"OVIE" or "DATS":Best overall player...you pick

[BeeRYCE 2]

Reading this thread has had me asking this question for a while now... Why has Crosby's status dropped a significant amount since the beginning of this season? He is still one of the best 3 players in the NHL (out of Lidstrom, Ovechkin, and himself) whichever way you look at it.

[Guest micah]

Reading this thread has had me asking this question for a while now... Why has Crosby's status dropped a significant amount since the beginning of this season? He is still one of the best 3 players in the NHL (out of Lidstrom, Ovechkin, and himself) whichever way you look at it.

WHAT?! You don't think triangle-head Datsyuk is better than all three of the guys you mentioned? You're un-sensical!

[Datsyerberger 279]

Reading this thread has had me asking this question for a while now... Why has Crosby's status dropped a significant amount since the beginning of this season? He is still one of the best 3 players in the NHL (out of Lidstrom, Ovechkin, and himself) whichever way you look at it.

I disagree, sir.

[C-TownWing 0]

Reading this thread has had me asking this question for a while now... Why has Crosby's status dropped a significant amount since the beginning of this season? He is still one of the best 3 players in the NHL (out of Lidstrom, Ovechkin, and himself) whichever way you look at it.

IDK, I think a lot of people started to think Malkin was better than Crosby last year, when Crosby was out with the ankle for a while and the Pens didn't miss a beat thanks to Geno. So people started to question his true value since the team wasn't really hurt by his absence. Compare/contrast with what happens to us when Lids is out.

To me, that's the point where Crosby exited the Big Three and dropped to the 2nd half of the top 10 somewhere. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Iginla is overrated. People act like he's some kind of hercules when it comes to the physical side of the game, and rank him among the elite offensive players. He is good but not great physically, he has been outperformed offensively by a considerable number of players this season, and then he is a mediocre defensive player. As far as great offensive players who are also physically intimidating, Iginla has to contend with Getzlaf, Richards, Nash, Heatley, Lecavalier, Doan, and Perry of guys close to him in scoring, not to mention Ovechkin and Thornton of guys I've already mentioned who play a similar style.

Crosby may not be better than Iginla as a hitter...but he's a better player.

307 NHL GMs and Scouts have Iginla ranked #1 overall in the NHL, and he's been there since January of 08. I happen to agree.

He hits

He leads

He fights

He plays defensively

He's a playmaker

He scores

Non of the guys you have mentioned have all the tools....if so not nearly the same level.

If Iginla weren't in the West, he'd be a much bigger star in the league. In fact, if I were starting a franchise from scratch, he'd be my choice as its cornerstone. While you could argue better skill available, you can't argue everything else Iginla would bring to the table.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Coolio Mendez

[egroen 384]

307 NHL GMs and Scouts have Iginla ranked #1 overall in the NHL, and he's been there since January of 08. I happen to agree.

He hits - I am starting to think Datsyuk has almost become a "better" hitter than even someone like Iginla - though he does not bowl people over like Iginla is capable of. Datsyuk's hits are perfectly timed and extremely effective.

He leads - Iginla wins here.

He fights - Another Iginla win.

He plays defensively - Datsyuk destroys Iginla defensively.

He's a playmaker - Datsyuk is a much better playmaker.

He scores - Iginla is a better goal scorer than Datsyuk (though not this year).

Datsyuk is amongst the league's best at face-offs.

Datsyuk consistently leads the league in takeaways.

Datsyuk is better on the PP and PK.

Datsyuk is the better skater and stick handler.

Non of the guys you have mentioned have all the tools....if so not nearly the same level.

If Iginla weren't in the West, he'd be a much bigger star in the league. In fact, if I were starting a franchise from scratch, he'd be my choice as its cornerstone. While you could argue better skill available, you can't argue everything else Iginla would bring to the table.

If fighting is your number one requirement for "All-around forward", which it is for a lot of people, than Datsyuk loses. But the only other areas Iginla is ahead of Datsyuk (leadership, hits and goal scoring) is not a huge gap. Personally, I would prefer defensive play over fighting, so I consider Datsyuk a much better all around forward.

[eva unit zero 271]

Reading this thread has had me asking this question for a while now... Why has Crosby's status dropped a significant amount since the beginning of this season? He is still one of the best 3 players in the NHL (out of Lidstrom, Ovechkin, and himself) whichever way you look at it.

Nope.

Crosby is one of the top playmakers, and one of the top centers...but when you start mixing other factors in like goalscoring and defense, and when you add in other positions....he moves down.

