Franzen or Hossa?

[Datsyerberger 279]

Fact is, I'm glad we're having this argument & not a "WHO THE HELL IS GOOD ENOUGH TO BE OUR CAPTAIN!" argument like Vancouver.

OOOOOOOOOOO, I went there.

Or maybe this argument and not an "aaaaarrgh.. who the hell is there thats good and would want to play here!" like Edmonton...

Oh snap.

[steveyzerman 0]

"Best captain ever" is debatable but i'll give in just to end that argument. The legend of Steve Yzerman is being a clutch player, even while injured. He didn't consistently lead the team in scoring because unlike today, in the post cap world, we could pay Yzerman eight million to be a shutdown centerman. We had Shanahan, Kozlov, Fedorov, Larionov and Hull. Yzerman didn't NEED to score because that wasn't his role.

On the other hand, Datsyuk and Zetterberg's role is just like Yzerman's (Shut down center) but they're also expected to be point per game players.

Which they are. & I think Hank is a better shut down center overall. I understand Pavel won the Selke which is fine. But, like I said in my first post, aside from the takeaways, I'd give the edge to Hank defensively. & I'm telling you that the captain doesn't NEED to put up points because that's not a captain's role.

& Yzerman is the best captain ever.

[Zune 0]

Another thing...

Wait.. you mean that Lidstrom guy being there had nothing to do with it? A shame he wasn't made an alternate captain underneath him..

Oh, wait.

We're discussing "Future captains" the concept of anyone but Lidstrom being captain is laughable.

The discussion is Datsyuk vs Zetterberg and what makes a good captain. So far, the only thing in Zetterberg's favor is...

1. His beard

2. His chick

3. And the unknown intangibles, that don't include "Leading by example", playing hurt or clutch scoring.

So I guess he rescues baby kittens from trees, its really the only answer.

[Zune 0]

Which they are. & I think Hank is a better shut down center overall. I understand Pavel won the Selke which is fine. But, like I said in my first post, aside from the takeaways, I'd give the edge to Hank defensively. & I'm telling you that the captain doesn't NEED to put up points because that's not a captain's role.

& Yzerman is the best captain ever.

The captains role is to lead but if you're debunking the points argument than why is Lidstrom fit to be captain? He doesn't fight, hes not really vocal and honestly hes no Steve Yzerman.

Comparing Yzerman vs Datsyuk vs Zetterberg is flawed. Its Lidstrom vs Datsyuk vs Zetterberg and when I see that, I see three of the same kind of players. One just happens to score a little more frequently.

Your opinion about Zetterberg being better defensively is fine but the sports writers decided otherwise.

[lets go pavel 2]

The cap is DECRESING, its a fact not fiction. Its going to decrease to $56 million and than moreso after that. Any argument about inflation or different cap totals is ridiculos. Relatively, the cap will be 10% higher at best between the season Datsyuk's deal took effect and when Zetterberg's will.

And Hossa turned down $100 million to sign with this team. Hes leading the team in goals. Even if he decides he wants to cash in there are other players out there who are becoming free agents and restricted free agents that will take less than Pavel and will fit just as well as Zetterberg.

You're seriously underestimating the Zetterberg hype and upper hand he holds in the negotiating process. He scored 90 points, got nominated for a Selke and won the Conn Smyth. Anything short of an MVP, he could be the highest paid player in the league. Which is fine, theres plenty of teams out there willing to pay the price but my point is that hes not better than Datsyuk, a guy who will make considerably less, in a comparable cap setting.

Personally, I think Z is more likely than Hossa to come here for the lower price, but I agree that as free agents someone would offer them both significantly more than Datsyuk. The hope, of course, is that one of them wants to play here for a long time and is willing to sacrifice a million or three to make that happen ... again, I think Z is the more likely candidate to do that, but there's no sense in arguing about that since it's pure speculation. It's possible we could lose them both. So ... just out of curiosity, who are the other players you would replace Z with?

[Datsyerberger 279]

1. His beard

2. His chick

3. And the unknown intangibles, that don't include "Leading by example", playing hurt or clutch scoring.

Yea, because god knows that leading the playoffs in scoring or pulling off PK defense so good that it makes highlight reels in an offensive-centered NHL isn't leading by example.

