Datsyuk or Fedorov

[Opie 308]

How many players play at a HOF caliber for more than 4-6 years? You're getting into top 25 players of all-time territory now (Yzerman barely has that many HOF caliber seasons), which I am not claiming Fedorov is. He is a top 100 player of all-time, however, and deserving of a first ballot HHoF entry (unless literally all of the above guys retire the same year as him).

Shanahan certainly was not even close to HOF caliber for more than 4-6 years -- especially considering in his strongest category, goals, he was only in the top 5 of the league once in his entire career (5th in 1994). He has never been amongst the top 5 in the league in points. I could argue Shanahan has not had one single season of HOF caliber in his entire career, he has just had a lot of "good" seasons which will get him in.

How many 70 + gp 50pt seasons did Shanny have?

I already stated that in my original post I typed Shanny and not Jagr, I am not saying Shanny is first ballot, just that he hit certain milestones that put him in the HOF before Feds who played UNREAL for all of 2 seasons.

Feds 2 years that earn him HOF are 93-94 and 95-96 after that he hit 80 points exactly 1 time! So because he had his Jim Carrey Year © and another terrific one he is HOF.

Shanny has 600 goals which has put everyone else except Dino and 1 other in the HOF, he has over 1300 points how many players with 1300 points are not in the HOF?

BTW, I said 4-6 to prevent arguments, he has had 2 HOF years that is it. Shanny had an HOF career as evidence by his numbers that have put virtually everyone else with those numbers in the HOF.

Yzerman had a great career that put him in, Howe had a great career that put him in, Lemieux had a great career that put him in, Feds had 2 great years, that IMO should not put him in, otherwise lets start calling it the hall of extremely great for a couple of years.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Opie

[egroen 384]

You meant Jagr? Seriously?

Jagr definitely gets in ahead of Fedorov. But again just look at the competition and you will see Fedorov will easily be a first ballot as well.

[Opie 308]

You meant Jagr? Seriously?

Jagr definitely gets in ahead of Fedorov. But again just look at the competition and you will see Fedorov will easily be a first ballot as well.

Just in my first post, I still believe Shanny makes it ahead of him, however in my first post I typed "look at Yzerman and Shanny" when talking about first ballot sure fire HOFers and I meant Jagr then and only then. The rest of the discussion I meant Shanny!!!

Sorry for confusing you, annoying day at work.

Maybe based on competition but I think Sundin, Selanne (who have better numbers than Feds) have a better shot than Feds, again due to the fact he had 2 UNREAL years and nothing more.

Good conversation egroen, always good to work the brain!!!

See you all tomorrow!

[Dano33 41]

How many 70 + gp 50pt seasons did Shanny have?

I already stated that in my original post I typed Shanny and not Jagr, I am not saying Shanny is first ballot, just that he hit certain milestones that put him in the HOF before Feds who played UNREAL for all of 2 seasons.

Feds 2 years that earn him HOF are 93-94 and 95-96 after that he hit 80 points exactly 1 time! So because he had his Jim Carrey Year © and another terrific one he is HOF.

Shanny has 600 goals which has put everyone else except Dino and 1 other in the HOF, he has over 1300 points how many players with 1300 points are not in the HOF?

BTW, I said 4-6 to prevent arguments, he has had 2 HOF years that is it. Shanny had an HOF career as evidence by his numbers that have put virtually everyone else with those numbers in the HOF.

Yzerman had a great career that put him in, Howe had a great career that put him in, Lemieux had a great career that put him in, Feds had 2 great years, that IMO should not put him in, otherwise lets start calling it the hall of extremely great for a couple of years.

You can't compare Fedorov to Carey. Carey had 1-2 awesome seasons and was BELOW AVERAGE otherwise. Fedorov was still a dominant player even though his numbers dropped a bit.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Dano33

[Opie 308]

You can't compare Fedorov to Carey. Carey had 1-2 awesome seasons and was BELOW AVERAGE otherwise. Fedorov was still a dominant player even though his numbers dropped a bit.

My problem I guess is with the definition of dominant, he wasn't dominant the last few years in the D let alone after leaving Detroit.

My definition of Dominant, AO (last season was dominant), Jagr, Gretzky, Howe you mean to tell me when Feds was in C-bus he was dominant, he still is?

In ANA?

And I didn't compare the careers just that he had that kind of year ONCE and ONLY ONCE!

