Datsyuk or Fedorov

[egroen 384]

I think Dino, say what you want about the era he played in, deserves the Hall more than Sergei "I had 2 unreal seasons, and a bunch of mediocre seasons" Fedorov.

Dino merely had a LOT of mediocore seasons. Only twice in his entire career was he amongst the top 10 in goal scoring (4th and 5th) and he was only twice in the top 10 in points (6th and 9th). He has never even been a 1st or 2nd Team All Star.

Dino merely had the good fortune of playing a lot of games in the highest scoring period of the NHL - he was never considered one of the best players in the league, never mind even at his position.

Edited January 22, 2009 by egroen

[Opie 308]

What he said.

True but all of Feds feats were in a span of 5 years, Feds consistency will be the problem. He was UNREAL for 2 years, I have already acknowledge that.

Shanny did it over time, and was consistently one of top wingers in the game.

Feds left the Wings and became an better than Average player.

Outside of the Wings how many times has Feds scored more than 70 points? Shanny?

Without Shanny and Yzerman how many 70 point seasons does Feds have?

But it is all opinion and I say he is not a shoe in.

[eva unit zero 271]

Datsyuk isn't a shutdown center? he completely eliminated Thornton during the Sharks game. Your "Shutdown center" was a minus 4 and the Sharks second line dominated Z.

This season exposes Z for what he is, a PPG player who is defensively respondsible. Unless hes paired with Datsyuk, hes not elite and hes not a Selke nominee. As it stands, Datsyuk, Richards and Kesler are going to be the finalists. I wonder if a "Slump" can last the span of a ten year deal?

Dats is very good defensively, but he isn't the center used in in key defensive/PK situations. That would be Zetterberg.

As far as Selke finalists, Samuel Pahlsson, Henrik Zetterberg, Mikko Koivu, Michal Handzus, Marty Reasoner, John Madden are other names that have just as strong a chance of popping up as finalists this season.

[Nogood 0]

Dats is very good defensively, but he isn't the center used in in key defensive/PK situations. That would be Zetterberg.

As far as Selke finalists, Samuel Pahlsson, Henrik Zetterberg, Mikko Koivu, Michal Handzus, Marty Reasoner, John Madden are other names that have just as strong a chance of popping up as finalists this season.

Again, Datsyuk's line plays against the other teams top line. He also plays on the PK, just as much as Z and Draper.

Datsyuk and Richards are the two front runners for the Selke. Z doesn't have a chance and the only guy from your list that does is Madden. But his stock has dropped from last season.

The Datsyuk vs Zetterberg debate is pointless, its the easiest situation ever to compare and the only thing you can cling to his that Z is on the 5 on 3. I don't want to go through pages of discussion to get to that point because its all you have and really, its impossible to debate. Z plays on the 5 on 3 and Datsyuk doesn't, although he does, if and when the puck gets cleared.

Again, i'll take the opinion of hundreds of professionals without an obvious bias over your's and your zinger of a point.

[egroen 384]

True but all of Feds feats were in a span of 5 years, Feds consistency will be the problem. He was UNREAL for 2 years, I have already acknowledge that.

Shanny did it over time, and was consistently one of top wingers in the game.

Feds left the Wings and became an better than Average player.

Outside of the Wings how many times has Feds scored more than 70 points? Shanny?

Without Shanny and Yzerman how many 70 point seasons does Feds have?

But it is all opinion and I say he is not a shoe in.

Feds has one of the best years ever recorded for a forward, but it is his play in the plaoyffs that really put him over the top.

Shanahan's years of consistent good play will not bump him over that (especially if we factor Fedorov's defensive game into the equation).

[eva unit zero 271]

The "Loss" Z on his line has done nothing to Datsyuk's stake in the Selke. But the loss of Datsyuk has all but removed Z from contention.

You're confusing the fact that Datsyuk still has Hossa in Z's place, while Z does not have an elite two-way forward to replace Datsyuk but is still serving as the primary shutdown center. That is a HUGE factor in Z's offensive game being lower. Z has much weaker linemates now, so it is more difficult for him to serve his role as a shutdown center when his linemates are weaker defensively than they were last year, because it means he has to do more work, and the line has more weaknesses. It also means he is spending more time in the defensive end, and therefore less time offensively; hence the lower scoring.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

If this is Datsyuks best season, then I'd take Fedorov's best season over Datsyuk's in a heartbeat. With that said, I think Datsyuk will remain effective longer than Fedorov did, and I much prefer Datsyuks attitude to Fedorov's. Not to mention, I'd take Datsyuks moves over anyone elses in the history of the NHL, outside of Pavel Bure.

