Bettman Tried Three Times to Sell Coyotes

[wings5gal 0]

I still don't understand why WI doesn't have a team. From what I hear, talking to people in WI, and from what I know of the UW system, hockey is Huge there. There would be, eventually, a fan base. It might take a year or so. But it would come. I know the AHL team gets support, and Badger hockey is a big thing, but then all Badger sports are. Even people that aren't really hockey fans that know I am will talk me about the minor league teams and the college teams in WI. I hear a lot about the Green Bay Gamblers.

And well, the Wild could hate them on principle. In MN, we already get border-battle going with football. I wouldn't mind seeing it hockey either. I believe there is a similar Packers/Bears rivalry that could concievably transfer over in the off season.

And sponsorship, I doubt would be an issue. I'm not really sure who sponsors would be, but I'm sure there'd be more than one company willing to step up and take a chance.

[w1ng3dLV 3]

Yeah- no one lives in Vegas 365 days a year.

Vegas is an effing huge city with an incredible number of transplats. The tourists/Casino comp packages just ensure there's always sell outs.

Having a 41 game a year sell out franchise can only HELP the NHL and the sport. I don't care if it's in Vegas or Halifax (my home town).

There is no NHL, NBA, MLB or NFL franchise in Vegas. I assure you- the first one there will flourish.

f*** snow. I live in the maritimes- we're fricking hockey nuts here, but I'm not dilluted enough to believe that means it makes business sense to move a franchise here over somewhere with millions of people and an absolutely massive cooperate structure that is completely untapped in terms of major sport franchises.

Hi everyone, this is my very first post, but I'd like to comment about my thoughts of a team in Vegas...since Vegas is my home. First and foremost, I have been an avid Wings fan since the early '90's. Not a bandwagon jumper, I just have great ******* taste. Seriously, I cried and "believe"d along with all of you when the cup was won for Kons in '98, my fists tend to clench when I'm around Av's fans (well not so much anymore...it's more like...feeling sympathy for seeing a beat down hooker with a broken stiletto). Side note - Illegal in Las Vegas (Clark County)...legal outside of it. The slutty girls that you see in Vegas are in training...the pros hang out in Casinos...hope that clears the confusion.

Albeit, Las Vegas is normally the last place people would ever think of having any professional team, let alone a hockey team. However, Vegas actually has a following for sports...well farm teams (baseball and hockey), any way.

From the early 90's, there was an IHL team in Vegas (Las Vegas Thunder). I'm sure a lot of you could care less of what an IHL team has to offer, but the following that this team had was truly amazing. We had the the talents of Radek Bonk, Pavol Demitra, Paul DiPietro, Curtis Joseph, Petr Nedved, Ruslan Salei, Alexei Yashin and many more. But, the scary part...it shut down in '99.

We now have an ECHL team (Las Vegas Wranglers), similar to the Thunder team, they do pretty well in games and attendance. The part that kills me, is that it's a farm team for the f'n Flames, which produces the likes of Dany Sabourin (need I say more?). All in all, I do feel Vegas is due a professional sport (other than Arena Football, oh wait, we have one of those), I just think that the majors don't want to be the guinea pigs if they invest in a team and it ultimately fails. But hey...who would've thunk...Oklahoma City has a basketball team (Thunder ... how original), so anything's possible.

Besides, if Vegas does have a team...you just earned yourself another "excuse" on your next vacation!

[evilmrt 636]

Ok folks, I found this story in print:

Phoenix's books scare potential buyers away

"A lot of people have kicked the tires, but once they see the numbers, they walk away," said a former NHL governor who is familiar with the Coyotes' situation. "When you see they have 25 years left on their lease at $30-million a year [in losses], they tend to walk away."

The former governor said there have been inquiries from a couple of groups about the Coyotes, but only if they can move the team from its home in Glendale.

One source said Bettman cannot get any takers even though he is offering the team for nothing as long as the buyer covers the Coyotes' liabilities — the annual losses plus a large debt to a New York hedge fund, thought to be about $80-million.

