worried about ozzie?

[The Mule 0]

Ozzie has not been brutal, not has he been great. He's been somewhere in the middle.

I love Ozzie, but I would like to see Conklin play a few more games.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

.879 sv% (last in the league) and 3.38 GAA isn't good. It can't be entirely the fault of the team in front of the goalie.

At least that is what I have heard ad nauseum previously, in this very forum.

It's all in your perception, I guess. Same circumstances, different result.

The circumstances here are not the same as they have been in the past. The Wings have never played this poorly for this long - in terms of defense - in probably a decade. And since we know you're hinting at the flack Hasek received, he never played in front of a Detroit defense where Niklas Lidstrom might be confused with Andreas Lilja.

[stormboy 47]

While Oz has been less than spectacular, last night is the first game I recall where a goalie gave up 5 goals yet played incredible. He made great stop after great stop especially when a player got behind our defense.

If you look at the goals it shows how well Ozzie actually played last night.

Goal 1: 5-on-3 Bang-Bang play Ozzie had no shot

Goal 2: Deflected off Lilja's skate and in the back of the net. No shot for Ozzie

Goal 3: Another Bang-Bang play similar to the first goal. Again, No Shot for Ozzie

Goal 4: Blown coverage by the defense. No shot for Ozzie again.

Goal 5: Illegal Goal that shouldn't have counted.

i agree, except for goal four. i would say that it was a "soft" goal; it was definitely a quick play with bad defensive coverage...but those are game-changing saves that elite goalies will make. i guess you can't necessarily blame ozzie for the goal (the d never should have let the puck get in that position) but i think a truly great goalie (which we can probably all agree that ozzie is not, nor has ever been, despite his elevated play in last year's cup run) would have had a shot at that. same probably goes for the 5-on-3s. yeah, not really osgood's fault, but again, your best defenseman on a 5-on-3 is your goalie. you are called upon to make a few spectacular saves to keep your team in the game when all else fails. ozzie did not do that.

that being said, i'm certainly not going to hang him out to dry. there's a lot to improve on, and we're still at the top of the heap. we can't expect ozzie to be spectacular, so we need our defense to be, in my opinion. ozzie is playing right where he should be, or at least where we should expect him to, in my opinion. but even that save percentage would have a much better GAA if we were giving up our typical 15-20 shots a game rather than 30-35.

[b.shanafan14 733]

The Oz defenders keep citing the defense being crappy, but if you want to be a goalie in the NHL you have to be able to steal a few bad calls or no.

The Hawks have had a real shady D for the last few years, and Bulin still kept em' in a lot of games.

Moral of the story is, Oz needs to start playing better or he needs to get benched. Not like we had a problem doing it to Dom last year...

7-1-2 record playing against a turnover prone defense and at least a 5 on 3 every night apparently? No, you're right, he hasn't stolen anything, he's terrible, bench him, better yet, waive him. Lets take the Bulin Wall off Chicago's cap. [/sarcasm]

Osgood hasn't played All-Star worthy, but he has been solid compared to the defense in front of him at times playing like Gretzky, dickin' around behind their own net and then centering for a nice helper (for the opposition).

And there is a huge difference between Dom playing poorly with an incredible defense playing in front of him last season with Ozzy splitting the games and playing great with the same defense and this season Ozzy playing slightly off-solid SOME nights behind a defense that has played awful at best to date and his back-up Conklin not doing any better in front of said defense.

That and as far as I remember, we let Dom play subpar all season as 1A never benching him even when he really earned it, which went on until he let in goals in spans of 33, 11 and 9 seconds apart in consecutive games in the playoffs.

[Gordie Howe hat trick 110]

A win is a win is a win, unless you don't like the way it was won?

What I'm saying is that we should have won in regulation, but mainly he isn't stealing any games as you suggested earlier.

[Opie 308]

What I'm saying is that we should have won in regulation, but mainly he isn't stealing any games as you suggested earlier.

If he isn't stealing the games who is, the team has 3 losses and 7 wins, not the other way around.

Your posts make it seem like you expect them to go undefeated and win every game 5-1 from the preseason until the end of the season.