[Opie 308]

You're confusing the fact that Datsyuk still has Hossa in Z's place, while Z does not have an elite two-way forward to replace Datsyuk but is still serving as the primary shutdown center. That is a HUGE factor in Z's offensive game being lower. Z has much weaker linemates now, so it is more difficult for him to serve his role as a shutdown center when his linemates are weaker defensively than they were last year, because it means he has to do more work, and the line has more weaknesses. It also means he is spending more time in the defensive end, and therefore less time offensively; hence the lower scoring.

So what about when Hossa went to Z's line and Dats still produced?

[Opie 308]

Feds has one of the best years ever recorded for a forward, but it is his play in the plaoyffs that really put him over the top.

Shanahan's years of consistent good play will not bump him over that (especially if we factor Fedorov's defensive game into the equation).

Fair enough, I still see Shanny as the "Favorite" in the race, for lack of better term, but like I said that is my opinion.

I can see your point as it is well worded and you bring up tangibles, not well he is the best because I say so!!

[eva unit zero 271]

So what about when Hossa went to Z's line and Dats still produced?

Because Dats isn't serving as a defensive center first, and he had Franzen and Holmstrom, who are solid offensive wingers. If you remember, when Hossa went to Z's line, Hossa's production went down because the line's job was defense first. Does it mean Hossa was suddenly a worse player?

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I've never seen anyone able to dominate the game the way Fedorov used to, except for Mario, which is pretty damn good company to keep, and Mario isn't within a thousand miles of Fedorov defensively.

Datsyuk is shiftier and has better moves, but Fedorov was way faster and had a harder shot, and more of a disposition to drive to the net and shoot. His ability to take over a game, like I said above, was nearly unparalleled. I realize there's no stat that measures "game-breaker" ability, but if there was Fedorov would be on the top.

With all that said, Pavel is a close second. That electricity you feel when Pavel is taking the puck up ice is the same as Sergei's -- that inevitability that when he has the puck, something good is about to happen. Pavel's attitude and commitment throughout the season is unquestionably better, but I can't overlook Sergei's sheer domination of the whole ice surface when it really mattered.

[egroen 384]

Fair enough, I still see Shanny as the "Favorite" in the race, for lack of better term, but like I said that is my opinion.

I can see your point as it is well worded and you bring up tangibles, not well he is the best because I say so!!

I think that is about all the "give" you are capable of, so thank you!

Consider also, that even in the twilight of their careers, Fedorov is easily the more valuable player. He is still a force all over the ice, putting up points and earning Selke votes... even still playing defense occasionally. He plays on Washington's power play and penalty kill.

Shanahan has turned into a slow, lazy floater just looking for the snipe and is only truly effective on the power play. We would be stringing him up on a regular basis on LGW.com!

[Nogood 0]

You're confusing the fact that Datsyuk still has Hossa in Z's place, while Z does not have an elite two-way forward to replace Datsyuk but is still serving as the primary shutdown center. That is a HUGE factor in Z's offensive game being lower. Z has much weaker linemates now, so it is more difficult for him to serve his role as a shutdown center when his linemates are weaker defensively than they were last year, because it means he has to do more work, and the line has more weaknesses. It also means he is spending more time in the defensive end, and therefore less time offensively; hence the lower scoring.

Z plays with Hossa... and for the majority of the first half he was paired with the Lidstrom pairing.

Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Franzen

Cleary-Zetterberg-Hossa

Both are evenly matched offensively both are pretty even defensively. Z isn't at a disadvantage, he just isn't playing as well because hes not paired with Datsyuk.

[Opie 308]

Because Dats isn't serving as a defensive center first, and he had Franzen and Holmstrom, who are solid offensive wingers. If you remember, when Hossa went to Z's line, Hossa's production went down because the line's job was defense first. Does it mean Hossa was suddenly a worse player?

No, but I wasn't the one giving Dats credit because he had Hossa on his wing. What it points to is that Dats is the better playmaker.

Z and D basically swapped wingers, both continued to produce at the same level they were before hand.