Crosby isn't even the best CENTER on his team. That would be Evgeni Malkin.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a much closer argument because they have been playing on the same line for years, sharing center duties, so calling one or the other "better" is such a subjective argument that it's not quite as comparable.

If I had to build a 23-man roster based on performance this season, it would look like this.

Forwards: Ovechkin, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Malkin, Thornton, Crosby, Getzlaf, Iginla, Savard, Marleau, Hossa, Parise, Krejci

Defense: Lidstrom, Chara, Boyle, Rafalski, Wideman, Keith, Green, Weber

Goaltenders: Thomas, Backstrom

[Coolio Mendez 7]

If fighting is your number one requirement for "All-around forward", which it is for a lot of people, than Datsyuk loses. But the only other areas Iginla is ahead of Datsyuk (leadership, hits and goal scoring) is not a huge gap. Personally, I would prefer defensive play over fighting, so I consider Datsyuk a much better all around forward.

One Datsyuk is a center the other is a RW. The center better be the better face-off guy.

They are both great players, Iginla has been around longer playing at a high level so that counts in their rankings.

Iginla is a goal scorer, Datsyuk is a playmaker, generally we put more value on goals.

One thing that is valued so high is leadership. Iginla the best leader in the game. He's the epitome of what captain is and should be. A leader of men. I can teach an idiot how to skate, pass, and shoot the puck. I can't teach leadership. A guy who will do whatever is needed. A goal, a hit, a fight...whatever.

[egroen 384]

One Datsyuk is a center the other is a RW. The center better be the better face-off guy.

They are both great players, Iginla has been around longer playing at a high level so that counts in their rankings.

Iginla is a goal scorer, Datsyuk is a playmaker, generally we put more value on goals.

One thing that is valued so high is leadership. Iginla the best leader in the game. He's the epitome of what captain is and should be. A leader of men. I can teach an idiot how to skate, pass, and shoot the puck. I can't teach leadership. A guy who will do whatever is needed. A goal, a hit, a fight...whatever.

Most of your best "all-around" forwards are centers for a reason.

Iginla is a different type of leader, but not any better of a leader than Yzerman, Sakic or Lidstrom.

And if you can teach any idiot how to skate, pass and shoot the puck -- I would ask that you start giving lessons to Kopecky, immediately.

I simply value a scoring forward who can shut down an opposition's first line more than a scorer who will give you a fight every once in a while. Datsyuk is a threat on both ends of the ice every single shift of every single game while Iginla has been in all of 3 fights this season. Oh, and Datsyuk has also registered more hits this year than Iginla.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Most of your best "all-around" forwards are centers for a reason.

Iginla is a different type of leader, but not any better of a leader than Yzerman, Sakic or Lidstrom.

And if you can teach any idiot how to skate, pass and shoot the puck -- I would ask that you start giving lessons to Kopecky, immediately.

I simply value a scoring forward who can shut down an opposition's first line more than a scorer who will give you a fight every once in a while. Datsyuk is a threat on both ends of the ice every single shift of every single game while Iginla has been in all of 3 fights this season. Oh, and Datsyuk has also registered more hits this year than Iginla.

Not by any means comparing Yzerman to Iginla leadership wise, but Iginla was voted best leader amongst current NHLers by the active players. Who am I to question what the players know? Ultimately the points between the two cancel each other out (keep in mind if Datsyuk continues to play at the same level this will be his first year to surpasses Iginla in point department) you prefer Datsyuk's defensive mastery and I prefer Iginla's leadership and grit. To-May-to, To-Mah-To.

Edited February 27, 2009 by Coolio Mendez

[eva unit zero 271]

you prefer Datsyuk's defensive mastery and I prefer Iginla's leadership and grit. To-May-to, To-Mah-To.

Which is why I take Zetterberg as the best forward. Because although Dats is the one with the Selke win, even Datsyuk will tell you Zetterberg is the better defensive player. And then you look at leadership, well he's the future captain of the Wings and would be the captain now if not for the greatest defenseman in franchise history, who was recently voted the best captain of the decade. Zetterberg is considered a gritty player and a leader, but is also an elite offensive and defensive player who is known for clutch play. You say to-may-to, he says to-mah-to, I say pomegranate.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Just because Malkin has more points, DOESN'T mean he's better than Crosby.

[Doggy 130]

Just because Malkin has more points, DOESN'T mean he's better than Crosby.

No. The fact that the league doesn't shove him down everyone's throats makes him better.... right?