He had another year where he was great, but it wasn't 93-94.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Opie

[Dano33 41]

My problem I guess is with the definition of dominant, he wasn't dominant the last few years in the D let alone after leaving Detroit.

My definition of Dominant, AO (last season was dominant), Jagr, Gretzky, Howe you mean to tell me when Feds was in C-bus he was dominant, he still is?

In ANA?

And I didn't compare the careers just that he had that kind of year ONCE and ONLY ONCE!

He had another year where he was great, but it wasn't 93-94.

His last 3 seasons in Detroit were his best three since 96 when he had 107 pts. These three seasons also included his best +/- since that year too.

[gcom007 1,465]

No hate towards Feds, I'd still take him back, but I go with Dats. I think his "prime" is a bit more consistent, I think it will also last longer than Federov's. Feds was a really frustrating player. Who can argue that he wasn't among the best ever when he turned it on, but it was so hit or miss. There's just a lot more drama in his head than with Datsyuk. Datsyuk is a low-key guy, kinda a lead by example guy who gives his all every night and he's a superstar. It rubs off better on the other guys no doubt. Sure, it's a tough call, but Dats it is.

[Opie 308]

His last 3 seasons in Detroit were his best three since 96 when he had 107 pts. These three seasons also included his best +/- since that year too.

That is my point, he scored 65,69,83 points coincidentally those would also be the best three years he has had since he left, he has not score +65 pts since leaving.

83 in that year wasn't even top 10, let alone dominating. He was +15 that year in case you wanted to say that he was dominating on the defensive end of things! For a comparison Yzerman was + 13, oh in only 16 games! And in that same year a youngster cutting his teeth in 69 games was a + 20, Datsyuk! That is interesting, things that make you go hmmmmmm!

HE HAD 1 PHENOMENAL YEAR, AND 1 GREAT YEAR

Then the rest he is barely in the same conversation as Shanny.

If Feds had 600 goals and 1300 points I would say yes HOF without a doubt, as it is I have my doubts due to his less than stellar numbers.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Opie

[therock48880 14]

The original question was Fedorov in his prime, which pretty much seals any debate. Feds by a rather large margin if we're only talking about his prime years. In reading those who chose Datsyuk, it seems to be more of a personal dislike of Fedorov than a matter of which player was actually better. (This is coming from a HUGE Datsyuk fan)

[Dano33 41]

That is my point, he scored 65,69,83 points coincidentally those would also be the best three years he has had since he left, he has not score +65 pts since leaving.

83 in that year wasn't even top 10, let alone dominating. He was +15 that year in case you wanted to say that he was dominating on the defensive end of things! For a comparison Yzerman was + 13, oh in only 16 games! And in that same year a youngster cutting his teeth in 69 games was a + 20, Datsyuk! That is interesting, things that make you go hmmmmmm!

HE HAD 1 PHENOMENAL YEAR, AND 1 GREAT YEAR

Then the rest he is barely in the same conversation as Shanny.

If Feds had 600 goals and 1300 points I would say yes HOF without a doubt, as it is I have my doubts due to his less than stellar numbers.

I dunno, take away the two best years from both and i would say they are pretty comparable. Shanny with the edge in the offensive zone, Fedorov with the edge in the defensive zone. I'll take Fedorov.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

That is my point, he scored 65,69,83 points coincidentally those would also be the best three years he has had since he left, he has not score +65 pts since leaving.

83 in that year wasn't even top 10, let alone dominating. He was +15 that year in case you wanted to say that he was dominating on the defensive end of things! For a comparison Yzerman was + 13, oh in only 16 games! And in that same year a youngster cutting his teeth in 69 games was a + 20, Datsyuk! That is interesting, things that make you go hmmmmmm!

HE HAD 1 PHENOMENAL YEAR, AND 1 GREAT YEAR

Then the rest he is barely in the same conversation as Shanny.

If Feds had 600 goals and 1300 points I would say yes HOF without a doubt, as it is I have my doubts due to his less than stellar numbers.

See Bernie Federko.

[Opie 308]

As a straight up raw talent, I take feds too, for what they were only with the Wings, I take Feds as inconsistent as he could be, in a Red Wing Uni Feds was better than Shanny. The sum total of all parts Shanny has better numbers and is in my opinion a better candidate for the Hall of Fame. Shanny was good before Det, after Det, and up until this past season was as dominant at 65 points as Feds, and even more so when feds was a 50 point - 7 player.