The D is struggling, Ozzie has made saves and even won a game or two in the shootout, well what in the hell is stealing a game if stoning 2 people in the shoot out for the win isn't?

You said he wasn't stealing games, you said he should be able to steal a few I believe was a direct quote. If he didn't steal any of the wins, what was there for him to steal?

Edited October 30, 2008 by Opie

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It's really not the same circumstances though to what you are alluding to. Ozzie has not been great so far this season - I am by no means denying that. It is, however, very evident that everyone on the Red Wings defense (including Lidstrom) is not playing up to their typical standards. Giving up 30-40 shots per game is not acceptable, regardless of whichever goalie the Red Wings have in net. Dom was never facing the number of shots that the Red Wings defense is giving up so far this season. There really is a big difference.

Regardless, everyone needs to step up on defense. Kronwall and Stuart have not been good at all defensively. Lebda is Lebda. There is room for improvement all the way around (including Ozzie). It's just convenient for people to point fingers at the goalie first when everything isn't going as planned.

Agreed. I wouldn't waste your time though. Reality goes out the window when it comes to Hasek. She's still bitter about all the crap Dom took for his poor start last year and is hanging around to whine about how Ozzy is getting different treatment.

But I agree it's not nearly the same thing. For example last year when the Wings beat Anaheim in the shootout in October, Dom had a save percentage of .867. One minor difference is he faced 15 shots.

For the games Hasek started, the Wings only gave up more than 30 shots once all season, when they gave up 32 to Ottawa and lost 3-2. With Ozzy it was very much the same. There were four regular season games he faced more than 30 shots. This season he's faced 30+ three times in seven games. The Wings have only given up fewer than 20 shots one game so far this season, with 19.

But more than the stats just from watching the games you can see this has not been the same defensive team as last season. Their puck control is not there and there have been a lot of major defensive blunders. Last night was no different. Rafalski got schooled by Getzlaf on what led to the game winning goal in OT.

I'm most certainly not an "Oz defender", but Bulin blew *way* more games for the Hawks against the Wings then he kept them in.

No kidding.

Which is why they brought in Huet a $5 million dollar goaltender to play alongside their $6 million dollar man. If Bulin was keeping them in so many games, I doubt Chicago would have over $11 mill tied up in goaltending right now.

[puckloo39 5,686]

The circumstances here are not the same as they have been in the past. The Wings have never played this poorly for this long - in terms of defense - in probably a decade. And since we know you're hinting at the flack Hasek received, he never played in front of a Detroit defense where Niklas Lidstrom might be confused with Andreas Lilja.

The D has has been off, I agree. However, many here have apparently forgotten all the games riddled with 5-3s, turnovers, and goals kicked in on Dom last season by Cheli and a number of others. It was almost comical, in a way. The Wings did play poorly in front of Hasek on more than one occasion. He also made many spectacular saves and kept them in games they didn't deserve to win. Just like Ozzie has on occasion this season so far.

Hasek won half the regular season games, in spite of playing in some of the worst efforts put forth by the team during the season -- the Anaheim penalty fest, Thanksgiving turkey game, New Years day game are good examples of where Dom was the only one who showed up. Yet somehow, the losses were pinned on him.

If winning is the aim, then Dom did his job last season - he won half the games with identical GAA with Ozzie.

Different season, different players, different perception.

BTW: Harold, yes, I am bitter. Hasek took the blame when it was heaped on him, deserved or not, and never said a word. Ozzie is more fortunate, so far.

Hasek would have been better off seeing more shots, since the low shot total allowed made his stats look worse than they should have. As for me whining, that's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. I am accustomed to your personal attacks by now. I will stand up for Hasek, even if no one else will, fearing your ire. Woo.

Edited October 30, 2008 by puckloo39

[robat 13]

Seriously, are these threads some sort of joke?

[FedorovGurl 2]

You try playing goal with no defense in front of you. Then let us know how that works for you. The D is whats "brutal" in this whole equasion.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Seriously, are these threads some sort of joke?

Yes. A very, very bad joke.

The Wings are in first place in their division and are tied for second most points in the league in spite of playing very poor defensively. You had to know the goalie would be to blame eventually.

[dallas27 7]

And thus the 10 page rant for Hasek begins...