Franzen and Holmer are not Hossa type players. SO with them on his line and his takeaway stat and his turnover ratio are unwavering, what does that mean! Does that mean he is better than he was with a very good 2 way forward on his line? hmm, wait a minute if Hossa is a better Defensive player than Franzen and Franzen went from Z's line to D's line shouldn't that tell us who is the better player. Nope because you won't let it happen, you refuse to admit Dats is better. Because then you would have to admit to being wrong!

Can I ask you a question:

How do you know what the forward roles are?

Did Bab tell you?

Do you have a website that Babs said Z's first responsibility is D, like the rest of the team? However Dats gets to focus on O because he is not a defense first player, even though the rest of the team is?

Your Modus Operandi is to spin in circles until people give up and then you get to think you won the argument, it is actually getting quite old and makes you appear to be not the solid poster I remember you once being.

Now you just throw your opinion around like it is fact or stat, similar to a lot of people on here labeled trolls. Difference being your rep on here is better than that.

[Electrophile 3,554]

Since I'm biased against Feds, and as someone iterated, there's the question of if/when Dats is even in his prime, I'll go with Dats.

What ^ said.

[HockeytownRN 0]

I've never seen anyone able to dominate the game the way Fedorov used to, except for Mario, which is pretty damn good company to keep, and Mario isn't within a thousand miles of Fedorov defensively.

Datsyuk is shiftier and has better moves, but Fedorov was way faster and had a harder shot, and more of a disposition to drive to the net and shoot. His ability to take over a game, like I said above, was nearly unparalleled. I realize there's no stat that measures "game-breaker" ability, but if there was Fedorov would be on the top.

With all that said, Pavel is a close second. That electricity you feel when Pavel is taking the puck up ice is the same as Sergei's -- that inevitability that when he has the puck, something good is about to happen. Pavel's attitude and commitment throughout the season is unquestionably better, but I can't overlook Sergei's sheer domination of the whole ice surface when it really mattered.

Heroes of Hockeytown, I am impressed. You couldn't have said it better. I admit I looked at your age, as I think people who truly didn't watch Sergei play have no idea what an amazing player he was. Pavel is my favorite player presently, and I don't think he is near his prime yet. There is something about the Russians, but Sergei in his prime gave me goosebumps. His two-way play definitely took over a game, and he had moves that "wowed" people with his puck control and speed. I think i'm pretty lucky to have been able to watch Sergei, and now to be able to watch Pavel.

[ManLuv4Clears 7]

I'm biased towards heart and attitude, so with that said it would be Dats hands down. Feds ruined it for me with his half ass attitude during his prime.

[eva unit zero 271]

No, but I wasn't the one giving Dats credit because he had Hossa on his wing. What it points to is that Dats is the better playmaker.

Z and D basically swapped wingers, both continued to produce at the same level they were before hand.

Franzen and Holmer are not Hossa type players. SO with them on his line and his takeaway stat and his turnover ratio are unwavering, what does that mean! Does that mean he is better than he was with a very good 2 way forward on his line? hmm, wait a minute if Hossa is a better Defensive player than Franzen and Franzen went from Z's line to D's line shouldn't that tell us who is the better player. Nope because you won't let it happen, you refuse to admit Dats is better. Because then you would have to admit to being wrong!

Can I ask you a question:

How do you know what the forward roles are?

Did Bab tell you?

Do you have a website that Babs said Z's first responsibility is D, like the rest of the team? However Dats gets to focus on O because he is not a defense first player, even though the rest of the team is?

Your Modus Operandi is to spin in circles until people give up and then you get to think you won the argument, it is actually getting quite old and makes you appear to be not the solid poster I remember you once being.

Now you just throw your opinion around like it is fact or stat, similar to a lot of people on here labeled trolls. Difference being your rep on here is better than that.

Zetterberg, in the games I have watched, is usually playing against the primary PP unit of the other team. Zetterberg is playing on the 5-on-3. Zetterberg plays more against the other team's top line than any other center on the team does. Does that not suggest him as the team's top shutdown center? It certainly is enough evidence to say so. Datsyuk is certainly capable of playing the role if Z is injured , but when Z is healthy it's Z's job.

[Opie 308]

I think that is about all the "give" you are capable of, so thank you!

