognized league- wide, and in many cases, stayed actively involoved with the club until they werent physically able to any more. The mere fact that someone was an "awesome" player or posted incredible stats is only the first piece, not the final say. Fedorov should never have his number retired. His stats were great, but his play was selfish and oftentimes lazy. He had to be talked into playing in the '97 finals by fellow Russian teamates because his shoulder was "sore". He played for himself and not for the team, and since his departure has had zero involvement with the Wings. His jersey will never be retired and rightfully so. Someone like Chris Osgood or Nick Lidstrom is an exmaple of someone who should be considered. HOF numbers, loyalty to the winged wheel, loved by fans and teamates alike, and respected by the entire league. Like some previous people have stated, no one goes to the Joe and has to defend or debate whether or not Delvecchio or Sawchuk should be up there; most people would have to argue their case for Fedorov......isnt that the entire reason of this thread?

Fedorov is a joke, Im a season ticket holder and I enjoy booing him every time he is back in our building.

Such bitter fans... man, you guys would have hated Lindsay with a passion, Kelly and Sawchuk you would despise and you would probably have never forgiven Howe for playing in the WHA.

I can think of a few bad things about Fedorov, but I can also think of thousands of great things he did while in Detroit, as a player and for the community (and still does in the community). Wings fans such as you are about the only hockey fans in the NHL who do not like and greatly respect Fedorov.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Sure: Abel and Delvecchio do not deserve to be in if Kelly is not in. Kelly was twice the hockey player they were. Lindsay was universally despised by all the management in the NHL and one of the most hated and dirty players ever to put on a Red Wings jersey.

I first of all call BS on this. What makes you say so?

Fast forward 30 years and no one will care how Fedorov left and his number will be hanging in the rafters, I guarantee it. Just like no one cares that Sawchuk was bats*** crazy and ultimately died from an injury sustained during a fight with his own teamate.

Second, fine. Raise it up in 30 years then. If and when there comes a time when people say, "wait a minute, Sergei Fedorov was one of the greatest Wings of all time and did this that and everything else, why isn't his number retired?" and there's very little disagreement, then great - do it. Til then it's the wrong idea. Do it today and there's the very real chance of booing at the ceremony. Then nobody would remember Sergei Fedorov as the smooth-skating scoring machine and all-around excellent hockey player that he was - they'd remember he was the guy who got booed at his own ceremony. And even if there isn't, and you still raise the banner, and people watch it rise and think it's bulls***, it's forever bulls*** because that's how people will remember it. If history is kind to his legacy, retire it then. Not when there are so many people who think it's wrong. Again: If there are enough nonbelievers out there that you have to "make the case", the answer is no.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

He really did. He defied the coach and management by fighting for the right to earn more money (let's face it, that is really the ultimate purpose of a union, isn't it?). As a result he was stripped of his captaincy and traded away... no question his actions hurt that team, probably a lot more than Fedorov's actions.

You think Lindsay was never called a "greedy player"?

Comparing what Ted Lindsay did to what Fedorov did is absurd. Lindsay wasn't so much fighting the Wings as he was fighting the establishment. What he did altered how the business of hockey was conducted. It's probably one of the most monumental achievements in our sports history.

Fedorov held out didn't he? And then signed an offer sheet with Carolina.

Then he left for Anaheim.

I don't see where Lindsay fighting for the rights of players has anything to do with Fedorov looking for the biggest paycheck he could get every time his contract came up.

From an elementary level, in the end yes, both were trying to get the most bang for their buck. But Lindsay's motivation was more about getting some fairness for the players for whom without, there would be no league. Feds was just looking to get paid. What Lindsay did was honorable and done with the best interests of not only himself. What Fedorov did had nothing to do with honor and everything to do with doing what was best and getting the most for himself.

Apples and Iguanas their situations are so different.

[HomeNugget 2]

There are have 30 teams (or close to it) during the Wings' current run of 4 Cups in 11 years. During the "dynasty" of the 50's, there were only 6. Not to mention you didn't have rampant free agency at the time, and keeping a roster together was MUCH easier from year to year. No offense to the players of the 50's, but what the Wings have done since 1997 has been far more difficult and remarkable than the teams of the 50's. So, looking at it that way, I think that the current generation of Wings great should receive equal or greater representation in the rafters.

