Sharks attribute success to Shelley's watchful Eye

[Guest E_S_A_D]

You must be referring to the years they won the President's Trophy and not the Stanley Cup, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but every year they won the cup they had a Downey type player playing more than half of the regular season games and a Drake like player in all of the games including playoffs. Players who play the game with their heart on their sleeve like the aforementioned can make a positive impact in the locker room and on the ice....

Terrific point. I don't think some people realize that the President's trophy is the equivalent to getting an extra gatorade in the locker room for NHL players. It means nothing, they want the Cup. Nice point Clears.

[scotzman 29]

Here is an article on topic from a couple months ago.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../810210334/1004

That article pretty much sums it up as to what the Wings think... I find it interesting that Holland basically says that Downey is not good enough to play on the team. That had to make Aaron happy.

Well, let's see some of this team together toughness of which Nick speaks... I haven't seen it.

Even though Holland said they don't have room for a guy like that, they have had guys like that in their line-up every year. Not a goon, a guy who is willing to drop 'em.

[Guest Shoreline]

That's bs and you know it, the Wings have had alot of success without having a classic enforcer on the roster. Whatever a persons specific ideology may be regarding enforcers at the end of the day they just want the Wings to win.

In all 4 recent cups, they had enforcers. Unless Kocur, Pushor, Fischer, Downey, Drake, and Taylor don't ring a bell for you. Then you had pests/scorers who could fight, like Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Konstantinov, Chelios. These people all sent messages so players like Yzerman, Kozlov, Lidstrom, Hull, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Robitaille, Larionov, and so on wouldn't have to. So the insinuation that these people didn't help lead the Wings to their 4 recent cups is a flat out lie.

These people who could drop the gloves and send a message or bring energy in this fashion are simply not present. This is why the Wings look lackadaisical on the ice, and why Oz/Conklin constantly get unanswered snow showers to the face, as well as skill players beat up on during play and after the whistle. I've seen a pure skill Wings team. They lose in the playoffs.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Shoreline

[Guest E_S_A_D]

That article pretty much sums it up as to what the Wings think... I find it interesting that Holland basically says that Downey is not good enough to play on the team. That had to make Aaron happy.

Well, let's see some of this team together toughness of which Nick speaks... I haven't seen it.

Even though Holland said they don't have room for a guy like that, they have had guys like that in their line-up every year. Not a goon, a guy who is willing to drop 'em.

Here you go sir-

The following quotes are regarding the incident that caused Captain Nick Lidstrom to miss 7-10 days last year from a nasty Laperriere hit.

Laperriere said

"I know where Aaron Downey's coming from. I've been on the other side and I respect what he was trying to do. I've been around long enough to know when one of their best players gets hurt, they'll come after you."

Lidstrom's injury was a rallying point, obviously, and the Wings responded with an amazing performance from Chris Chelios (who scored a goal), Andreas Lilja, Brett Lebda, Kyle Quincey, and Derek Meech in particular:

"I thought we started to dig out of this slump we're in (Sunday, a 1-0 loss in Dallas)," said Babcock. "We played bad enough that it took two games to get out of what we were in."

"It looked like it was scripted out of WWE, you know?" said Downey, who later in the first period instigated and won a fight with Laperriere, one of the league's more accomplished agitators. "Hey, I got no problem playing the game good and fair. But when the elbows are up and you hit a five-time Norris (Trophy) winner, arguably one of the best defensemen ever to play the game, it's a joke, in my mind. So the message is simple. The next time anyone runs one of our guys in a way that it shouldn't be done, then a message will be sent."

Lidstrom appreciated Downey's support, it was clear.

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/02/li...e_reexamin.html

Edited December 17, 2008 by E_S_A_D

[Frozen-Man 144]

Okay, I have gathered all the team's fighting majors from around the league. Granted there's no need to have 37 fighting majors as Anaheim does (although what a blast to watch them play); however, we're at 7 and the CURRENT best team in the League is towards the bottom of that list with 17 fighting majors. It's 'cute' that the Red Wings are bucking the trend and all, but they're also becoming hard to watch at times and inneffective.