Consider also, that even in the twilight of their careers, Fedorov is easily the more valuable player. He is still a force all over the ice, putting up points and earning Selke votes (lol when was the last time he was top 3 in selke votes, top 5?)... even still playing defense occasionally. He plays on Washington's power play and penalty kill.

Shanahan has turned into a slow, lazy floater just looking for the snipe and is only truly effective on the power play. We would be stringing him up on a regular basis on LGW.com!

Umm Shanny has out performed Feds in all but 2 seasons of the last 8. BTW his +/- was better more often than not in this period as well. Last time Feds was a + he was a Wing, the last time Shanny was a + was 2 seasons ago his first as a Ranger.

Shanny pts total last 8 years oldest to newest:

78 - 76 - 75 - 68 - 53 - 81 - 62 - 46

Feds

69 - 68 - 83* - 42 - 66* - 56 - 38 - 22

in fact you would have to go back to the 98-99 to find the 3rd season time Feds out produced Shanny.

Slow lazy floater(your words not mine) that gives me 81 points 62 and 46(first year age showed IMO) the last 3 years is more valuable to me than a D forward who puts up 56-38-22, and he is not the defensive forward he was.

Just like we can't pretend the 2 unreal years were the norm lets not pretend like he is still playing the game as hard and as intense (defensively) as when he was a selke winner.

He puts up points sure but at best at a .5/game ratio. Which makes the few years he was great even better, he has been producing at a lower than PPG level for a while yet his PPG is barely below a PPG. Not saying he wasn't awesome in the winged wheel, not saying I would rather have had some one else, just saying he is not shoe in HOF in my opinion.

If I had to do it all again I would take Feds in a heart beat all over again knowing the outcome knowing the drama, I still take him, he was a great Wing. His number won't get retired because of the way he left (not my opinion, my inference). Look no further than your sig to be reminded of what retired numbers mean to the wings.

I know the Wings have never stated their criteria, but I assume it is similar to the Red Sox, and they state you must end your career as a Red Sox. So players like Fred Lynn, Dwight Evans, Manny Ramirex (Best right handed hitter in Franchise History) won't have their numbers retired, but they brought back C. Fisk in another role to get his number up there!

[Opie 308]

Zetterberg, in the games I have watched, is usually playing against the primary PP unit of the other team. Zetterberg is playing on the 5-on-3. Zetterberg plays more against the other team's top line than any other center on the team does. Does that not suggest him as the team's top shutdown center? It certainly is enough evidence to say so. Datsyuk is certainly capable of playing the role if Z is injured , but when Z is healthy it's Z's job.

Sure, was just asking.

I said this last year, to me it says babs would rather have D ready on offense, I saw the two as virtual identicals, to tell the truth. Dats has more to his game on his stick, Z is a better leader and pure scorer.

Other than that I saw the two as pretty evenly matched going into this season. This season has changed my opinion to lead toward Dats. I will also offer I have never watched as many wing's games as this season thanks to the streams that have popped up this year, so that may have influenced my opinion as well and maybe Z is having an off year.

But to me when I watch the games this year it is apparent Dats is the better player. TO ME!

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

No and he hit he 600 goal plateau, Feds has 100= less goals than Dino, Dino is one of 2 players (I think) in the history of the league with 600 goals and not in the HOF. 600 goals and 1200 points are like 300 wins in baseball. They don't eliminate from the Hall, but in almost every case scoring them gets you in the hall.

I think Dino, say what you want about the era he played in, deserves the Hall more than Sergei "I had 2 unreal seasons, and a bunch of mediocre seasons" Fedorov.

BTW: Feds PPG = .95 Shanny = .89

Not exactly a huge difference .06, but point still taken, I wanted to put the numbers up to show they are not drastically different.

The hall (IMO) is not awarded for a couple of or even 7-9 great seasons it is about the whole piece, the whole career and while Feds stats plummeted, Shanny's have stayed very consistent, hmm much like both of their play.

How often did you see his A game?

How often do you see Dats A game?

The question isn't which would you choose when playing in a hypothetical (as I understand it) it was about who would you take on a night in night out, year after year, in their prime. Feds was hit or miss with effort and results, Dats appears to be pretty steady and consistent.

Dats has 2 cups, Feds has 3.

But not close, huh!?

My interpretation of the question is at their prime who would you rather have.

Fedorov was faster, had a better shot, dominant player that few people could touch. He was also better than Datsyuk on defense.

