A case for #91 in the rafters?

[lfd250 1]

Well there's always hope if he signs with Montreal they send everyones number to the rafters.

[BlueMonk 102]

Ted Lindsay was a hero to hockey players and deserves to have his name hung from the rafters. I can say that without disparaging Sergei Fedorov in the process.

My uncle had a refrigerator delivered to his home back one summer in the 1950s. The delivery guys? Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe! Comparing the economic situation in the league then with the league now is pointless. Comparing statistics is, too. Goal scoring was much lower in that era.

[Grim 5]

the point is all moot. the decision whether #91 (or any other number) is retired rests solely on Ilitch's discretiion. there really is no rhyme nor reason to the process (nor should there ever be).

That being said, we'll probably see Chelios's number up there one day soon. the guy just keep comin back, working for peanuts.

[sjradio 0]

My take on some of these.

5 Lidstrom - Nick will have his number retired. No doubt about this one.

91 Fedorov - I would have to think twice about it, but I would say yes. Despite the "way he left." He is still one of the top players in Red Wings history, he did help us win three Stanley Cups. I will always remember the game winning goal in game 3 of the 98 finals against Washington. The Wings helped him defect.

24 Chelios - I would say no. When you think of Chelios, you mostly associate him with the Blackhawks, even though he has now been a Red Wing longer than he was a hawk. He was named one of the Blachkawhs all time players a few years ago. I don't percieve him as a Red Wing like I do as a Blackhawk. His glory years were in Chicago and maybe even Montreal.

30 Osgood - No. I can't believe I am saying this, but when you think of the players that have their jersey's retired, Howe, Sawchuk, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Abel, Yzerman. Does Ozzie really compare. As unfair as this sounds, but I can't seem to get the 94 loss to San Jose out of my head when thinking about Ozzie. Yes he has three Cups (2 he won as the starter), but I don't think that he is going to have the jerseys up in the rafters.

16 Konstantinov - No. While his accomplishments on the ice were great, I don't think that he'll get a jersey retired up in the rafters. 16 will always be one of those unofficial retired numbers. I am more comfortable with that one, it almost seems more of an honorable way to say he'll always have that jersey waiting for him if he ever can recover. I think it sounds like an inspirational story. Retiring his jersey puts an ending to the Vladdy story. Leaving it unretired gives hope to Vladdy and other people facing similar situations. I look at it like the Wings are saying to Vladdy, "When you get better, you'll have that jersey ready for you." Yes he was a great defenseman, but we'll never know how good he could have been.

I would use that argument for Fischer as well.

14 Shanahan - I am having a hard time of finding ways to say no, but I can't really think of any. He really was the catalyst for the Wings winning the cup in 1997.

I am sure we could be finding reasons to put Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen in the rafters right now. But it takes more than a stanley cup and a great season to put your jersey up in the rafters. This is a career accomplishment, not one season. If you made an opinion on Zetterberg, before the 2008 season, we probably would have said no. Didn't we all jump on him about disappearing in the playoffs. Now because we won a cup and he won a Conn Smythe do those previous seasons not matter. If playoff success is what matters, than Filppula, Hudler, and Helm are the next to get their jersey's retired.

[Anomalously 0]

Oh, Fedorov is a lock for the HHoF... you will find few who disagree.

Feodorov is better than Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio, without a doubt. So is Red Kelly, who was even better.

The only issue with Fedorov and the HHOF is whether he's a first-ballot, and the consensus is that a lot of special players would have to retire the same season. I think you're exactly right.

[lfd250 1]

this guy hopes so

http://cgi.ebay.com/SERGEI-FEDOROV-CUP-YEA...id=p3286.c0.m14

[toby91_ca 620]

the point is all moot. the decision whether #91 (or any other number) is retired rests solely on Ilitch's discretiion. there really is no rhyme nor reason to the process (nor should there ever be).

There should not be a rhyme or reason?

[Grim 5]

There should not be a rhyme or reason?

yes. are we all gonna cry in our beer if Lidstrom's #5 doesn't get raised less than a year after he retires?? #19 went up on that date cuz Ilitch wanted it up on that date. thats all.

don't think Ilitch has the sole discretion of what goes up there?? hmm... I wonder why #6 didnt make it to the Joe... hmm...

[jenova0 0]

TBH, it wouldn't bother me either way. He was a great player while he was here. Sux, that he left, but it all worked out in the end.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Fedorov lacks something that is needed for retiring a jersey: Longevity.

[Uncle Danny 155]

Fedorov lacks something that is needed for retiring a jersey: Longevity.

Draper only has two years of Red Wings seniority on Fedorov. Lidstrom only has four, both including the current season.