(And it's well proven that #1 is important to team success. Just look what happened with Crosby in the last SCF..)

[Zune 0]

Personally, I think Z is more likely than Hossa to come here for the lower price, but I agree that as free agents someone would offer them both significantly more than Datsyuk. The hope, of course, is that one of them wants to play here for a long time and is willing to sacrifice a million or three to make that happen ... again, I think Z is the more likely candidate to do that, but there's no sense in arguing about that since it's pure speculation. It's possible we could lose them both. So ... just out of curiosity, who are the other players you would replace Z with?

Ok, lets just say both Z and Hossa leave for greener pastures.

Homer-Dats-Hudler

Franzen-Flip-Leino

Cleary-Helm-Samuelsson

Maltby-Draper-Kopecky

Lidstrom-Rafalski

Stuart-Kronwall

Lilja-Lebda/Meech

Conklin

Osgood

Howard would be signed to an offersheet, id take the picks.

Thats just assuming no one is signed to replace either player. The cap savings would be around $9 million.

If I were Wings management I would seriously think of poaching various restricted free agents from teams close to the cap. That is of course after signing Hudler.

I would also seriously consider Bouwmeester, even if Lidstrom doesn't retire. That than opens up the possibility of trading Rafalski. Kari Lehtonen will also be a free agent and both Kessel and Krecji will be RFA's who will get much bigger deals. The Bruins can't afford Begeron, Kessel and Krecji together.

Theres various ways to spend the money more productively. Or just trade Flip, keep Zetterberg and Frazen

[Yzerman191 37]

I don't have the specifics on Datsyuk and Zetterberg playing together (due to a foggy memory), but I still feel you're drawing a hasty conclusion. Datsyuk has played the majority of the season alongside Hossa, who is unarguably better than Franzen (who Z spent most of his time with thus far). Also, Datsyuk has Holmstrom who is certainly one of the best in the league at his job.

Regarding the captaincy, I don't see why Datsyuk shouldn't be considered for captain rather than Hank. Datsyuk is underpaid (for the league's standards), he's offensively similar, and arguably defensively better (check out the takeaways from last year). He also proved he can perform in the playoffs as well as anyone. Also, by all reports, Dats is a great guy to have around in the locker room. The only thing I really question is his communication skills. I can hardly decipher what the guy is trying to say during a minute long post game interview! But for the record, this is no knock on Zetterberg, who is an obvious offensive presence, defensive presence, and a great guy to have in the locker room as well. I think contract negotiations will actually help to determine which of the two is a better fit for the captaincy; if Zetterberg takes a hometown discount it will probably help his case.

I think it's silly to expect Zetterberg to take less than Datsyuk's salary, but sillier to offer him more than Lidstrom. I feel like if Z wants to stay true to his claim that he wants to finish his career in Detroit, he's going to have to take a discount. I think a front-loaded, 50 million dollar, 7 year contract is probably realistic. It's a little bit over 7M a season, but you can't expect him to take much less given the contracts GMs have been shelling out recently and his value on the open market.

[chrisdetroit 189]

You're deliberately taking things out of context because you can't actually defend your points. Lidstrom is overrated because we've never seen this team play without him for a long period of time, EXCEPT 06-07 when every defenseman was injured and Lilja was our #1 guy. That was used as the "Doom and gloom" aspect of losing Lidstrom.

Honestly, I don't think this team will miss a beat when Lidstrom retires. This isn't 2002, his role on the PP is much different, he takes wrist shots for Homer to tip, as opposed to standing on the right point and ripping them glove side.

These same arguments happened at the thought of losing Yzerman before Datsyuk and Zetterberg came around. Guess what? The team kept on moving and perform at a higher level than even the 2002 team. You can't throw your entire bankroll at the feet of a 35 + year old player, even Nick Lidstrom.

The entire concept of "Loyalty" and holding onto players past their worth is what ruins prospects and leads to having tons of RFA because they spend four years in the minors waiting for a spot that a veteran is keeping warm.

The payroll bar should be Datsyuk, until he is outperformed, no one should get paid higher.