So ya, if night in and night out Federov was at his prime......

no question Fedorov

P.S. I agree with everything you said, my interpretation of the question is obv different than yours

[Opie 308]

P.S. I agree with everything you said, my interpretation of the question is obv different than yours

No, we interpreted the question the same, but at some point in time I questioned someone else's rationale by saying I didn't think feds was HOF shoe in, which completely derailed the thread and had me thinking your post was something it wasn't!!

Edited January 22, 2009 by Opie

[egroen 384]

The Rangers essentialy washed their hands of Shanahan, and he had trouble signing anywhere until only recently (though admittedly, he was probably only seriously considering East Coast teams). Fedorov is still earning $4m a year while Shanahan accepted $800k.

If you give Fedorov an extra 10 points a year to account for his superior defensive value, Shanahan has only outperformed 4 out of the last 8 years (especially as Fedorov has had injury problems)... you have to factor Fedorov's defense and PK into the equation somehow. Fedorov still plays the full ice especially as opposed to Shanahan.

When Fedorov retires - consider the competition he is going to get. You might have the older guys like M. Howe, Gilmour, Oates and Cicarrelli still knocking on the door - and Feds beats all of them. He beats Bure, Shanahan, Selanne, Sundin, Zubov -- all guys who might be retiring around the same time.

The only guys we might see elgible for the HHoF at around the same time that beat him for sure are Lidstrom, Jagr, Brodeur, Sakic and Forsberg --- and 4 out of those 5 guys would all have to retire the exact same year as Fedorov for him to not get in on a first ballot.

Oh - and as for retiring of jerseys -- Sawchuk, Abel and literally Howe did not retire as Red Wings.

Edited January 22, 2009 by egroen

[Opie 308]

The Rangers essentialy washed their hands of Shanahan, and he had trouble signing anywhere until only recently (though admittedly, he was probably only seriously considering East Coast teams). Fedorov is still earning $4m a year while Fedorov accepted $800k.

If you give Fedorov an extra 10 points a year to account for his superior defensive value, Shanahan has only outperformed 4/8 years... you have to factor Fedorov's defense and PK into the equation somehow. Fedorov still plays the full ice especially as opposed to Shanahan.

When Fedorov retires - consider the competition he is going to get. You might have the older guys like M. Howe, Gilmour, Oates and Cicarrelli still knocking on the door - and Feds beats all of them. He beats Bure, Shanahan, Selanne, Sundin, Zubov -- all guys who might be retiring around the same time.

The only guys we might see elgible for the HHoF at around the same time that beat him for sure are Lidstrom, Jagr, Brodeur, Sakic and Forsberg --- and 4 out of those 5 guys would all have to retire the exact same year as Fedorov for him to not get in on a first ballot.

We won't ever see eye to eye on this.

I think feds was HOF caliber for 4-6 years at most, the rest of his career was sub HOF, not s***ty not horrible, just not HOF imo.

But I do have a problem arbitrarily assigning extra points for D, does Shanny get extra points for throwing Knuckles, wearing the A, Locker room presence, showing up night in and night out?

The retire as wings comment- I am not sure how it works with Wings, the Sox thing was an analogy, but I wager the fact that the leaving was messy would make it tougher, and Feds is not Sawchuk, Howe or Abel.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Opie

[egroen 384]

We won't ever see eye to eye on this.

I think feds was HOF caliber for 4-6 years at most, the rest of his career was sub HOF, not s***ty not horrible, just not HOF imo.

But I do have a problem arbitrarily assigning extra points for D, does Shanny get extra points for throwing Knuckles, wearing the A, Locker room presence, showing up night in and night out?

How many players play at a HOF caliber for more than 4-6 years? You're getting into top 25 players of all-time territory now (Yzerman barely has that many HOF caliber seasons), which I am not claiming Fedorov is. He is a top 100 player of all-time, however, and deserving of a first ballot HHoF entry (unless literally all of the above guys retire the same year as him).

Shanahan certainly was not even close to HOF caliber for more than 4-6 years -- especially considering in his strongest category, goals, he was only in the top 5 of the league once in his entire career (5th in 1994). He has never been amongst the top 5 in the league in points. I could argue Shanahan has not had one single season of HOF caliber in his entire career, he has just had a lot of "good" seasons which will get him in.

Edited January 22, 2009 by egroen