Okay, after reading this, I'm much more skeptical about this franchise even moving. I can only see someone like Balsillie throwing down enough cash for a move. The question then is...does Bettman work out a deal with the Leafs/Wings/Sabres to put the Yotes in Southern Ontario, since its the only way to save the franchise....or does he let it die?

[Coolio Mendez 7]

I would think Milwaukee would be a pretty decent spot if Phoenix has to move.

that sets up instant rivalries with Chicago and Minnesota and would allow Columbus to move to the East so they MIGHT make the playoffs by 2015

Milwaukee falls within Chicago's territorial rights and the Wirtz family is seeking $150MM from the owner of any team that wants to put a team there.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

I still don't understand why WI doesn't have a team. From what I hear, talking to people in WI, and from what I know of the UW system, hockey is Huge there. There would be, eventually, a fan base. It might take a year or so. But it would come. I know the AHL team gets support, and Badger hockey is a big thing, but then all Badger sports are. Even people that aren't really hockey fans that know I am will talk me about the minor league teams and the college teams in WI. I hear a lot about the Green Bay Gamblers.

And well, the Wild could hate them on principle. In MN, we already get border-battle going with football. I wouldn't mind seeing it hockey either. I believe there is a similar Packers/Bears rivalry that could concievably transfer over in the off season.

And sponsorship, I doubt would be an issue. I'm not really sure who sponsors would be, but I'm sure there'd be more than one company willing to step up and take a chance.

Meant to quote and reply to you...read above post.

[BuckeyeWingsfan80 209]

Milwaukee falls within Chicago's territorial rights and the Wirtz family is seeking $150MM from the owner of any team that wants to put a team there.

f*** the Wirtz family. Of course they would prevent the league from putting a franchise in a city were it would succeed. After all, Bill Wirtz did his damnedest to kill one of the more storied franchises in the NHL for nearly 20 years.

[WingNut 25 5]

The thing killing the 'Yotes is their lease deal. If they miss the playoffs (which is looking increasingly likely) and cannot re-negotiate their lease, I'm saying they move to Vegas. Contraction isn't going to happen, especially with The Great One on board.

[wings5gal 0]

Milwaukee falls within Chicago's territorial rights and the Wirtz family is seeking $150MM from the owner of any team that wants to put a team there.

Madison?

Green Bay/Appleton?

Outside of Milwaukee, those are the other two main areas that could support it. Not sure if there would be room in Green Bay, what with the Pack and all, but, there's gotta be somewhere in the state.

[Icteria virens 11]

Yeah, this makes SO MUCH MORE sense than Vegas! Wisconsin is huge on hockey culture, and they have no pro team! I cannot for the life of me understand why you guys think Las Vegas would support an NHL team...in many ways, its worse than Phoenix is. Fanbase? What kind of fanbase do you think you're going to get? You'll just have a bunch of tourists at every game....

WI is not huge on hockey culture. It is not a hockey state. Not at least compared to Minn and MI.

most of the Badger games are on at 10:30 on PBS, about the only time your guaranteed of seeing them in prime time is when they play Minnesota. I have far more opportunity to watch Minn, Michigan, Notre Dame or even Hockey East teams play on the 3 Fox Sports channels I get on digital cable than the Badgers. And it's been that way since I grew up. I remember staying up late to watch them at 10:30.

The Admirals are on radio, never on TV that I can ever think of.

The Bradley Center in MKE , built in 1988, used to host the Bank One Badger Hockey Showdown, an annual New Years time 4 team tourney hosted by UW but they've long since moved that back to Madison, about 8 years ago I think.

The Bucks are already complaining that the area is too old and want a new one. What would happen with the Admirals? Miller park passed with taxpayer funding by ONE VOTE, he was then promptly booted out of office when up for re-election. People don't want to pay for another area. Funny thing that taxpay funding was 1/10 of one percent!!!!!