[egroen 384]

Which is why I take Zetterberg as the best forward. Because although Dats is the one with the Selke win, even Datsyuk will tell you Zetterberg is the better defensive player. And then you look at leadership, well he's the future captain of the Wings and would be the captain now if not for the greatest defenseman in franchise history, who was recently voted the best captain of the decade. Zetterberg is considered a gritty player and a leader, but is also an elite offensive and defensive player who is known for clutch play. You say to-may-to, he says to-mah-to, I say pomegranate.

Perhaps, but you base that off of one quote, which could very well have been an "Aww, shucks" selfless compliment, from Datsyuk. Zetterberg definitely has more "captain" qualities, but Datsyuk is an alternate captain for good reason I bet. Despite his willingness to defer to Zetterberg, especially in front of the media, Datsyuk possesses many leadership qualities: dedication, work ethic, passion for the game, class and the willingness to do everything for the team. More so than anyone else on the team, he is that guy who can take over a game and keep you glued to your seat.

To-mah-to!

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Which is why I take Zetterberg as the best forward. Because although Dats is the one with the Selke win, even Datsyuk will tell you Zetterberg is the better defensive player. And then you look at leadership, well he's the future captain of the Wings and would be the captain now if not for the greatest defenseman in franchise history, who was recently voted the best captain of the decade. Zetterberg is considered a gritty player and a leader, but is also an elite offensive and defensive player who is known for clutch play. You say to-may-to, he says to-mah-to, I say pomegranate.

I prefer Datsyuk to Zetterberg. He's 'prettier' to watch and I think he's a smarter player than Zetterberg (in fact, I think Datsyuk is one of the smartest players in the league)

Zetterberg needs Datsyuk more than Datsyuk needs Zetterberg. Whenever the two have been split up in the past, Datsyuks production has been relatively constant while Zetterbergs production drops off quite a bit.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

Most of your best "all-around" forwards are centers for a reason.

Iginla is a different type of leader, but not any better of a leader than Yzerman, Sakic or Lidstrom.

And if you can teach any idiot how to skate, pass and shoot the puck -- I would ask that you start giving lessons to Kopecky, immediately.

I simply value a scoring forward who can shut down an opposition's first line more than a scorer who will give you a fight every once in a while. Datsyuk is a threat on both ends of the ice every single shift of every single game while Iginla has been in all of 3 fights this season. Oh, and Datsyuk has also registered more hits this year than Iginla.

You shouldn't compare hitting to physicality.......it's laughable. Iginla is a/thee premiere power forward.

Comparing face-offs is laughable.

Put Iginla on the Wings......better PP numbers........100 points every season......+40 every season!

Put Datsyuk on the Flames.......70 points....less PP points.......probably +10 if that......

Heart is another quality.......intangibles. Size. Strength.

A good example...........

Rod BrindAmour is better on face-offs than Alex Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is a better leader than Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is better defensively than Ovechkin

Ovechkin leads the NHL in giveaways

Rod BrindAmour is a better passer than Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is a better fighter than Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is a better penalty killer than Ovechkin

^^^^ All of this is true so is BrindAmour better than Ovechkin? No.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Perhaps, but you base that off of one quote, which could very well have been an "Aww, shucks" selfless compliment, from Datsyuk. Zetterberg definitely has more "captain" qualities, but Datsyuk is an alternate captain for good reason I bet. Despite his willingness to defer to Zetterberg, especially in front of the media, Datsyuk possesses many leadership qualities: dedication, work ethic, passion for the game, class and the willingness to do everything for the team. More so than anyone else on the team, he is that guy who can take over a game and keep you glued to your seat.

To-mah-to!

Not to mention he's been one tough little son of a gun lately

[eva unit zero 271]

I prefer Datsyuk to Zetterberg. He's 'prettier' to watch and I think he's a smarter player than Zetterberg (in fact, I think Datsyuk is one of the smartest players in the league)

Zetterberg needs Datsyuk more than Datsyuk needs Zetterberg. Whenever the two have been split up in the past, Datsyuks production has been relatively constant while Zetterbergs production drops off quite a bit.

When they've been split up, such as the beginning of this season, Datsyuk was used in a primarily offensive role playing with offensive linemates. Zetterberg was used as the top shut-down center and the first priority with Zetterberg was to match him against the opponent's top offensive line.