Explain to me how Fedorov leaving FA is any different than Shanahan leaving via FA? Both of them wanted more money than the team was willing or able to offer, and wanted a change of scenery. That doesn't make him traitors. The difference, of course, is that Fedorov is Russian. He was also a more valuable Red Wing over a longer period of time than Shanahan was. But you could argue that both belong in the rafters. (But Fedorov first)

You don't retire numbers like that. You don't say "Well, 5 players from the 50's have their numbers in the rafters so we have to retire at least 5 more to make it fair." From this era we have Yzerman and Lidstrom. After those two you don't start retiring random numbers to come up with something equal to or greater than five. That's just retarded.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Such bitter fans... man, you guys would have hated Lindsay with a passion, Kelly and Sawchuk you would despise and you would probably have never forgiven Howe for playing in the WHA.

I can think of a few bad things about Fedorov, but I can also think of thousands of great things he did while in Detroit, as a player and for the community (and still does in the community). Wings fans such as you are about the only hockey fans in the NHL who do not like and greatly respect Fedorov.

Nah, actually most blue collar, working class hockey fans can appreciate why Lindsay did what he did.

Conversely, your average Joe will never understand signing an RFA offer sheet to play for Carolina over millions and millions of dollars.

[eva unit zero 271]

There are have 30 teams (or close to it) during the Wings' current run of 4 Cups in 11 years. During the "dynasty" of the 50's, there were only 6. Not to mention you didn't have rampant free agency at the time, and keeping a roster together was MUCH easier from year to year. No offense to the players of the 50's, but what the Wings have done since 1997 has been far more difficult and remarkable than the teams of the 50's. So, looking at it that way, I think that the current generation of Wings great should receive equal or greater representation in the rafters.

Explain to me how Fedorov leaving FA is any different than Shanahan leaving via FA? Both of them wanted more money than the team was willing or able to offer, and wanted a change of scenery. That doesn't make him traitors. The difference, of course, is that Fedorov is Russian. He was also a more valuable Red Wing over a longer period of time than Shanahan was. But you could argue that both belong in the rafters. (But Fedorov first)

Fedorov has even said would have signed Fedorov did NOT want more money. This has been explained over and over. He left for LESS money. Fedorov agreed to a five year deal worth $50m, but when he showed up to sign he was presented with a 4yr, $40m deal. That was later reduced to a 4yr/$38m deal Fedorov has said he would have signed for the total value of $38m if it had been for 5 years; the length was the sticking point and the money was not an issue. If Fedorov had signed that $38m deal and it had been for 5 years, then his cap hit would have been $7.6m before the 24% adjustment coming out of the lockout, making his cap hit 5.776 after the lockout. This would be evened out by a slight reduction in the new contracts of Zetterberg and Datsyuk, as well as the Wings never acquiring Robert Lang.

[betterREDthandead 58]

I first of all call BS on this. What makes you say so?

Also may I remind anyone who cares to make the case for Red Kelly, that Kelly's three best seasons happened wearing blue and white.

[eva unit zero 271]

Nah, actually most blue collar, working class hockey fans can appreciate why Lindsay did what he did.

Conversely, your average Joe will never understand signing an RFA offer sheet to play for Carolina over millions and millions of dollars.

Especially when the offer sheet he signed, and was matched by his club, makes him an underpaid player as far as his market value at the time is concerned. Wonder what kind of contract he was being offered by the Wings at the time?

[egroen 384]

Second, fine. Raise it up in 30 years then. If and when there comes a time when people say, "wait a minute, Sergei Fedorov was one of the greatest Wings of all time and did this that and everything else, why isn't his number retired?" and there's very little disagreement, then great - do it. Til then it's the wrong idea. Do it today and there's the very real chance of booing at the ceremony. Then nobody would remember Sergei Fedorov as the smooth-skating scoring machine and all-around excellent hockey player that he was - they'd remember he was the guy who got booed at his own ceremony. And even if there isn't, and you still raise the banner, and people watch it rise and think it's bulls***, it's forever bulls*** because that's how people will remember it. If history is kind to his legacy, retire it then. Not when there are so many people who think it's wrong. Again: If there are enough nonbelievers out there that you have to "make the case", the answer is no.

I am in 100% agreement here!

I first of all call BS on this. What makes you say so?

Check out any "Top 100" ranking out there and get back to me and I will debate this further if you would like (though I do not think it deserves any debate whatsoever). There are still plenty out there who think Kelly is still better than Lidstrom.

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen

[Guest Shoreline]

Such bitter fans... man, you guys would have hated Lindsay with a passion, Kelly and Sawchuk you would despise and you would probably have never forgiven Howe for playing in the WHA.