[/quote

Wait a minute. Lids is overrated? Why the hell did they give him 6 Norris Trophy's then?

He must have fooled alot of people.

You aren't serious are you?

[Guest Shoreline]

Wait a minute. Lids is overrated? Why the hell did they give him 6 Norris Trophy's then?

He must have fooled alot of people.

You aren't serious are you?

He's probably basing it on Lids much higher vulnerability to bad mistakes this season. Can't count the times I've seen fast/powerful skill players blow right by him. He's certainly not looking this season like the Lids who won 6 Norris trophies, and likely won't be going that route this year unless he has an absolutely stunning second half until the playoffs.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Franzen over Hossa by a long shot based on value and long term

[steveyzerman 0]

Ok, lets just say both Z and Hossa leave for greener pastures.

Homer-Dats-Hudler

Franzen-Flip-Leino

Cleary-Helm-Samuelsson

Maltby-Draper-Kopecky

Lidstrom-Rafalski

Stuart-Kronwall

Lilja-Lebda/Meech

Conklin

Osgood

Howard would be signed to an offersheet, id take the picks.

Thats just assuming no one is signed to replace either player. The cap savings would be around $9 million.

If I were Wings management I would seriously think of poaching various restricted free agents from teams close to the cap. That is of course after signing Hudler.

I would also seriously consider Bouwmeester, even if Lidstrom doesn't retire. That than opens up the possibility of trading Rafalski. Kari Lehtonen will also be a free agent and both Kessel and Krecji will be RFA's who will get much bigger deals. The Bruins can't afford Begeron, Kessel and Krecji together.

Theres various ways to spend the money more productively. Or just trade Flip, keep Zetterberg and Frazen

I've come to the conclusion that you're just out of your mind.

Bottom line. They're both amazing players. I want to keep them both. I wouldn't have it any other way. If one of them is the captain & not the other, that's fine. I'd prefer Z because of the beard. But I just enjoy having them both on the team. The logo on front of the jersey is a hell of a lot more important than the letter.

See what I did there?

[Zune 0]

He's probably basing it on Lids much higher vulnerability to bad mistakes this season. Can't count the times I've seen fast/powerful skill players blow right by him. He's certainly not looking this season like the Lids who won 6 Norris trophies, and likely won't be going that route this year unless he has an absolutely stunning second half until the playoffs.

Not at all really, although I do agree that Lidstrom is declining. And when your game is 100% positionally based, you can't get slower or you'll get caught.

My argument isn't about Norris trophies or whether or not hes the best defenseman in the league, its about the percieved importance of him to this team. Does he play a key role? Yes. Will this team fail, or even misstep the day he retires? Doubtful

I would argue that both Zetterberg and Datsyuk are more important to this team than Lidstrom. Lids does rack up the assists but he hardly scores like Mike Green. We can find a suitable replacement to play the point on the power play(Not Rafalski) that can take wrist shots and slappers knee high so Homer can tip them.

Bouwmeester would be a perfect replacement.

[going_top_shelf 6]

I'd take the Mule. Hossa is a great player but honestly I think Franzen works better with the team. I think Hossa sort of butted in on the team chemistry, don't get me wrong though, I love the guy. Franzen's my pick though. Franzen, final answer.

[steveyzerman 0]

I'd take the Mule. Hossa is a great player but honestly I think Franzen works better with the team. I think Hossa sort of butted in on the team chemistry, don't get me wrong though, I love the guy. Franzen's my pick though. Franzen, final answer.

Agreed. I'd love to keep all three. But when this signing happened I was under the impression that it was a one year thing. I was already expecting Hossa to go after. I'd hate to lose Mule.

[russianswede919293 95]

I only skimmed it but this thread is lala land...

#1. Ericsson needs to be up next *edited* year he is out of options after this season meaning Lebda or Meech is gone unless Meech makes a permanent move to forward, not out of the realm of possibility.

#2. Franzen for $3.5 million...only in dreams...

#3. Hudler WILL get a ridiculous offer sheet unless he decides he doesn't want to leave, and the Wings will be FORCED to let him go... (I hope I am wrong)

#4. Sammy will not be a Red Wing next season, it doesn't work financially.