Edited October 16, 2008 by Uncle Danny

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Great numbers and a great player do not equate being bestowed the honor of having your jersey retired.

To me, there has to be something extra special about that player to that franchise that deserves the honor of having their jersey retired.

In the past 25 years, here are the players who I think deserve to have their jerseys retired:

Boston: Bourque & Neely

Calgary: MacDonald

Colorado: Sakic is on its way soon

Dallas: Modano is on its way soon

Detroit: Yzerman (Lidstrom coming soon)

Edmonton: Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey

LA: Gretzky

Montreal: Roy (as much as I hate to say it)

New Jersey: Stevens, Brodeur will definately be up there as well

New York Rangers: Messier

Pittsburgh: Lemieux & Jagr

St. Louis: Hull

Vancouver: Linden

[Nightfall 871]

I am a big fan of Fedorov, but even I can't say he would have his number retired in Detroit. He was an integral part of the Wings championships they won in 97, 98, and 2002. Its possible, but if there is one thing I have learned when it comes to having a jersey retired, about 99% of the fans have to agree on it. Yzerman? No brainer. Lidstrom? No brainer. Fedorov? I approve of it, but there are a lot that don't. So my bet is he won't get his jersey retired in Detroit.

He will get into the HHOF though. Thats good enough for me.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Lidstrom goes up and that's it. It's the highest honor an organization can give to a player. I want it to be special and have no doubt when I look up to the rafters at JLA.

[T.Low 1,011]

Gosh, its been at least four months since this topic last came up. Like I usually say about it:

The only way you are going to see Fedorov's number hanging from the rafters is if you take your old Fedorov jersey out of your dog's bed and hang it in the rafters of your garage.

Problem solved.

[BlakChamber 8]

Lidstrom is an obvious lock.

If Fedorov stayed a Wing, or even comes back and retires as a Wing, he get his number in the rafters.

Osgood probably should, but I don't see it happening.

Everyone else that has been mentioned, Shanny, Draper, Chelios, Maltby, etc; ain't gonna happen.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Why do a lot of people think Shanny should have consideration of having his number retired by the Wings? I LOVED Shanny when he was here, I even named my cat after him, but there is no way he deserves to have his number retired here. He was here for 10 years. Put up 80 points only twice, his most productive years were in St. Louis. Yah he won 3 cups here but other players have won more cups on this Wing roster.

Personally, they way he left was a cop-out in my opinion. He thought the team was going to suck just as every "expert" thought the team was going to do and he left for "greener pastures". Saying, "I'm going to let the younger guys take over" was a cop-out.

Like I said, I love Shanny, but we shouldn't let personal opinions on the type of person you think they are cloud your judgment. Fedorov should have his number retired because he was the best player on the Wings during those cup runs, he wasn't the best leader, but he was the best player on those team. An over the hill Hull, Robitaille and Hasek weren't as good as he was when they were on the team.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I certainly appreciate Fedorov's contributions to the Wings and him playing a major role in helping the Wings win 3 recent Stanley Cups all 3 years. He certainly has the contributions on the ice.

However, him not playing his entire career or just about his entire career with the Wings, as well as the quirky vibe he gave off from time to time that sometimes rubbed people the wrong way just says no to retiring his jersey number. It may not be "right" or "fair" compared to what he did on the ice, but these two things are major reasons why his number won't get retired, at least to me. If his jersey is retired, great and I'll be happy for it to happen and happy to be proven wrong, but I'm not holding my breath expecting it to happen.

Fedorov has moved on from the Wings at least from the business relationship aspect, and vice versa it seems. He was one of my favorite players on the Wings in recent Wings history not with the team anymore, but I've moved on from Fedorov being one of my favorites. I'm not trying to throw him on the curb or anything like that, but you eventually move on after a while.

As for the whole Fedorov leaving bit, I'm over it, was over it a long time ago. I doesn't matter to me what side fans may take if it is Fedorov's side or management's side in the whole trying to re-sign Fedorov drama. Nobody really knows all the details of what went on behind the scenes, the only thing we know is that both parties played a part in Fedorov leaving, and I'm fine leaving it at that and don't really care on figuring out all the details on why Fedorov left and why it results in him or management being the "good" or the "bad" guy. In the end, Fedorov wanted to seek a better opportunity for himself personally, and it involved going somewhere else outside of Detroit. Good for him.

As for the booing of Fedorov at JLA, I understand why it has happened and probably will still go on. Would I take involvement in it? Nope, I don't think it is right, but I wouldn't throw a temper tantrum if it happened as I know many held Fedorov close to them emotionally. I understand the mojo behind it but that's just something I wouldn't want to take part in.

That being said, I still appreciate again how he helped the Wings.