WI doesn't really have a home NHL market. We get *a few* Wild games on FS North but mostly it's just the Bucks.

The economy isn't great in MKE at all, another rust belt city that has relied on manufacturing too much and hasn't changed the plan. People tend to be frugal and I really don't think most would be willing to pay NHL prices to attend a game. Although the Admirals are avg. 12th in attendence this year if you look at alot of the teams below them they are much smaller towns. I just really doubt ppl in WI will pay NHL prices for tickets.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Icteria virens

[Icteria virens 11]

Milwaukee falls within Chicago's territorial rights and the Wirtz family is seeking $150MM from the owner of any team that wants to put a team there.

if true that's messed up, we get no Hawks games on TV, they played a pre-season game at the Bradley Center when Gretzky was with the Kings, last I remember. There's just no following. And no attempt. We occationally get Wild games on FS North but not very often.

re: Madison, you'd be competing with UW Badgers, Madison's population is only 223K,

Green Bay??? Population 104K (amazing they have an NFL Team isn't it? )

[schulzte 18]

The top ten cities to consider when moving the Coyotes, or any other potential movers or expansion teams, would be:

Seattle, WA/Portland. OR

Milwaukee, WI/Madison, WI

Houston, TX

Kansas City, KS

Las Vegas, NV

Salt Lake City, UT

Oklahoma City, OK

Indianapolis, IN

Kitchener, ON/Hamilton, ON

Grand Rapids, MI

That's the list I would work from when considering new cities for NHL franchises. The three times where two cities are mentioned, it is because If more than one franchise were moving/being started, I would only use one

of those cities due to proximity to each other. Other cities, such as Oakland/San Francisco, Toledo, Dayton, Cincinnatti, Baltimore, Memphis, Orlando, Ann Arbor, and Cleveland, among others, were not considered due to proximity to existing franchises. All of those cities would be able to support an NHL franchise if not for the proximity rule preventing them from obtaining one.

Seattle, Washington - Definitely #1. This is a growing market of 3.5 million that the NBA just walked away from. GET A TEAM IN THERE NOW before the NBA goes back. They do not have to play in the Key Arena, the Tacoma Dome seat 16,000 for hockey. It is not an ideal arena, but it would pass for a year or two with no obstructed view, while a new arena is built. Seattle has hockey history, people forget that Seattle has its name on the Stanley Cup.

Hamilton, Ontario - #2. Second largest city in Ontario with plenty of hockey love and an arena that could host the NHL tommorrow but would need some renovation for increased revenue in the future.

Quebec City, Quebec - #3. The Nordiques didn't leave because of lack of fan support. The Colisee was at 94% capacity when they left for Colorado; they just had an old arena with no suites. I don't understand why everybody thinks Winnipeg would get a team over Quebec. The Jets were playing in front of 4,000 empty seats a night before they left.

Milwaukee, WI - #4. Any state that can sell out 15,000 seats for college hockey deserves an NHL team. The Bradley Center could host the NHL tommorrow, that is a nice building with plenty of suites, better than Joe Louis Arena for sure.

Hartford, CT - #5. Hartford wants the NHL back badly and there is a population base in the region to support the NHL. I think when the Islanders move, that may be a destination to look at.

[eva unit zero 271]

Seattle, Washington - Definitely #1. This is a growing market of 3.5 million that the NBA just walked away from. GET A TEAM IN THERE NOW before the NBA goes back. They do not have to play in the Key Arena, the Tacoma Dome seat 16,000 for hockey. It is not an ideal arena, but it would pass for a year or two with no obstructed view, while a new arena is built. Seattle has hockey history, people forget that Seattle has its name on the Stanley Cup.

Hamilton, Ontario - #2. Second largest city in Ontario with plenty of hockey love and an arena that could host the NHL tommorrow but would need some renovation for increased revenue in the future.