I can think of a few bad things about Fedorov, but I can also think of thousands of great things he did while in Detroit, as a player and for the community (and still does in the community). Wings fans such as you are about the only hockey fans in the NHL who do not like and greatly respect Fedorov.

I respect Fedorov when he plays on other teams. I do not respect him for the things he did to this team. Doing good things does not cancel out the bad, and as mentioned it would tarnish the other names already up in the rafters to put his up there. So no. Let him go up to the rafters for some other team, even if it would make little sense to.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Fedorov has even said would have signed Fedorov did NOT want more money. This has been explained over and over. He left for LESS money. Fedorov agreed to a five year deal worth $50m, but when he showed up to sign he was presented with a 4yr, $40m deal. That was later reduced to a 4yr/$38m deal Fedorov has said he would have signed for the total value of $38m if it had been for 5 years; the length was the sticking point and the money was not an issue. If Fedorov had signed that $38m deal and it had been for 5 years, then his cap hit would have been $7.6m before the 24% adjustment coming out of the lockout, making his cap hit 5.776 after the lockout. This would be evened out by a slight reduction in the new contracts of Zetterberg and Datsyuk, as well as the Wings never acquiring Robert Lang.

I think history will show the Wings and Holland did the right thing. Considering we've since hoisted another cup and pretty much owned the league since Feds left.

Personally, I think we would be wanting to strangle Holland if we'd been eating Feds colossal salary over the past 5 years. Would you pay him 7.4 or 5. whatever for what he's done the past 3-4 seasons? I don't think so.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Especially when the offer sheet he signed, and was matched by his club, makes him an underpaid player as far as his market value at the time is concerned. Wonder what kind of contract he was being offered by the Wings at the time?

That's not the point. The point is he wanted more and was fully committed to leave Detroit to get it.

Not somebody I want to put in the rafters.

[egroen 384]

I respect Fedorov when he plays on other teams. I do not respect him for the things he did to this team. Doing good things does not cancel out the bad, and as mentioned it would tarnish the other names already up in the rafters to put his up there. So no. Let him go up to the rafters for some other team, even if it would make little sense to.

But the bad cancels out the good? Seriously read up on what Lindsay did as a player... Fedorov is nothing compared to him.

[Guest Shoreline]

But the bad cancels out the good? Seriously read up on what Lindsay did as a player... Fedorov is nothing compared to him.

I wasn't alive to watch Lindsay play, nor how he did business with the league/team, so I don't care to compare Fedorov to Lindsay -- and it would be stupid to anyways. I have, however, seen Fedorov's entire career. Given his antics, it would piss me off to see him have his number raised to the rafters. He's shown little to no loyalty to the Wings, and isn't the type of player to go to the rafters anyways, given the other names up there. I'd hate to see him next to Yzerman or Howe, in particular, and soon to be Lidstrom. Indeed, the bad cancels out the good, when your lasting impression is of a selfish *******.

Edited October 15, 2008 by Shoreline

[HomeNugget 2]

Based on a lot of the poster's criteria here for not inducting Fedorov, all of Abel, Lindsay, Sawchuk and Delvecchio would not be in the rafters today.

You can compare Fedorov with Abel, Lindsay and Sawchuk, but leave Alex Delvecchio out of it. He's on the same level as Howe and Yzerman.

[egroen 384]

I think history will show the Wings and Holland did the right thing. Considering we've since hoisted another cup and pretty much owned the league since Feds left.

Exactly - Lindsay leaving was far worse, especially if you were a Red Wings fan.

Lindsay was making 5 times as much money as your "average blue collar worker" and was not loved by the fans. His actions leading to him being stripped of the captaincy and traded from the team was considered greedy and treacherous at the time.

The overwhelming feeling was that Lindsay should be thankful for what he got (for playing a game), and should show loyalty to the team and management that had given him so much. Public sentiment was overwhelmingly in favor of Adams, the guy who had put together the Wings dynasty.... over "Terrible Ted".

Edited October 15, 2008 by egroen

[lfd250 1]

Funny, Federov made such an impression I didn't even remember he was here in 02. May be it's just me, but when I think Wings, he doesn't even come to mind. He is a good player, but you don't see a team "LEADER" holding out for more money. Yes, he did sit out half a year! I don't know much about the others, however, I do know that if you say Detroit Red Wings.... Howe, Yzerman. You're right he didn't leave for money, he left for fame. AKA not being in Yzermans shadow.