[Barrie 900]

I'm ok with the Wings very high standards for retiring numbers, I'm ok with #6 coming down since Aurie isn't a Hall of Famer, I'm ok with #91 not joining Abel, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Howe, Sawchuk, and Yzerman, and I'm ok with Lidstrom being the only other player to have his number retired from our 1995 to 2008+ Dynasty.

If #91 is added, that opens a debate for #14, #30, #33, etc, and I don't think the Organization wants that. Plus it would start debates for Ullman and Kelly. You have to think Zetterberg and Datsyuk will be up there someday too. If everyone I mentioned is added to the rafters, and Aurie is put back up, then there would be 16 retired numbers in the next 15 years. I don't want the Wings to be like the Canadiens or Leafs when retiring or honoring numbers.

I agree with an earlier comment, if you need to think about it or make an argument, then the number shouldn't be up there. Abel, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Howe, Sawchuk, Yzerman, and Lidstrom are no doubters, everyone else is a debate.

[eva unit zero 271]

Great numbers and a great player do not equate being bestowed the honor of having your jersey retired.

To me, there has to be something extra special about that player to that franchise that deserves the honor of having their jersey retired.

In the past 25 years, here are the players who I think deserve to have their jerseys retired:

Boston: Neely

Calgary: MacDonald

Vancouver: Linden

Including these three players in a very select group seems fairly odd.

Linden is the least odd, as he was the fact of the franchise for a long time, but he was never a truly great player and for much of his time there the Canucks were defined by the presence (or absence) of superstar sniper Pavel Bure. Linden was much like Draper; he was a good second/third line forward who played solid defense and could play multiple forward positions, and was a team leader and fan favorite. But he's not the kind of guy who gets his jersey retired. Linden's presence as team captain and as an offensive leader on the team make his inclusion more realistic, but the Canucks had several players who were just as important to the team as Linden for many years. Markus Naslund had the captain/franchise face/fan favorite thing going, but he also has the superstar winger thing going for him and the same kind of longevity with the team. Which is one more reason Linden should not get his jersey in the rafters; because Naslund certainly won't.

MacDonald is a 500 goal scorer. Yes he scored 66 goals as a Flame in one of his 7.5 seasons there. But that makes up just shy of one third of his entire goal scoring output (215) as a Flame. He only scored 30 two other times, and failed to crack 20 four of his final five seasons as a Flame. Hardly retirement-worthy numbers, unless you mean he should have retired from the game after posting them...which he did. He posted by far his worst career scoring numbers as a Flame. If you were going to name a Flames forward, why not mention Theoren Fleury, Joe Nieuwendyk, Joey Mullen, Jarome Iginla, Mike Vernon, or Al MacInnis? Yes, I realize that MacDonald is the only Flame other than Vernon to receive the honor, but IMHO MacDonald was outperformed in the uniform by all of the above forwards as well as MacInnis and Vernon; he received the honor because he retired while the others were beginning their careers. MacDonald was arguably the greatest Flames forward to that point in their short history, (Kent Nilsson and Hakan Loob could argue against him) but then, one has to argue was he great enough, and was their history great enough, to justify retiring his number with 215 goals and 400 points in 492 games, when the franchise leader at the time, Nilsson, had 229 goals and 562 points in 425 games? Nilsson's 131 points in a season still stands as a franchise record; one has to wonder where his recognition is? He's the only player in Flames history to play 400+ games and maintain a points-per-game average better than 1.10...none of the other star scorers who have donned the Flames jersey could do it.

Neely...this discussion has been had many times. He does not belong in a jersey retirement discussion or the Hall of Fame.

Actual performance is what matters. If a guy got injured, that's a tough break. But getting a severe injury shouldn't allow you pro-rated stats towards actually getting into the Hall of Fame or getting your jersey retired. Those things should require ACTUAL performance, which Neely doesn't have enough of. It's like my Kevin Stevens comparison...Stevens was a better player when healthy than just about everyone else...but he suffered a gruesome and tragic injury that completely ruined him as a player; and he was still one of the better players in the league and scoring a point per game for the next few years. Stevens probably doesn't make the HOF because he doesn't have the actual performance...but as far as what he would have done if he doesn't get injured.....It would have been truly frightening the kind of domination he would have continued to lay on the league.

I would suggest the inclusion of Adam Oates, Al MacInnis, and Kirk McLean as replacements on your list if you feel the need to have players from those teams who 'deserve' retirement within the last 25 years to replace the ones I argued against.

[eva unit zero 271]

I'm ok with the Wings very high standards for retiring numbers, I'm ok with #6 coming down since Aurie isn't a Hall of Famer, I'm ok with #91 not joining Abel, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Howe, Sawchuk, and Yzerman, and I'm ok with Lidstrom being the only other player to have his number retired from our 1995 to 2008+ Dynasty.

