How Would You React?

[maltbyrocks18 0]

when darth vadar is dominating with evil, skywalker didn't try to recruit him or join the dark side. he trained with yoda and then beat him.

this is the exact same scenario.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Hatcher, you mean the pylon that played 15 games for the Wings? Whats to remember?

My point was we've had players on the Wings that have a dirty element to their game. I wasn't saying Hatcher was some great player who played on the Wings so we should get Pronger.

Pronger is ten times the player Hatcher is.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You're right. That Norris was probably a fluke. So was the Hart...

Plus if Edmonton won the Cup in '06, he almost certainly would've had a Conn Smythe too. He was a beast in the playoffs that year.

[maltbyrocks18 0]

Hatcher, you mean the pylon that played 15 games for the Wings? Whats to remember?

yeah because of a acl injury that ultimately ended his career. who isn't fast after one of those surgurys??

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Pronger off the wings = A disgustingly dirty player who is little more than a goon

Pronger ON the wings= A disgustingly talented player who plays with a physical edge and has all the tools needed to be a hall of fame dmen.

[Bannedforlife 403]

Plus if Edmonton won the Cup in '06, he almost certainly would've had a Conn Smythe too. He was a beast in the playoffs that year.

Rafalski is like half the defenseman Pronger is. Seriously. He's a midget

[chrisdetroit 189]

Chris Pronger would be a god-sent right now. And yeah I hate him on any other team too, but he'd likely tone down the stupidity on a Red Wings squad. Hes playing better than any of our Dmen right now, including Lidstrom.

Huh? Pronger's +/- is 0 and he has 18 points. Lidstrom's is +8 and he has 18 points and Lidstrom is playing on a team that is 25th in GAA.

What kind of koolaide are you drinking?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Plus if Edmonton won the Cup in '06, he almost certainly would've had a Conn Smythe too. He was a beast in the playoffs that year.

The best playoffs of his life by far. He dominated every asset of the game, I actually liked Pronger, a tiny bit when he played for Edmonton. The team never recovered from losing him.

[eva unit zero 271]

You're right. That Norris was probably a fluke. So was the Hart...

Lidstrom and Jagr should have won those respective trophies that year. This can be established simply by Lidstrom's utter dominance in Norris voting in later years on weaker Wings teams. Typically the Hart is awarded as a 'Most Outstanding Player' trophy, so while a defenseman as dominant as Lidstrom has been compared to his peers recently not even being considered for the Hart not unusual, is would be unusual for a defenseman LESS dominant than him compared to his peers (He barely beat Lidstrom) to win the Hart, as he narrowly edged out Jagr.

Pronger should not have won either trophy, and only did so that year because he is Canadian.

As far as Pronger vs Chelios? The major difference in that comparison...Chelios was hated by Wings fans because he was chippy and great, but he was hated for his greatness FIRST. Pronger is, for one thing, far dirtier than Chelios was. Maybe this has to do with Pronger's elbows being higher, I'm not sure. But Wings fans hate Pronger more for his dirty play than for his skill, while Chelios was hated for his skill more than his dirty play. That's what the big difference is. It's like Sakic. Wings fans hate Sakic a certain amount because he's the face of the biggest recent serious rival. But at the same time, he's the closest thing the league has to a carbon copy of Yzerman, so Wings fans can't really hate Sakic at all.

Think about players on rival teams that you hate. The most hated are always good players who play a dirty, chippy style. Chelios came into the division and was disliked for being good against the Wings before he ever did anything dirty against Detroit. Pronger, OTOH, has been a dirty s*** since day one and didn't get good for a while.

The order in which player hate develops affects how players are thought of.

[Casey 145]

If Proger were a Wing, I would no longer be a fan.

Yes, it's about the logo on the front over the name on the back, but hiring Pronger would be a shift so fundamental in how they play- hiring a pure goon instead of trying to be above that- that I simply couldn't countenance it.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Exactly.