Saying Osgood has played brutal is overkill. Osgood and Conklin have kept the Wings in the games and are very much a big part to as what the Wings record is. Besides Hank and HDH, Osgood and Conklin are the best things going for the Wings right now, despite what their stats say. On several occasions they are making the first AND second save. As to the person who said the goalie has to be the best d-man on the PK, that is true, to an extent. 5 on 4's I totally agree. But it's out the door on 5-3's. In my eyes every NHL team should score every time on a 5-3, they are all simply too good not to.

Osgood was one of three reasons why the Wings were able to get a point out of yesterdays game. The glove save he made from 8 feet out on Perry with seconds to go was insane. If you look up the definition of robbery that save is in there. Good thing Osgood has always had a quick glove, that's for sure.

[robat 13]

Speaking of playing with no defense in front of you...

[b.shanafan14 733]

BTW: Harold, yes, I am bitter. Hasek took the blame when it was heaped on him, deserved or not, and never said a word. Ozzie is more fortunate, so far.

Not to jump into this or take sides or anything, but Dom was a veteran of 42 years old who rarely ever was told he played badly or cost them the game, and I doubt highly he cared enough to come to LGW and see what the fans were thinking.

On the other hand, good ol' "fortunate" Ozzie was never the could-do-no-wrong superstar Dom was and I remember a 20 something kid blaming himself for every loss, deserved or not, and trying so hard to get ready for a game that he would exhaust himself before the puck drop and still play pretty damn good. That same kid was called the "worst goalie to ever win the Stanley Cup".

I know you feel like Dom had to deal with some s***, but Ozzie has been far from without that same s*** for his whole career.

[SoDakWing 8]

you can complain at the defense, sammy, clearly, hudler etc all you want, but .879 in Save Percentage is unacceptable. If Osgood keeps that up we might as well ride conklin for a while.

you should expect atleast over 0.900 from a good goalie.

did you watch the game last night? obviously not. Ozzie was real strong... the goals were PP goals and no way in hell he would have made the saves. Our D falling apart is the big problem. If they can get together and stop taking stupid penalites like last night. His save percentage will go up like your unit after taking 3 viagra.

[Dominator2005 558]

I don't think that Ozzy was brutal but let's be honest he wasn't great either. He can/should be better. Last season Osgood and Hasek were pushing each other to be better, this year Conklin should push Osgood. I think that we NEED a BIG stay at home DEF. Kronwall should be hitting more and harder. We are really missing Chelios - sad but true.

[mmorland 16]

you can complain at the defense, sammy, clearly, hudler etc all you want, but .879 in Save Percentage is unacceptable. If Osgood keeps that up we might as well ride conklin for a while.

you should expect atleast over 0.900 from a good goalie.

His Save % was gonna take an early hit based on the poor defensive play and the lack of shots he faces.

Chill.

[egroen 384]

The real issue this season is penalty trouble, for the Wings especially, but as bad as its been, they are still one of the LEAST penalized teams in the league?!

Yes, but when you factor in the lack of fighting majors the Wings have received, it is easy to see why they have one of the least amounts of penalty minutes in the league.

However, if you take away the 5 min fighting majors, the 10 minute game misconducts, etc... and only count minor penalties, the Wings have the THIRD MOST penalties in the NHL. That tells me you have a team which sucks defensively, and is playing lazy... or is dirty, but I think we all know it is the former and not the latter.

This is the worst I have ever seen the Wings play defensively, outside of when half our defensemen were injured towards the end of last season. Fortunately, the offense has been clicking and our goalies have been decent, or the Wings would be getting blown out most games.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

i agree, except for goal four. i would say that it was a "soft" goal; it was definitely a quick play with bad defensive coverage...but those are game-changing saves that elite goalies will make. i guess you can't necessarily blame ozzie for the goal (the d never should have let the puck get in that position) but i think a truly great goalie (which we can probably all agree that ozzie is not, nor has ever been, despite his elevated play in last year's cup run) would have had a shot at that. same probably goes for the 5-on-3s. yeah, not really osgood's fault, but again, your best defenseman on a 5-on-3 is your goalie. you are called upon to make a few spectacular saves to keep your team in the game when all else fails. ozzie did not do that.

that being said, i'm certainly not going to hang him out to dry. there's a lot to improve on, and we're still at the top of the heap. we can't expect ozzie to be spectacular, so we need our defense to be, in my opinion. ozzie is playing right where he should be, or at least where we should expect him to, in my opinion. but even that save percentage would have a much better GAA if we were giving up our typical 15-20 shots a game rather than 30-35.