If #91 is added, that opens a debate for #14, #30, #33, etc, and I don't think the Organization wants that. Plus it would start debates for Ullman and Kelly. You have to think Zetterberg and Datsyuk will be up there someday too. If everyone I mentioned is added to the rafters, and Aurie is put back up, then there would be 16 retired numbers in the next 15 years. I don't want the Wings to be like the Canadiens or Leafs when retiring or honoring numbers.

Let's address this 'Pandora's Box' argument.

Fedorov vs Osgood. Many believe Fedorov deserves to have his jersey retired. Many believe Osgood deserves the same honor. There are many who would argue against both. It is arguable who is more deserving; however Osgood is the player more likely to end up holding most statistical records for his position with the team

Fedorov vs Shanahan. Fedorov was the better player every year they were on the team together, without exception. Fedorov, in his prime, was one of the top five players in the world. Shanahan, as a Red Wing and in his prime, was one of the top five at his position in a good year. Furthermore, Shanahan came to the Wings as an established player, while Fedorov began his career in Detroit. There is no possible valid argument that Shanahan could be more deserving than Fedorov; therefore a Shanahan retirement would ensure a Fedorov retirement, but a Fedorov retirement would not guarantee anything for Shanahan.

Fedorov vs Draper. Draper has spent most of his time in Detroit as a defensive specialist playing the same or lesser quality defense than Fedorov was playing at the same time. Both have always been lightning-quick skaters, and Fedorov's offensive ability and physical strength while having the same speed and defensive skills really sets him apart from a guy like Draper. Draper has spent most of his time in Detroit as a third or fourth line grinder...Fedorov spent his entire career in Detroit as a first or second line forward while playing both on the power play and the penalty kill due to his amazing two-way abilities. Draper will never even get a sniff of jersey retirement, and everyone but cracked out Draper fans know it.

Other players who were mentioned:

Red Kelly. One of the best defensemen ever, and only played D for the Wings. Probably deserves to hang from the rafters.

Norm Ullman. An unusual situation, Ullman primarily wore two numbers currently not in circulation. He wore 16 and 7. Most of his Detroit career was spent wearing #7, as Ted Lindsay had been shipped out of town. So if a banner were ever hung for Ullman, it would not change the available numbers as it would simply add another #7 banner to the rafters. A deserving player, one might even say that it is a disservice to Ullman that a player who played fewer games and scored at a worse points-per-game rate gets full recognition while Ullman receives no recognition at all. Ullman has scored 30 more points in 13 more games than Lindsay, and scored 295 more in 305 more games played than Sid Abel.

So if a Fedorov retirement gets those players into the rafters...where exactly is the harm? Both players are completely deserving of the honor.

I agree with an earlier comment, if you need to think about it or make an argument, then the number shouldn't be up there. Abel, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Howe, Sawchuk, Yzerman, and Lidstrom are no doubters, everyone else is a debate.

You should always think about it. Gerard Gallant has better stats than Sid Abel in about the same number of games, and Gallant was on the first line longer. Which player deserves the number to be hanging?

Sergei Fedorov is one of the greatest offensive players the Wings have ever had. He did this while playing his prime in the "dead puck era" and performing as one of the league's top defensive players. To argue that retiring his jersey means the Wings have to retire Kris Draper's jersey is like saying that because a cop let someone off for speeding without writing a ticket because his wife was in labor means he has to let off the person who is speeding because they are trying to get away from the scene of a crime. It's a completely different situation, where one is a pretty simple decision where the cop just has to think 'is she really pregnant and in labor?' so to say that one leads to the other is flawed logic.

[Reds4Life 51]

Thing with Osgood is, he was never elite goalie in the NHL, he is above average, but not elite. Osgood does not belong with Sawchuk, Yzerman, Lindsay, Abel, Delvecchio and Howe. Simple as that.

Fedorov is a hall-of-famer, one of the best players to ever play in Detroit. His departure from Detroit is not going to prevent his jersey retirement, just look at Roy in Montreal, time heals everything.

[Doggy 130]

Red Kelly. One of the best defensemen ever, and only played D for the Wings. Probably deserves to hang from the rafters.

Red Kelly actually played pretty much every position. Except goal. Dunno where you heard otherwise.

[Reds4Life 51]

Red Kelly actually played pretty much every position. Except goal. Dunno where you heard otherwise.

Not in Detroit. He played forward in Toronto.

[Doggy 130]

Not in Detroit. He played forward in Toronto.

He played centre for the Leafs but also played other positions in Detroit when needed. He did not ONLY play D. If some pleb in Australia like me knew this, surely you guys did too.