He's easy to hate. The cheapshots, the gap toothed grin... But he's a great defenseman. I'd be pretty excited if the Wings signed him. Let the other team fear him for a change. And like you pointed out, it's not like they haven't had players like him on their roster before. Anyone remember Hatcher?

If Lids decides to retire at the end of his contract in 2010, that also happens to be the same time Pronger becomes a UFA.

Just sayin'...

Wait a minute. We are talking about a guy that has been suspended by the league 6 TIMES!

Comparing that to a guy like Hatcher is ludicrous. Yes Pronger is talented but there is no place for a guy like that on the Wings.

6 TIMES!!

The dickhead shouldn't even be playing in the NHL. Hatcher? Bertuzzi? Avery? This guy is in a league by himself.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Plus if Edmonton won the Cup in '06, he almost certainly would've had a Conn Smythe too. He was a beast in the playoffs that year.

There are no "if's" in Hockey. They didn't and he didn't

[Guest nutz2u]

Lidstrom and Jagr should have won those respective trophies that year. This can be established simply by Lidstrom's utter dominance in Norris voting in later years on weaker Wings teams. Typically the Hart is awarded as a 'Most Outstanding Player' trophy, so while a defenseman as dominant as Lidstrom has been compared to his peers recently not even being considered for the Hart not unusual, is would be unusual for a defenseman LESS dominant than him compared to his peers (He barely beat Lidstrom) to win the Hart, as he narrowly edged out Jagr.

Pronger should not have won either trophy, and only did so that year because he is Canadian.

As far as Pronger vs Chelios? The major difference in that comparison...Chelios was hated by Wings fans because he was chippy and great, but he was hated for his greatness FIRST. Pronger is, for one thing, far dirtier than Chelios was. Maybe this has to do with Pronger's elbows being higher, I'm not sure. But Wings fans hate Pronger more for his dirty play than for his skill, while Chelios was hated for his skill more than his dirty play. That's what the big difference is. It's like Sakic. Wings fans hate Sakic a certain amount because he's the face of the biggest recent serious rival. But at the same time, he's the closest thing the league has to a carbon copy of Yzerman, so Wings fans can't really hate Sakic at all.

Think about players on rival teams that you hate. The most hated are always good players who play a dirty, chippy style. Chelios came into the division and was disliked for being good against the Wings before he ever did anything dirty against Detroit. Pronger, OTOH, has been a dirty s*** since day one and didn't get good for a while.

The order in which player hate develops affects how players are thought of.

Good post. Pronger becoming a Wing would not change my mind about him. He would still be a despicable, cowardly dickwad that I would have zero respect for.

[Bannedforlife 403]

Lidstrom and Jagr should have won those respective trophies that year. This can be established simply by Lidstrom's utter dominance in Norris voting in later years on weaker Wings teams. Typically the Hart is awarded as a 'Most Outstanding Player' trophy, so while a defenseman as dominant as Lidstrom has been compared to his peers recently not even being considered for the Hart not unusual, is would be unusual for a defenseman LESS dominant than him compared to his peers (He barely beat Lidstrom) to win the Hart, as he narrowly edged out Jagr.

Pronger should not have won either trophy, and only did so that year because he is Canadian.

As far as Pronger vs Chelios? The major difference in that comparison...Chelios was hated by Wings fans because he was chippy and great, but he was hated for his greatness FIRST. Pronger is, for one thing, far dirtier than Chelios was. Maybe this has to do with Pronger's elbows being higher, I'm not sure. But Wings fans hate Pronger more for his dirty play than for his skill, while Chelios was hated for his skill more than his dirty play. That's what the big difference is. It's like Sakic. Wings fans hate Sakic a certain amount because he's the face of the biggest recent serious rival. But at the same time, he's the closest thing the league has to a carbon copy of Yzerman, so Wings fans can't really hate Sakic at all.

Think about players on rival teams that you hate. The most hated are always good players who play a dirty, chippy style. Chelios came into the division and was disliked for being good against the Wings before he ever did anything dirty against Detroit. Pronger, OTOH, has been a dirty s*** since day one and didn't get good for a while.

The order in which player hate develops affects how players are thought of.