Quebec City, Quebec - #3. The Nordiques didn't leave because of lack of fan support. The Colisee was at 94% capacity when they left for Colorado; they just had an old arena with no suites. I don't understand why everybody thinks Winnipeg would get a team over Quebec. The Jets were playing in front of 4,000 empty seats a night before they left.

Milwaukee, WI - #4. Any state that can sell out 15,000 seats for college hockey deserves an NHL team. The Bradley Center could host the NHL tommorrow, that is a nice building with plenty of suites, better than Joe Louis Arena for sure.

Hartford, CT - #5. Hartford wants the NHL back badly and there is a population base in the region to support the NHL. I think when the Islanders move, that may be a destination to look at.

Quebec left because they had decent fan support with mid-priced tickets and no corporate support or hope of ever getting any. A second team in the province is unlikely to succeed due to the traditional addiction to the Habs.

As far as Hartford...Hartford should not be considered. Do you know why? Between Boston, Ma and Washington, DC by car it is about 450 miles, or 7 hours and 45 minutes, covering a range that includes six NHL franchises as well as Hartford. Hartford is not even close to from the the largest or most isolated large city in this range, as it is almost exactly halfway between Boston and New York.

[miller76 463]

Hartford, CT - #5. Hartford wants the NHL back badly and there is a population base in the region to support the NHL. I think when the Islanders move, that may be a destination to look at.

I think a real possibility is Kansas City more than any place for the Islanders to go to. (if they were to go)

[joshy207 156]

I would put Southern Ontario (Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Hamilton), Houston, and Kansas City at the top of a very short list of candidates for NHL relocation.

If territorial rights can be worked out with Toronto and Buffalo, and if Bettman can ever accept letting Balsillie in the league, S. Ont. is basically a no-brainer. Copps Coliseum in Hamilton can serve as a temporary home until an NHL-quality rink is built. The fan base and interest are there, and corporate support shouldn't be a problem. #1 candidate IMO.

Houston is the #11 US TV market, and the biggest with no nearby NHL team. Houston has hosted teams in the AHL, IHL, and Central League (top minor-pro) as well as the WHA's Aeros with Gordie Howe and his sons. The Aeros play at the Toyota Center, which is also the NBA Rockets' home, so it is big enough for the NHL. Houston is probably the best American market available.

Kansas City has an arena ready to go, and no NBA to compete with. The interest is there. KC did have the Scouts in the late 70s, and they only lasted two years, but those were turbulent financial times for almost every team in every league. I think it could work in KC this time around.

Other choices would include Portland, Seattle, Las Vegas... and honestly, that's probably it. Portland, IMO, would be a better choice than Seattle, although Seattle is larger... and I have reservations about Las Vegas. I don't see the NHL as a tourist attraction in a city like Vegas, there's simply too much to do at the casinos. However, people do actually live there, so hockey could be (at the very least) a distraction for the locals. Might work, might not.

Oklahoma City lobbied hard to get an expansion team in the late 90s, it was one of the final 6 candidates. (I think Houston was the other finalist left out.) But with the NBA recently moving there, I don't think OKC could support another new franchise. All other cities mentioned are too small and/or would not have the needed fan and corporate support to survive.

[VM1138 1,921]

In response to an earlier post: Why the hell would the NHL put a team in Salt Lake City>?

[BlakChamber 8]

In response to an earlier post: Why the hell would the NHL put a team in Salt Lake City>?

For the same reason the NHL would put a team in North Dakota or Maine. There's snow there. For a lot of people, that seems to be the only qualification a city needs.

[evilmrt 636]

For the same reason the NHL would put a team in North Dakota or Maine. There's snow there. For a lot of people, that seems to be the only qualification a city needs.

So says the man from Texas

Actually, I really do agree with you here. I live in the Southwest, but in the highlands....I'm watching a snowstorm out my window right now. It looks like Michigan's U.P. or Northern Ontario. Do you think the people here give a damn about hockey because of the climate? NOPE. Its a balance between population and the potential for hockey culture to solidify. Looking at population OR hockey culture/social attitudes individually is a mistake. And thats why the Yotes have been a failure in America's 5th largest city (and the 2nd largest after LA in the western US). If you look at the numbers alone, it should be a no-brainer. Too bad theres alot more to it than just population numbers. Which is why I think Vegas is more of the same.