As far as Dats and Feds I take Dats, more consistent and better team first attitude those are the only reasons. Flash they are equal, defensively close but Feds, stick handling Dats, playmaking Dats, Shot Feds by a lot. Not that Dats has a bad shot, but he doesn't have the Hardest shot competition in his future!!

[Opie 308]

See Bernie Federko.

See Cam Neely, what is your point, I never said people that I thought didn't deserve it weren't in the Hall!

So some one with lesser numbers got in, that means I think he deserved it? Or are you trying to say that 600 and 1300 is not like 300 wins?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

As a straight up raw talent, I take feds too, for what they were only with the Wings, I take Feds as inconsistent as he could be, in a Red Wing Uni Feds was better than Shanny. The sum total of all parts Shanny has better numbers and is in my opinion a better candidate for the Hall of Fame. Shanny was good before Det, after Det, and up until this past season was as dominant at 65 points as Feds, and even more so when feds was a 50 point - 7 player.

As far as Dats and Feds I take Dats, more consistent and better team first attitude those are the only reasons. Flash they are equal, defensively close but Feds, stick handling Dats, playmaking Dats, Shot Feds by a lot. Not that Dats has a bad shot, but he doesn't have the Hardest shot competition in his future!!

Defensively they aren't close. Fedorov could actually play defense. Could you envision Datsyuk lining up as a defenseman for several games?

That, along with Fedorov's shot and the fact that he dated Kournikova puts him over the top.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

See Cam Neely, what is your point, I never said people that I thought didn't deserve it weren't in the Hall!

So some one with lesser numbers got in, that means I think he deserved it? Or are you trying to say that 600 and 1300 is not like 300 wins?

I'm just saying that guys like Federko and Neely opened the door for many players.

Fedorov is actually not one of those players, because to me he is a slam dunk. If anything else, he actually won several Cups, which neither Neely or Federko ever did.

There's no decent argument for why those guys can make it but he can't.

[Opie 308]

Defensively they aren't close. Fedorov could actually play defense. Could you envision Datsyuk lining up as a defenseman for several games?

That, along with Fedorov's shot and the fact that he dated Kournikova puts him over the top.

OK bare with me here long thought, at home from work, recreating.

It took Bowman to put Feds back there correct? Or had he played in Russia? I don't know that he did so this thought is under that assumption.

Bowman is a once in a league's existence type of coach, have you ever seen anyone try Dats at the position of D? I haven't.

What I can assume though is that based upon the heady way he plays the game, similar to Lids in the heady way not D Skill, that he would be able to have the same vision, add that to the fact that he is extremely responsible in his own end already, I don't think it is a stretch to believe he can play it. He is just as good of a Defensive forward as Feds, the fact Feds proved he could play the position of D lead me to give him the edge.

[Opie 308]

I'm just saying that guys like Federko and Neely opened the door for many players.

Fedorov is actually not one of those players, because to me he is a slam dunk. If anything else, he actually won several Cups, which neither Neely or Federko ever did.

There's no decent argument for why those guys can make it but he can't.

I can not, though I would love to, argue with that!!!

[HockeytownRN 0]

We all know the drama, and at the end of his Wings career the "inconsistency", but Sergei was well respected and liked in the dressing room for the better part of his Wings career. He also won the "Hart" trophy in addition to the two Selke's. His 4 years of playoff points 20 or greater is better than Shanni's.....umm...zero? Plus Shanni has 5 more years on Fedorov. I don't think Feds will come near 600 goals, but to say that Shanni is way better than him I have to disagree. They were both good players. Look at his points the 12 years he played with the Wings and see how much "inconsistency" he had.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

OK bare with me here long thought, at home from work, recreating.

It took Bowman to put Feds back there correct? Or had he played in Russia? I don't know that he did so this thought is under that assumption.

Bowman is a once in a league's existence type of coach, have you ever seen anyone try Dats at the position of D? I haven't.

What I can assume though is that based upon the heady way he plays the game, similar to Lids in the heady way not D Skill, that he would be able to have the same vision, add that to the fact that he is extremely responsible in his own end already, I don't think it is a stretch to believe he can play it. He is just as good of a Defensive forward as Feds, the fact Feds proved he could play the position of D lead me to give him the edge.

Maybe, but it's still hypothetical.

Feds became sound defensively earlier in his career than Datsyuk did. Also, he has one more Selke trophy than Datsyuk. Of course Datsyuk could very well win another one, but at this point I'd have to say that Fedorov was a better all-around defensive forward than Datsyuk.