Rank Team Fight Totals

1 Anaheim Ducks 37

2 Vancouver Canucks 36

3 Philadelphia Flyers 32

4 St. Louis Blues 31

5 Chicago Blackhawks 29

6 Calgary Flames 27

7 New York Rangers 26

8 New Jersey Devils 25

9 Colorado Avalanche 24

10 Edmonton Oilers 24

11 Phoenix Coyotes 24

12 Atlanta Thrashers 23

13 Columbus Blue Jackets 23

14 Nashville Predators 22

15 Dallas Stars 20

16 Los Angeles Kings 20

17 Buffalo Sabres 19

18 New York Islanders 19

19 Boston Bruins 18

20 Tampa Bay Lightning 18

21 Minnesota Wild 17

22 San Jose Sharks 17

23 Toronto Maple Leafs 17

24 Ottawa Senators 16

25 Pittsburgh Penguins 16

26 Montreal Canadiens 15

27 Carolina Hurricanes 14

28 Florida Panthers 10

29 Washington Capitals 10

30 Detroit Red Wings 7

What's your point we were also last last year - you know the year we one the President Trophy and the Stanley Cup, and that is with Downey and Drake.

Rank Team Fight Totals

1 Calgary Flames 70

2 Anaheim Ducks 69

3 Vancouver Canucks 68

4 Philadelphia Flyers 63

5 Columbus Blue Jackets 58

6 Chicago Blackhawks 57

7 St. Louis Blues 53

8 Boston Bruins 52

9 Dallas Stars 52

10 Edmonton Oilers 49

11 Colorado Avalanche 48

12 Pittsburgh Penguins 48

13 New York Rangers 47

14 Minnesota Wild 46

15 New Jersey Devils 46

16 Carolina Hurricanes 44

17 San Jose Sharks 42

18 Phoenix Coyotes 40

19 Florida Panthers 38

20 Tampa Bay Lightning 38

21 Nashville Predators 37

22 Ottawa Senators 33

23 Washington Capitals 33

24 Montreal Canadiens 32

25 Atlanta Thrashers 30

26 New York Islanders 29

27 Buffalo Sabres 26

28 Toronto Maple Leafs 25

29 Los Angeles Kings 22

30 Detroit Red Wings 21

[Frozen-Man 144]

I respect your unbiased opinion. I agree.

Funny, you only respect and consider unbiased opinions that you already agree with.

[ashenhigh 9]

What's the risk? Losing an extremely valuable asset to the team? Kopecky is a joke. 17 points in a 133 games now I think it's time to stop pretending he's going to develop into anything this team is lacking.

Yeah, I def agree with you on this. Kopecky si awful man. Watch him accept a pass and attempt to stick handle. He can hardly skate with the puck. I was a better stick handler at 12 years old than he is. He brings nothing to the table, just taking a roster spot over someone who would play a MUCH better role on our team.

I wonder if the wings management ever surf red wings forums and see what the fans are saying.

[sureWhyNot 19]

That's bs and you know it, the Wings have had alot of success without having a classic enforcer on the roster. Whatever a persons specific ideology may be regarding enforcers at the end of the day they just want the Wings to win.

I would like to see Downey up for the Sharks game, they should have plenty of energy and emotion going into that game but Downey can provide some if necessary. I'm 100% sure some players would feel more comfortable with him in the lineup, it violates basic human setup to think otherwise.

The real problem is how we get cap space....

Please, I beg you -- Point out the last year we had great success (regular season AND playoffs) without an eforecer in the lineup for an extended period of time in either the regular season or the playoffs.

PLEASE fill me in b/c last time I checked, there isn't one.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

What's your point we were also last last year - you know the year we one the President Trophy and the Stanley Cup, and that is with Downey and Drake.