#5. Lidstrom is over-rated?!?!?!? ummm.....No...

#6. Val Filppula is going NOWHERE...yes goals are down but assists are WAY up...if you look at his point total so far and multiply it all by 2 that is 72 games, 32 points, 4 points less in 6 less games then last year...that is also taking into account he sees no powerplay time where last year he had 8 Power play points...despite what it may seem, he is having an equally productive year as last season so far, just with more assists then goals...also he is only 24 years old, put him on the PP again next year and you see the $3million statistics...

It comes down to this...Hossa and Z means another year like this year, where the injured goalie is the back-up because you cannot afford to call somebody else up...

Due to that it is Franzen and Z...

Edited January 1, 2009 by russianswede919293

[norrisnick 1]

Not at all really, although I do agree that Lidstrom is declining. And when your game is 100% positionally based, you can't get slower or you'll get caught.

My argument isn't about Norris trophies or whether or not hes the best defenseman in the league, its about the percieved importance of him to this team. Does he play a key role? Yes. Will this team fail, or even misstep the day he retires? Doubtful

I would argue that both Zetterberg and Datsyuk are more important to this team than Lidstrom. Lids does rack up the assists but he hardly scores like Mike Green. We can find a suitable replacement to play the point on the power play(Not Rafalski) that can take wrist shots and slappers knee high so Homer can tip them.

Bouwmeester would be a perfect replacement.

Points/goal scoring is not the only measure of importance for a player.

The matinee game at the WJC was a beauty, eh?

[Datsyerberger 279]

I only skimmed it but this thread is lala land...

#1. Ericsson needs to be up next *edited* year he is out of options after this season meaning Lebda or Meech is gone unless Meech makes a permanent move to forward, not out of the realm of possibility.

#2. Franzen for $3.5 million...only in dreams...

#3. Hudler WILL get a ridiculous offer sheet unless he decides he doesn't want to leave, and the Wings will be FORCED to let him go... (I hope I am wrong)

#4. Sammy will not be a Red Wing next season, it doesn't work financially.

#5. Lidstrom is over-rated?!?!?!? ummm.....No...

#6. Val Filppula is going NOWHERE...yes goals are down but assists are WAY up...if you look at his point total so far and multiply it all by 2 that is 72 games, 32 points, 4 points less in 6 less games then last year...that is also taking into account he sees no powerplay time where last year he had 8 Power play points...despite what it may seem, he is having an equally productive year as last season so far, just with more assists then goals...also he is only 24 years old, put him on the PP again next year and you see the $3million statistics...

It comes down to this...Hossa and Z means another year like this year, where the injured goalie is the back-up because you cannot afford to call somebody else up...

Due to that it is Franzen and Z...

Due to skimming, you must have missed noticing that even without Sammy, with only 22 on the roster and with Z only making 7 mil, and Franzen and Hudler only getting 3 mil each, Flip must go or we'll be almost 2 mil over the cap. Or, we just don't take Hudler, in which case we keep Flip and get a couple of cheap players or bring up prospects.

[weGotTheCup89 41]

Franzen over Hossa by a long shot based on value and long term

How do you figure one has more long term value than the other? Franzen was born 12/23/79 and Hossa was born 1/12/79. They're only 11 months apart in age, so I don't see that could be a reason why Franzen would be more valuable down the road than Hossa.. please explain?

[VM1138 1,921]

Here's what I think, and I think Hossa has been an amazing addition: We can always get the new hot player each season. If push comes to shove, I think we have to keep Franzen and Hudler. They're developing nicely, and I'd rather have two solid second-to-first liners than one first-liner, since we already have Dats and Z.

Now, I really hope we can keep all of them....somehow, and I'd be happy either way, but unless we can lock Z and Hossa up for a long ass time, talking more than 3 years, there's no reason to dump our two greatest depth players.

But then part of me thinks: Damn, if we had Dats, Z, and Hoss for 3, 4+ years, that'd be an amazing tandem, and we can always find extra players to fit our remaining cap space.

But I'd feel really bad about getting rid of Franzen and Hudler when Flip and Kopecky and Lebda are wasting roster spots.