That's not Zetterberg losing offensive production from not playing with Datsyuk; it's Zetterberg losing production because he was playing as a shut-down center while Datsyuk was playing primarily as a setup man for Marian Hossa, who is an elite goal scorer on Zetterberg's level and therefore Datsyuk's production shouldn't have dropped off at all. Datsyuk's production is similar with similar talent. Zetterberg's production is still a point per game while playing a shut-down role on the second line all season;

If Zetterberg stays in an offensive role while split apart from Datsyuk, his offensive production doesn't typically drop off. It's generally a result of his playing more conservatively than his being without Pavel.

[egroen 384]

Put Iginla on the Wings......better PP numbers........100 points every season......+40 every season!

Put Datsyuk on the Flames.......70 points....less PP points.......probably +10 if that......

Heart is another quality.......intangibles. Size. Strength.

Do you really believe that? Because I find it to be the type of asinine statement that ignorant fans from other teams make all the time.

Datsyuk produces no matter whom he is playing with - and that has often included Holmstrom, Cleary, Franzen, Devereaux, even Kopecky -- guys that are not exactly playmakers. Iginla is not playing on a team devoid of talent either -- he has Phaneuf, Cammalleri, Langkow -- not exactly third line scrubs.

Put Iginla on the Red Wings and he is playing less than 20 minutes a night, his PP time is more evenly distributed and he is required to backcheck more and play more on the PK (he currently is averaging a whole 12 seconds a night). Looking at Hossa this year, I think it is safe to say Iginla is not going to be winning any Art Ross trophies on the Red Wings.

Now if I put Datsyuk with Calgary, he gets almost 2 1/2 minutes more a game, which is really 10 extra games in playing time. He also will see as much as an extra 1 1/2 minutes of power play time per game --> That's around 30 extra games worth of power play time.

Now do you really think Datsyuk's production would "decrease" on another team?

A good example...........

Rod BrindAmour is better on face-offs than Alex Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is a better leader than Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is better defensively than Ovechkin

Ovechkin leads the NHL in giveaways

Rod BrindAmour is a better passer than Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is a better fighter than Ovechkin

Rod BrindAmour is a better penalty killer than Ovechkin

^^^^ All of this is true so is BrindAmour better than Ovechkin? No.

Is Brind'Amour a better "all-around forward" than Ovechkin? It's certainly arguable, isn't it?

But I wouldn't say he is a "better" forward than Ovechkin.

But what were we talking about again?

Edited February 27, 2009 by egroen

[Guest micah]

Now if I put Datsyuk with Calgary, he gets almost 2 1/2 minutes more a game, which is really 10 extra games in playing time. He also will see as much as an extra 1 1/2 minutes of power play time per game --> That's around 30 extra games worth of power play time.

Now do you really think Datsyuk's production would "decrease" on another team?

If Dats were capable of playing an aditional 2-1/2 minutes per game at the level we're acustomed to see him play at, he would be doing so.

[egroen 384]

If Dats were capable of playing an aditional 2-1/2 minutes per game at the level we're acustomed to see him play at, he would be doing so.

Sure - because Babcock obviously needs to get the most out of his superstars during the regular season. He realizes the whole "rolling 4 lines" thing is a load of bunk. That's why we see guys like Hossa and Zetterberg playing 23+ minutes a game - without those guys carrying the load this team would be lost. Too bad Datsyuk can't handle those type of minutes, because if he was, I have a feeling this team would finally be able to make the playoffs.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

If Dats were capable of playing an aditional 2-1/2 minutes per game at the level we're acustomed to see him play at, he would be doing so.

He averaged 2.5 more minutes a game last season and the playoffs. The Wings have more offensive talent now than ever, it makes sense to ration the minutes and keep everyone fresh, especially when there's such little drop off from lines one to two.

[bellarina 1]

No need for comparisons. Dats hands down.

He is the best player in the NHL right now.( <-that is my opinion)

[Opie 308]

No need for comparisons. Dats hands down.

He is the best player in the NHL right now.( <-that is my opinion)

I am a little weary of you last sentence, I believe Dats is the best forward, but I still think best all around player in the game is #5!

[Guest micah]

Sure - because Babcock obviously needs to get the most out of his superstars during the regular season. He realizes the whole "rolling 4 lines" thing is a load of bunk. That's why we see guys like Hossa and Zetterberg playing 23+ minutes a game - without those guys carrying the load this team would be lost. Too bad Datsyuk can't handle those type of minutes, because if he was, I have a feeling this team would finally be able to make the playoffs.

Okay, I'm not certain which argument you want to make.

Is it your oppinion that Dats could play Iginla's minutes without additional fatigue causing him to play at a lower level, or are you of the oppinion that Dats could be playing more than he is, pruducing more, without risking much of anything?