You just indirectly made the point most of us are trying to sell, the fact that we don't have two players like you mentioned playing at all this year and these types DO have a positive impact over the course of a season.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Five pages on this? Much ado about nothing. The article in question doesn't provide any statistics or even quotes, and is clearly just some guy's opinion. I'm sure if you did talk to the team about they'd say all kinds of nice things about Shelley and this that or the other, but let's be real here. There isn't any correlation between fighting and winning. It has its place in the game, but it's without a doubt the smallest and easily omitted cog in a successful hockey club.

So as not to be misunderstood, I wouldn't even be against bringing Downey back into the line up... Change for change's sake is good, and even if fighting is arguably the least important aspect of team's game, it still has its significance and importance and there are times when it shouldn't be overlooked. While much more is amiss with the Wings than a lack of enforcer, there's no harm that can come of inserting one onto the fourth line for the time being.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Five pages on this? Much ado about nothing.

You just posted, plus my reply, we're inching towards 6 pages. See just perpetuating the even pages.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Please, I beg you -- Point out the last year we had great success (regular season AND playoffs) without an eforecer in the lineup for an extended period of time in either the regular season or the playoffs.

PLEASE fill me in b/c last time I checked, there isn't one.

I think we won something like 16 games in the playoffs if I recall correctly without a fight. I guess we're still able to win without fight. A magical concept, I know.

From the article:

"Which forward do you take out of our lineup to put in Aaron Downey?" Holland said. "Then you've got a guy who plays three or four minutes and you're down to a three-line team.

"Our fourth lines have always been able to play. That started under Scotty Bowman. He liked the ability to roll four lines."

Enforcers become basically non-factors by playoff time, and often have to be replaced in the lineup.

That happened to Georges Laraque when he was with Pittsburgh last season. He was benched during the Stanley Cup Finals because he couldn't keep up with Detroit's speed and skill.

How can you not understand that? The problem with Downey is that he is only good at fighting, nothing else. He doesn't play in the third period. He doesn't play when it's a tight game. I'd rather have a player that can do that than just fight.

"Would I like a guy who can skate and shoot and score 20 goals and be physical and get into fights?" Holland asked. "Yeah, I'd love one of those guys.

...I don't know where you find those guys....

That's the whole thing. There is no such thing as the "anti-enforcer" crowd. It's not pro-enforcer v anti-enforcer, it's pro-one dimensional player v anti-one dimensional player. Downey is a one dimensional player. He doesn't fit. End. of. story.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Guys, you are preaching to the choir. People dont seem to understand that we arent talking about the playoffs. An enforcer and tough players form the attitude of a team. They arent talented enough to coast around when there tired, they have to keep going hard all game to get playing time. Other players build off of that, and it pumps them up to give more on there next shift. It's what happens, I hate to use a bad cliche, but you have to expeirence some form of hockey to understand. In the playoffs, yeah the enforcer doesnt play. But if you've ever heard Don in the playoffs, he shows clips of the practises, and a handful of guys have black jerseys on. "The Black Aces" he calls them, there such an important part of the team, but no one sees that. The players on the ice want to win and want to give there all for there buddies who watched there backs all season. It helped Anaheim, Parros didnt play in the finals, but Getzlaf, Perry, etc wanted to win so they could celebrate, I remember a CBC interview with Perry afterwards where he mentioned Parros a ton of times. Last year? The guys all clapped and cheered for Downey when he raised the cup over his head. If you honestly think they arent important, and that the players dont care, I dont know what to tell you.

"Guys don't take that many liberties on star players anyway." Quote from Barnaby in that Detnews article, which made me sick listening to. If what we've watched so far this year in terms of toughness is really the Wings standing up for one another, and standing together, wow. As far as the quote, it isnt true. You can bet there are certain players on every team that'll come after the star to get some sort of advantage, it's always been like that, and always will be. People say the way of the enforcer is dying, well keep on talking out of your ass, because it's not true. The last 3 years have seen many enforcers playing many games, a ton of fights, a ton of incidents that have had retribution taken for. It'll never die, fighting is a part of the game and the day it isnt, the NHL is in trouble, because they'll lose even more fans, and injuries to players will be up a ton. People have already said this in the thread, it's a deterant, without it, cheapshots and runs being taken will happen more often, and the players will get hurt. And with that I'm out of this thread before it gets ugly.