[Reilly 24]

How do you figure one has more long term value than the other?

Does Hossa stand in front of the net? Holmstrom isn't going to be around forever.

Franzen will cost about half as much as Hossa. This question is a no-brainer.

[eva unit zero 271]

After looking at it, I expect the Wings to lose Hossa, Chelios, Conklin,and possibly Maltby, Lebda or Lilja in the offseason.

They will probably go with a 22-man roster for the majority of next year due to the cap, with Meech serving as the spare forward and defenseman again.

Larsson holds the edge to get the backup duty over Howard due to having performed better and due to a lower cap number, but Howard's age may see him on the NHL roster as Larsson can stay in the AHL for a couple more years while it's basically do or die time for Howard in the Wings' organization.

Ericsson replaces Chelios, and Helm and Leino will get looked at for forward positions, starting with the opening left by Hossa. If they have enough cap space, Leino will be on the roster. If they have enough roster space and cap space, both players will be in the NHL, with Meech only needing to play forward when the Wings have many injuries.

Next season is the only season when cap space is tight with regards to keeping Hossa; so if Hossa would take another one-year deal for cheap to stick around, we can keep him. Otherwise, it's highly unlikely. Past next year, the cap space becomes much more easily available as Lidstrom and Holmstrom will begin to cost less per season, and Draper and Maltby will likely be replaced within a few years by cheaper alternatives such as Helm and Abdelkader.

[Datsyerberger 279]

Just did some more math. Yep, losing people is gonna suck.

Dats - Z - Homer

Franzen - Flip - Leino

Hudler - Helm - Cleary

Maltby - Draper - Kopecky

Meech

Raffi - Lids

Kronner - Stuart

Big Rig - Lebda

Some Cheap Guy (prospect?)

Ozzie

Howard or Larsson

Equals 57.5-58 mil, assuming Z gets 7 mil and Franzen and Hudler get 3. In other words, 1.5-2 mil over the cap with a 22 man roster. That's after having traded Lilja and lost Sammy, Hossa, Conklin, and Chelios to UFA, and replaced them with cheaper players (or not replaced them at all).

Basically, unless the Wings experience a minor miracle from the divinity of Kenny Holland, we have to lose one of Flip, Hudler, or Franzen (or Kronwall or Raffi, but that would just be silly). In that case, not only will be under the cap, but we can have a 23 man roster and keep Lilja (probably not Sammy, as I expect him to make more money this offseason). Just for the sake of argument, let's say we lose Flip or Hudler.

If you use the same line-up and call it the Minor Miracle scenario, in which Z takes 7 mil and Franzen and Hudler take 2 mil each (or any of combination of numbers which equals 4 mil total, like Franzen = 2.5 and Hudler = 1.5 or whatever), you come in between 55.5 and 56 mil, so right up on the current cap.

Dats - Z - Homer

Franzen - Flip OR Hudler - Leino

Kopecky - Helm - Cleary

Maltby - Draper - Mac/Downey/Some Other Cheap Guy

Meech

Raffi - Lids

Kronner - Stuart

Big Rig - Lilja

Lebda

Chelios? (lets say he resigns for .6 -- if you loathe him, just pretend he gets replaced with a prospect of equal monetary value)

Ozzie

Howard or Larsson

Equals 55.91 -- In other words, somewhere just under the (current) cap. Go to a 22 man roster (since you have the versatility of Meech, either by dropping one of the spare forwards or one of the d-men) and you're about half a mil under the cap.

The next one is what I'll call the "Holland Just Died, and then Rose Again After 3 Days" scenario. Zetterberg takes Datsyuk money, Franzen and Hudler take cheap short term deals (1.5 each), Hossa takes a cheap short term deal (3.5). Assumes Flip gets traded, Sammy & Conklin are gone, Chelios is gone.

Hossa - Dats - Homer

Franzen - Z - Leino

Hudler - Helm - Cleary

Maltby - Draper - Kopecky

Meech

Raffi - Lids

Kronner - Stuart

Lilja - Big Rig

Lebda

Ozzie

Howard or Larsson

Equals about 55.5 mil, give or take a couple decimal places. Git r done, Kenny