The only way Ozzie (or any other goalie for that matter) would've had a shot at that save was if he left his post early, which you're taught not to do. If he cheats and leaves early he gets out further giving the player no high opening, but then as a result he leaves his post and the assist man on that play could've buried the puck. That would've been a massive mistake by Oz. He played it right, it was just a great play.

[ben_usmc 253]

Ozzy has been very poor. EXCEPT this last game against the Ducks he really played great and made every save possible, not an ounce of blame should go on him for the last game, if he continues to play that well then we are in good shape with our goalies.

[dallas27 7]

The only way Ozzie (or any other goalie for that matter) would've had a shot at that save was if he left his post early, which you're taught not to do. If he cheats and leaves early he gets out further giving the player no high opening, but then he leaves his post and the assist man on that play could've buried the puck. That would've been a massive mistake on Oz. He played it right, it was just a great play.

Exactly. Coming from a goalie, but still what I'm about to say is common knowledge not being a goalie, goalie takes the shooter. He can try to cheat, but he's going to either look like an ******* or make the save. 9 times out of 10 it's the former. I would pose a small argument that given the situation of a 5-3 Osgood could have predicted that a pass was going to go across. But again, you don't want to take that risk and cheat but rather rely on the other three guys out there to nullify that pass. I personally feel Conklin is tons faster than Osgood going from side-to-side and even he wouldn't have had that. Salami tucked that into the short side corner.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Not to jump into this or take sides or anything, but Dom was a veteran of 42 years old who rarely ever was told he played badly or cost them the game, and I doubt highly he cared enough to come to LGW and see what the fans were thinking.

On the other hand, good ol' "fortunate" Ozzie was never the could-do-no-wrong superstar Dom was and I remember a 20 something kid blaming himself for every loss, deserved or not, and trying so hard to get ready for a game that he would exhaust himself before the puck drop and still play pretty damn good. That same kid was called the "worst goalie to ever win the Stanley Cup".

I know you feel like Dom had to deal with some s***, but Ozzie has been far from without that same s*** for his whole career.

I mostly agree with you, except for the part about Dom never being told he was to blame from the press and fans. He often accepted the blame and was accountable, when the team did have problems in front of him. This may have been one reason why the players and management were loyal to him, if not the fans. More often than not, Dom was the reason the team won the game during his career, not the other way around.

Ozzie's certainly had more than his share of criticism, also often undeserved. He's a tough cookie, to handle being kicked to the curb and to come back to Detroit, and to retool his game the way he has. All credit goes to Ozzie for doing all of that. Unlike some, I am able to appreciate one player without feeling the need to destroy another, especially when they play on the same team.

I completely agree with you that what is said in this forum matters not at all to the players. It shouldn't to me, either, but I respect the opinions of many posters in this forum, even if it's not mutual. It's difficult to see the double standard in action sometimes.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

osgood hasn't been great, but our losses and one goal wins and going to ot almost every game aren't his fault either. our defense has been uncharacteristically bad. our back checks have been half-hearted to put it delicately, and our give-aways are off the charts. i loved that sammy give-away at the end of regulation last night where he passes the puck directly to a duck in the neutral zone and then just stands there flat footed as the duck skates away with the puck. you can't do that. you have to make smart plays, and if you make a bad play, you better skate your ass off to make up for it.

that said, we're 7-1-2. keep that up and we'll have won 56 games this year. that's at least 114 points (assuming no more losses occur in ot) you can't really complain about that. we definitely have some areas to tighten up, but we'll be fine.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

If we had Luongo, maybe he would've saved a couple more pucks.

Of course, then you'd have to say goodbye to Hossa, and the possibility of re-signing both Franzen and Zetterberg

[Phazon 24]

Seriously, are these threads some sort of joke?

how are they a joke? When freaking raycroft has better save % it is BAD.