[Frozen-Man 144]

You just indirectly made the point most of us are trying to sell, the fact that we don't have two players like you mentioned playing at all this year and these types DO have a positive impact over the course of a season.

No I was not indirectly making your point, I was directly refuting the point ESAD made. He had just posted that it was pathetic that we were last in the league in fights this year. My point was that even with Drake and Downey we were last in the league in fights last year. Never once have I claimed that either guy was not important last year or anything similar. My point is even with those guys our team is not going to fight much and we didn't have to last year to win the Presidents or the Stanley Cup.

[Johnny Law 15]

You must be referring to the years they won the President's Trophy and not the Stanley Cup, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but every year they won the cup they had a Downey type player playing more than half of the regular season games and a Drake like player in all of the games including playoffs. Players who play the game with their heart on their sleeve like the aforementioned can make a positive impact in the locker room and on the ice....

All I meant is that they can win games, whoever I quoted posted that some Wings fan just don't get the enforcer role. What I was trying to explain is why people believe that you don't need them. If SureWhyNot wasn't so upitty you would have seen the second half of my post where I said Downey should be in the lineup.

People see good results without an enforcer in the lineup and sometimes think if we just put three more scorers on the 4th line we would win by 10 goals instead of five. I wasn't espousing my personal beliefs rather how people justify a skill only lineup.

As a I wrote later on in my post I would like Downey or a similar type player in the line up regularly and I believe if they had cap room Babcock would have done it already.

The problem is they don't so to bring him up you have to waive or trade someone, the only player who I could see making it through waivers is Kopy. I don't think Holland is comfortable with taking that level of risk for Downey. If Leino was tearing up the AHL and made it clear he would bounce back to Finland if he didn't get the call up maybe, but not for Downey.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Johnny Law

[esteef 2,679]

If fighting is SO useless, and doesn't "correlate to winning", why does every f***in' team have at least one fighter? The whole league must be stupid then, right? I mean wasting a roster spot that a "scorer" could occupy.

I don't get it? All this time I thought they knew what they were doing? Silly me...

esteef

[jvxp 0]

If Mac ever gets healthy again this year I say send him down and give Downey a try at it, he did well last year.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I think we won something like 16 games in the playoffs if I recall correctly without a fight. I guess we're still able to win without fight. A magical concept, I know.

From the article:

How can you not understand that? The problem with Downey is that he is only good at fighting, nothing else. He doesn't play in the third period. He doesn't play when it's a tight game. I'd rather have a player that can do that than just fight.

That's the whole thing. There is no such thing as the "anti-enforcer" crowd. It's not pro-enforcer v anti-enforcer, it's pro-one dimensional player v anti-one dimensional player. Downey is a one dimensional player. He doesn't fit. End. of. story.

Name me one thing Kopecky is good at?

At least Downey is good at something, as you just mentioned.

Edited December 17, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[Mors 201]

Name me one thing Kopecky is good at?

QFT.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Five pages on this? Much ado about nothing. The article in question doesn't provide any statistics or even quotes, and is clearly just some guy's opinion. I'm sure if you did talk to the team about they'd say all kinds of nice things about Shelley and this that or the other, but let's be real here. There isn't any correlation between fighting and winning. It has its place in the game, but it's without a doubt the smallest and easily omitted cog in a successful hockey club.

So as not to be misunderstood, I wouldn't even be against bringing Downey back into the line up... Change for change's sake is good, and even if fighting is arguably the least important aspect of team's game, it still has its significance and importance and there are times when it shouldn't be overlooked. While much more is amiss with the Wings than a lack of enforcer, there's no harm that can come of inserting one onto the fourth line for the time being.