The comparison I was making is the overall improvement of having Pronger on your team versus having Rafalski. The number of major individual awards a player has earned is an easy way to quantify his ability. Pronger has 2, nearly 3 as harold pointed out, Rafalski has zero. You can make the argument that perhaps Pronger didn't deserve those awards, but the fact still remains that over their careers, Pronger has more Norris and Hart votes than Rafalski does. Its not a mistake.

I really don't put much thought into hating on various players. The Red Wings are in the business of winning Stanley cups. Chris Pronger would be good for business. Easy decision.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

There are no "if's" in Hockey. They didn't and he didn't

Ok. So he'll just have to settle for his Hart and Norris I guess.

Edit: and for what it's worth, much like Pronger, I mostly hated Chelios because he was dirty, not because he was so talented. The Chelios comparison is an appropriate one.

"Chelios won his second Norris Trophy in 1993 after racking up a career-high 282 penalty minutes in 84 games, an average of 3.36 minutes per contest."

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/1776...s-timeline.html

He would've gotten more suspensions had the NHL been cracking down on them early in his career like they are now. (Of note, Cheli has 2,873 PIMs. during the early 90s, he had more than 200 PIMs three years in a row).

Edited December 13, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[stlwing14 0]

Not so much disgusted, as feeling let down. The Red Wings organization has too much class to let trash like that on this team. It's bad enough we already had to have Bertuzzi wear the jersey, why Pronger?

He's only a tough guy when trying to throw cheap hits against smaller players and getting hurt in the process. His leadership is a disaster. He's got an attitude that would make Brett Hull look like a monk. If that's the kind of team we want in some self inflicted desperation moment for toughness and better play a quarter into the season then go ahead.

Maybe Mike Danton could be next when he is available. Or Claude The Turtle?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Edit: and for what it's worth, much like Pronger, I mostly hated Chelios because he was dirty, not because he was so talented. The Chelios comparison is an appropriate one.

Yep. I don't like Pronger all that much, but NO MATTER WHO THE PLAYER, it is about the logo on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back. I probably wouldn't feel much differently about Pronger if he were a Wing, but I'd deal with it given that he is still one of the better defensemen in the game today.

[weGotTheCup89 41]

I would love having a defensive pairing of Lidstrom and Pronger about as much as I would like having Claude Lemieux play on a line with Darren McCarty. Would it be awesome? In a very twisted sort of way, and the world would explode.

[Datzooky 0]

My opinion, Pronger is the kind of dirty player that would try to end a players season/career because he is losing to that team in the Playoffs.

I don't think Chelios ever made any truely dirtbag moves like that, if he did please correct me.

You could argue that only Pronger knows his intentions, but I trust my eyes and my instincts. That hit on Homer a few years ago stuck with me. I've seen lots of teams start to play dirty when they realize they are losing, but Pronger takes that to a whole new level. I really wish the league had much stronger punishment for any dirty plays in the playoffs that result in players missing games. If this was an isolated incident with Pronger I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but it wasn't.

[Spinner 6]

Chris Pronger.

Probably the most hated player in the game, but he is definitely a great defenseman to have on your blue line. I was watching the Sharks - Ducks game last night and he is definitely a top 5 defenseman in the league. He was shutting down great scoring chances easily because of his reach and he almost scored a couple times.

As much as I hate him, I wouldn't mind having him on my team.

Prongers a goon, let's see how well Ericsson (sp?) develops

Edited December 14, 2008 by Spinner

[VM1138 1,921]

My point was we've had players on the Wings that have a dirty element to their game. I wasn't saying Hatcher was some great player who played on the Wings so we should get Pronger.

Pronger is ten times the player Hatcher is.

We've had players that have a dirty element to their game. We don't pick the dirtiest trash in the game's history.

The people in favor of this seem to be thinking that Pronger is the same styule player as a Bertuzzi, Chelios, etc. When in reality he is on an entirely different realm of cheap hockey play. He plays his entire game with intent to injure. These other guys didn't. THey just dished out dirty hits once in a while, or in Bertuzzi's instance a horrible incident that he never repeated.