Anyway, in this financial climate, Bettman is going to have to make compromises to keep the Yotes/Jets franchise alive. Unless theres someone out there with a ton of cash that we don't know about that wants to move them to Vegas, Portland, Houston, or KC, it still looks like Balsillie wins here with the Hamilton/Southern Ontario thing.

The playoffs don't look like they're happening with this years team...not after games like yesterday's against the Canes.

[webwing91 4]

Am I the only one on these boards that desperately wants the coyotes to stay in Phoenix? The problem here is really that the Coyotes/NHL let the city forget there was hockey in Arizona. Sure maybe in a hockey crazy market you don't need to remind the populace that there is a team around, but in Phoenix you really do. The Coyotes used to draw a lot of fans when they first moved to Phoenix, and I remember if the Red Wings came to town and lost, I would here grief for the next week (from all over the place, not just a couple people). Even when they moved to Glendale Arena (a really nice arena honestly, would be an awesome atmosphere at full capacity in the playoffs) that first year the few games I went to were generally packed (ofcourse the wings games were completely full). However, the lockout has really killed this team. I've yet to see the place nearly as full after the lock out, even Red Wings games. There are a crap load of people from Michigan/detroit over here and even they don't go to the Wings games anymore. The only fans that I see come out in full force are for the Flames. Marketing has been awful, the few commercials I see are really second rate and everything media related looks like it came from a minor league team. That is ofcourse until you get to the arena, it and the area around it are probably one of the nicest places in the state.

Another thing I think that the league and the team have failed to utilize in developing hockey in Arizona is the sun. Yep, the sun. Hockey is a really expensive sport in the desert for a parent to just let their kid take a try at it. However we have over 300 days of sunny skies, lending itself to street hockey really well. For the last ten years in this city, everywhere I go I play street hockey with whoever I can find, and instantly they are hooked. People are always asking me when we are going to play hockey again, and my frat now plays every other week (and now goes to the occasional Coytoes' game). This kind of grass roots/ ground up movement should have been started from day 1 of the Coyotes being here. Instead people in this ESPN addicted city barely remember that there is a National Hockey League, and remember when Keith Tkachuk and Jeremy Roenick played here.

I really hope the team can turn it around this year. Every year they fade at the end and it is really annoying to watch. Gretzky seems to really lose motivation in his team for a few games at a time later in the year and they get phisically outhustled and mentally manhandled time and again.

[selkie 10]

If you can figure out a way to retrofit and expand Van Andel to NHL standards, the numbers could work pretty well for a team in west Michigan. Metro GR has 1.3 million people, and if you add in the Kalamazoo and Lansing metro areas, you get more than 2 million people within an hour's drive or so of the arena. Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo is also a top 40 Nielsen market- bigger than Las Vegas, Jacksonville FL, Oklahoma City, and Buffalo and one of only 4-5 markets in the top 40 (depending if you want to lump West Palm Beach into Ft. Lauderdale/Miami for the purpose of the exercise) that don't have some form of major pro team.

[union drone 0]

Give Winnipeg their team back, can't be any worse.

IMO, that would be poetic justice.

[union drone 0]

Hi everyone, this is my very first post, but I'd like to comment about my thoughts of a team in Vegas...since Vegas is my home.

Besides, if Vegas does have a team...you just earned yourself another "excuse" on your next vacation!

Welcome w1ng3dLV,

You hint at a point that I'd never thought of... a team in Vegas could be effectively marketed to the away team fans!

Think about it: have a package deal... flight plus hotel plus tickets to see your favorite team play in Vegas, not to mention all the other reasons people go to Vegas when it's winter everywhere else.