Exactly, I posted this a few pages but as misleading as the thread header is its worth it again.

Pretty misleading header. I read the article - the Sharks do not "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye". In fact, no one from the Sharks is even quoted or attributed to saying anything about the subject. The only person who did "attribute success to Shelley's watchful eye" is Archie Roboostoff some random guy who joined two days ago joined a site where any fan can contribute an article. This is not from ESPN that is a crock. That's right check out the site it is open source and anybody can contribute an article just like this guy did. I'm thinking of writing an article on how no TV timeouts after an icing call is why the Sharks are doing so well this year and then starting a thread here citing the article and stating that the Sharks claimed that no TV timeouts after icing calls are the reason for their success. AGAIN, THE SHARKS ARE NOT MAKING THIS CLAIM SOME SHARKS FAN WHO IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH THE SHARKS OR EVEN A PROFESSION WRITER WHO MIGHT HAVE ACCESS TO THE SHARKS MANAGEMENT OR PLAYERS JOINED AN OPEN SOURCE SITE TWO DAYS AGO AND WROTE HIS OPINION ON THE SUBJECT BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT THE SHARKS OPINION.

To cite this as how the Sharks think about their season is silly. If this guy wants to have that opinion or any poster here wants to have that opinion that is fine BUT THERE IS NO INDICATION THAT IT IS THE SHARKS OPINION.

[Frozen-Man 144]

"Our fourth lines have always been able to play. That started under Scotty Bowman. He liked the ability to roll four lines."

Yeah but what does that Scotty guy know - I trust ESAD much more . . . I mean he posts on LGW and said people who don't agree with him don't know anything about hockey, and only started watching in the last few years. . . It must be true . . . I mean what has this Scotty guy ever done?

[esteef 2,679]

Yeah but what does that Scotty guy know - I trust ESAD much more . . . I mean he posts on LGW and said people who don't agree with him don't know anything about hockey, and only started watching in the last few years. . . It must be true . . . I mean what has this Scotty guy ever done?

Won Cups with guys like McCarty and LaPointe on his "fourth line", and Shanahan on his 1st/2nd. Point?

esteef

[uk_redwing 495]

Name me one thing Kopecky is good at?

At least Downey is good at something, as you just mentioned.

QFT

I change my mind. This is the greatest post ever.

And no Downey isnt just good at fightings. Hes good at creating energy, both on the ice and in the locker rooms, hitting and and letting our skilled guys do their stuff without having to think about getting run at.

[mjlegend 155]

Yeah but what does that Scotty guy know - I trust ESAD much more . . . I mean he posts on LGW and said people who don't agree with him don't know anything about hockey, and only started watching in the last few years. . . It must be true . . . I mean what has this Scotty guy ever done?

Even Scotty's tough guys could play the game. Doug Risebrough scored 60 points to go with a team-leading 132 PIMS on the 1977 Habs, who happened to win 60 games. They pretty much disproved the Flyers' theory of beating them in the alley to beat them on the ice. In 1992, the Cup-winning Penguins had Kevin Stevens who had a team-leading 250 pims, and a team second 123 points. Fighters Jay Caufield and Grant Jennings were getting part-time to other, more valuable players, by the time the Cup was given out. Universally Scotty's best teams had four solid lines led by a superstar first line and a dynamite power play. I would rather have those things than a couple of thugs.

FWIW, I think Kopecky is useless and likely could be replaced by a bigger presence who can hit. I think/ hope Abdelkader's a perfect fit in that role, because he does have some other on-ice usefulness.

[mjlegend 155]

Won Cups with guys like McCarty and LaPointe on his "fourth line", and Shanahan on his 1st/2nd. Point?

esteef

You're right. Shanahan was only good for a couple of shifts a game because he had hands of stone and Lapointe was given $20 million by the Bruins to be a policeman.

How didn't I see it this way before?