Also, I don't think that any good defensive forward could play defense, or else we'd see it more often. I believe it takes something extra to be able to do that, because you have to go against all your instincts as a player.

[Broken 16 381]

Shanny shouldn't even be mentioned in this thread. [/end personal pet peeve]

Fedorov was ridiculous in his prime. If I remember correctly, he scored 5 goals against the Kings (?) back around '96. The 5th being an overtime winner.

No sense in regurgitating numbers that have already been posted in this thread, but if I had my choice of players in their prime... I take Fedorov over Dats and Z in a heartbeat. He was THAT dominant. I never got all worked about the regular season when it came to Fedorov because he saved his best hockey for when it counted most.

Pavs and Z are awesome, but at this point they may as well be Fedorov's stick boys. Time will tell on Pavs and Z. They're off to an awesome start. But neither are capable of putting the team on their back and carrying them the way Fedorov was able to. Fedorov was literally able to win games BY HIMSELF. (ok, figuratively... but you get the point)

[Booster313 138]

It depends are you asking who's skill I would rather have in their prime?

That has to be Fedorov.

However if we are taking into account; work ethic, teamwork, leadership, personality and skill.

Well then Datsyuk wins.

[egroen 384]

I think, Opie, you are seriously underrestimating how much the HHoF values the playoffs. Out of all the guys mentioned in our discussion (Shanahan, Selanne, Sundin, Cicarrelli) Fedorov not only has the most individual hardware, the most Cups, but he has BY FAR the most dominating playoff performances. Combined, these guys have one single post-season where they scored 20 points, and Fedorov did it 4 times, in a row! Fedorov also has the unique advantage over these guys in that he alone, for however brief it was, was considered the best player in the world. No player has ever won the Hart and the Selke in one season.

Sundin, lacking a Cup and any major hardware whatsoever, may never make it in.

Selanne may have officially punched his ticket when he won with the Ducks, but prior to that was primarily known as a playoff choker.

Shanahan is in for sure, but not just because of the regular season - 3 Cups is the icing on his cake.

Cicarrelli may never make it in. No Cups. No hardware and a jackass to boot.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

You're confusing the fact that Datsyuk still has Hossa in Z's place, while Z does not have an elite two-way forward to replace Datsyuk but is still serving as the primary shutdown center. That is a HUGE factor in Z's offensive game being lower. Z has much weaker linemates now, so it is more difficult for him to serve his role as a shutdown center when his linemates are weaker defensively than they were last year, because it means he has to do more work, and the line has more weaknesses. It also means he is spending more time in the defensive end, and therefore less time offensively; hence the lower scoring.

actually, hossa's been on z's line for more than a month. doesn't matter who datsyuk's been with, he produces. the same can't be said for z.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

actually, hossa's been on z's line for more than a month. doesn't matter who datsyuk's been with, he produces. the same can't be said for z.

I think Fedorov is a lock for the Hall of Fame. Problems in leaving Detroit notwithstanding, he has had a wonderful career. Not been the player he was since he left D-town but the numbers are there. An early Russian superstar and overall one of the greatest Russian hockey players ever. He'll get in no doubt.

Shanahan, no doubt 1st ballot HOFer end of discussion. Isn't Shanny like the only guy with a bazillion goals and a bazillion penalty minutes? The championships are there and he stood out amongst a generation of players as a true force, a true sniping, power forward.

In regards to the rock's comments about alot of us not picking Feds over Dats because of like/dislike issues. I would say it isn't so black and white. I don't have any kind of hatred of Feds. My pick is solely based on the fact that both are fantastic players in all 3 zones and capable of changing games with their play. But one guy is a me guy. The other is a we guy. I'll take the guy who may be just a smidge less talented but has good character and leadership and doesn't act like a prima donna over the slightly more talented guy who is sort of a ***** at times.

By the way, IMO Dats not only is NOT a smidge less talented than Feds. I think Datsyuk, the whole package or raw talent and incredible hockey sense is more talented than Fedorov and frankly, aside from Nick Lidstrom, the most impressive hockey player i've seen in my lifetime. Not a Bure or AO or Neely or Shanny type of player, but just phenomenal at everything. The only thing Dats doesn't do is fight. Everything else he does at a higher level than 95% of his peers. Amazing hockey player.

[norrisnick 1]

Fedorov.

Opie is out of his mind.

Bye Yzy.