Package deals for visiting Vegas are already pretty commonplace, bundle in tickets and suddenly you have a significant draw of people from whichever northern clime the Yotes happen to be playing against.

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

So says the man from Texas

Actually, I really do agree with you here. I live in the Southwest, but in the highlands....I'm watching a snowstorm out my window right now. It looks like Michigan's U.P. or Northern Ontario. Do you think the people here give a damn about hockey because of the climate? NOPE. Its a balance between population and the potential for hockey culture to solidify. Looking at population OR hockey culture/social attitudes individually is a mistake. And thats why the Yotes have been a failure in America's 5th largest city (and the 2nd largest after LA in the western US). If you look at the numbers alone, it should be a no-brainer. Too bad theres alot more to it than just population numbers. Which is why I think Vegas is more of the same.

Anyway, in this financial climate, Bettman is going to have to make compromises to keep the Yotes/Jets franchise alive. Unless theres someone out there with a ton of cash that we don't know about that wants to move them to Vegas, Portland, Houston, or KC, it still looks like Balsillie wins here with the Hamilton/Southern Ontario thing.

The playoffs don't look like they're happening with this years team...not after games like yesterday's against the Canes.

Vegas has the luxury of comping free games in turn for casino play, they'll have a full stadium every night.

[w1ng3dLV 3]

Welcome w1ng3dLV,

You hint at a point that I'd never thought of... a team in Vegas could be effectively marketed to the away team fans!

Think about it: have a package deal... flight plus hotel plus tickets to see your favorite team play in Vegas, not to mention all the other reasons people go to Vegas when it's winter everywhere else.

Package deals for visiting Vegas are already pretty commonplace, bundle in tickets and suddenly you have a significant draw of people from whichever northern clime the Yotes happen to be playing against.

Thanks for the welcome!

I figure that if people from Canada were migrating here by the millions to see Celine Dion,~puke~ they would now have a greater reasons to Viva Las Vegas...eh?

On another note: For a couple of years now, the movie producer, Jerry Bruckheimer (a native of Detroit), has been named as one of the investors of a new sports arena in Las Vegas. This new sports arena is rumored to be where a future NHL team would play. Now I'm sure a lot of you may think that a movie producer owning a NHL team would surely fail. But I'm sure someone thought Mike Illitch to be crazy when he, a former Detroit Tiger and now owner, and pizza entrepreneur, bought the Red Wings in '82.

Okay so...I may be comparing apples and oranges, but I do know that as far as the financial side of it goes, Vegas would be more than fine. Seriously, the "Pirates of the Carribean" parts 1-3 and soon to be 4 hedge fund alone would surely pay for all the expenses needed. If not....then there's always "Top Gun"? ~cheezy theme song playing in the background to draw you in~

People, all I'm saying is...yes, the other places are probably ideal places for a Hockey team, but Vegas is THE ideal place, period. Proof? Pre-season games, and the NHL Awards are now both in Vegas.

Thank you, come again!

[vangvace 12]

In response to an earlier post: Why the hell would the NHL put a team in Salt Lake City>?

For the same reason the NHL would put a team in North Dakota or Maine. There's snow there. For a lot of people, that seems to be the only qualification a city needs.

Also, SLC couldn't support the AHL team they did have. It's now a ECHL franchise.

Edit: Though I was kinda serious about my earlier San Juan post.

Edited February 9, 2009 by vangvace

[Hank 0]

For the same reason the NHL would put a team in North Dakota or Maine. There's snow there. For a lot of people, that seems to be the only qualification a city needs.

That's an unfair statement.

I suggested those two areas because of how huge the College Hockey followings are.

It's a much better theory than just slapping a team in an area based on population.

I know that the North Dakota area is smaller in population but doesn't Green Bay only have 90,000 residence.

If the fan base is rabid it will work.

Houston is a very interesting thought. I think that would work.

And I think a Vegas team could do wonders to getting the NHL on the map as far as bringing in new fans.