Do you see the difference now?

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

We've had players that have a dirty element to their game. We don't pick the dirtiest trash in the game's history.

The people in favor of this seem to be thinking that Pronger is the same styule player as a Bertuzzi, Chelios, etc. When in reality he is on an entirely different realm of cheap hockey play. He plays his entire game with intent to injure. These other guys didn't. THey just dished out dirty hits once in a while, or in Bertuzzi's instance a horrible incident that he never repeated.

Do you see the difference now?

Bertuzzi has nothing to do with this conversation. He's a guy that made one terrible decision. Otherwise I wouldn't say he's a dirty player.

However, did you see my earlier post about Chelios? Did you watch him early in his career? The comparison to Pronger is a valid one.

And Pronger only dishes out dirty hits once in a while too. He doesn't play "his entire game with intent to injure." Let's be serious. If he played as dirty as you guys make it sound every single game, even Pronger would be out of the league. Chelios played similarly earlier in his career, but some of it was pre-Bettman era, and in general they weren't cracking down on guys like they are now with suspensions.

I'll repeat the little stat about our beloved Cheli, who only "dishes out dirty hits once in a while." When he won the Norris in 1993, he racked up 282 penalty minutes in 84 games, which is an average of 3.36 minutes per game. Seven times in his career Cheli had 150 PIMS or more. Three of those seasons he had more than 200 PIMS. The best Pronger has ever managed was in 1998 when he racked up 180, otherwise he's never been over 150. I don't know if you guys watched Chelios earlier in his career or not, but the difference between him and Pronger is not as big as you make it. Chelios played with an edge and often played dirty.

And if you think he's never done anything like Pronger. Once you get through the part of the video where they cart Brian Propp of the ice on a stretcher, you'll see a young Chris Chelios come in with a flying elbow a la Pronger.

More on how Chelios is not as different from Pronger as you would like to believe.

Season of Suspensions: Known for rough play throughout his NHL career, Chelios sat out eight games during the 1993-94 season as a result of his on-ice behavior. He earned the first suspension for abusing linesman Bernard DeGrace at 3:19 of the third period during Chicago's Oct. 14, 1993, game vs. Hartford. DeGrace had been restraining Chelios after breaking up Chelios' fight with Brian Propp, when Chelios pushed DeGrace aside so that he could join another fight involving Brian Noonan and Adam Burt. Chelios got two game misconducts, a 10-minute misconduct, a fighting major and an instigating minor from referee Kerry Fraser. The NHL announced an indefinite suspension on Oct. 15, 1993, and held a hearing into the matter on Oct. 18, 1993, when it set the suspension at four games.

Four months later, Chelios was suspended by the NHL a second time, also for four games, and fined $500 by for scratching Dana Murzyn's eye in a fight at the end of the second period during Chicago's Feb. 2, 1994, game at Vancouver.

http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1981/81040.html

Edited December 14, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[ComradeWasabi 109]

If I had been older than 8 years old when Chelios was traded to the Wings, I probably would have been angry.

[Hiei 192]

The day the Red Wings sign Chrissy Pansyass is the day I become a San Jose Sharks fan.

[sureWhyNot 19]

It's tough to say for me. I mean I loath Pronger, it's that gap tooth goof ball and Tootoo who make up my "most hated NHL'ers" list.

That said, if Pronger were to become a Wing I think the transformation would be exactly like it was when Chelios came here (a response earlier in this thread explains it pretty well.) I mean Chelios was absolutely HATED by Wings fans, much more so then Pronger -- I know it may be hard to believe but it's the truth.

So even though I say I would still hate him if he came here, I am pretty sure that he would become a welcomed commodity sooner then later once he began contributing.

But who knows, he certainly is a POS.

But that was certainly the perception, to a greater extent even, Detroit fans had to Chelios. And the feeling was mutual, which can be seen below. I am sure the majority of you have seen it or remember it, but for reference it's a video of Chris Chelios telling Mike North he hates Detroit and he'd never play there.