Thoughts on Downey

[therock48880 14]

The Stanley Cup isn't won in a dick measuring contest contrary to what guys like Cherry would have you believe. You actually have to win 16 games of hockey come playoff time.

It's great that a moderator, who should be setting an example for others to follow, chimes in with brilliantly worded comments like this. I'm a teacher and I KNOW that students come to this site to read comments. It's great that they get to see comments like this that add so much to the conversation.

[sureWhyNot 19]

Downey is a great fit for the team. He is better the "average" in terms of enforcing, I would consider him very good actually in regards to dropping the gloves. Is he in the top 10 -- no, but he is definitely better then average. Look at his fight card and the results from the last two years:

Sept 27th, 2007 vs. Andre Roy - Draw (Downey was giving up 3 inches & 14 pounds to Roy)

Oct 18th, 2007 vs Kyle McClaren - Win Downey (Downey giving up 3 inches & 10 pounds to McClaren)

Oct 26, 2007 vs. Rob Davidson - Win Downey (Downey giving up 2 inches & 5 pounds)

Nov 24, 2007 vs. Jody Shelley - Draw (Downey giving up 3 inches & 15 pounds)

Nov 24, 2007 vs. Jared Boll - Win Downey (Downey giving up one inch)

Dec 07, 2007 vs. Todd Fedoruk - Draw (Downey giving up 1 inch & 25 pounds)

Dec 31, 2007 vs. Matt Walker - Win Downey (Downey giving up 2 inches & 21 pounds)

Jan 23, 2008 vs. Sean O'Donnell - Draw (Downey giving up 2 inches & 19 pounds)

Feb 10, 2008 vs. George Parros - Win Downey (Downey giving up 4 inches & 15 pounds)

Feb 18, 2008 vs. Ian Laperriere - Win Downey (Equal height, Downey 15 pounds heavier)

Apr 2, 2008 vs. James Wisniewski - Win Downey (Downey 1 inch taller & 8 pounds heavier)

Mar 03, 2009 vs Cam Janssen - Draw (Equal in size)

Now those are the fights and results from last year and this year for Downey -- a record of 7-0-5. It is also somewhat telling that Downey has been the smaller of two combatants (in some instances by quite a bit IE: Parros, Fedoruk, Shelley, etc.) yet still managed to lose zero of those tilts decidedly. I would also like to point out that from his fight card over the past 2 years Downey had numerous top 10 opponents, those being Andre Roy, Jody Shelley, Jared Boll, George Parros and Cam Jannsen -- all of whom Downey did just fine against, and in some instances dominated.

As for his hockey skills, well, he is no Datsyuk -- hell he is no Cleary, Samuellson, Flip, or any other of our offensive minded top 9. That said he isn't horrible, at least in the sense that he is not a liability when he is on the ice what so ever. In fact he had an assist last game (and that game marked his 5th game in 6 nights) -- definitely says something about his conditioning.

Time and time again his teammates including Lidstrom, Hank, Ozzie, Draper, etc. have gone out of their way to comment on how much they appreciate it when Downey is in the lineup. Some cite his ability to keep the opponents honest, while others say his presence and what he does when he is on the ice allows them to focus on their production.

Something also has to be said about the fans voting him "Player of the Game" overwhelmingly in all three games he has played in the Red WIngs this year. Against Dallas, St. Louis and Colorado Downey dominated the fan voting -- with a record number of fan votes cast for Downey in the last game against Colorado. While people on these boards canive about Downey not deserving a roster spot, it is crystal clear that the overall fan base for the Detroit Red Wings absolutely and unequivocally loves the guy and what he brings to this team.

OPIE POSTED - I am against rough hockey huh, you have been reading this site so long you must also know that I hate Milan Lucic too right?

I don't hate rough hockey nor am I against it.

I am against the idea that an enforcer prevents anything, if you also have followed my posts so closely you would have read the thread 2 weeks ago that I got suspended out off. The Hossa fight thread where I stated I don't care what the name on the back of the Jersey says as long as the wings keep winning.

You probably also missed the part of this last post where I said I wish the Wings had some one that could bring Downey's energy in regular shifts. You know this:

Yup you know so much about me that the conclusion you just drew is so far off based you have no clue what you are talking about!

Good try Skippy!

PLEASE -- I absolutely hate when people use this type of argument. You pick the single player in the league who is great on both the fighting and skill front. You see this all the time on hear when people claim "they have no problem with fighting, as long as the guy is like Brendan Shannahan". It is so annoying -- there is a reason Shanny is going to be in the hall of fame. Yhere isn't a plethora, s*** there isn't any more then 3 guys you could possibly name that fit the bill of Shanny playing right now. The only two that come to mind are Iginla and Lucic.

Opie, I have seen you reply to multiple threads over time on these boards and it is clear you don't like the idea of an enforcer -- even if he is on the 4th line far away from your youtube heroes and their highlight reel goals. I am in no way saying I don't love the s*** outta Hank, Pavel, Marian, Jiri, Cleary, Franzen, Homer and the rest of the crew but it is so ******* far beyond me when individuals like yourself claim there isn't enough room for a guy like Downey.. Give me a ******* break -- what? We don't have enough skill guys in our top 3 lines?

Its bizarre because everyone on the Red Wings loves it when Downey is in the lineup (which he was for 62 games last year, the year we won the cup which shows he certainly didn't hurt the team - hell their record was better last year in the reg. season then it is right now) and it is beyond obvious the fans LOVE him (hence him being the only Red Wing to receive "fan player of the game" honors three games in a row -- or in his case 100% of the time he has been in the lineup) yet you, and a whole group of others on this board seem to know something everyone else doesn't and that is that the Wings don't need him or want him.

Thats all I am going to say about this, I am not even going to get into an extended debate b/c it is like arguing with a wall and quite frankly it isn't how I want to spend my Saturday afternoon - instead I will make this statement -- with statistics to back it up (a practice so many here seem to disregard instead opting to go with their personal opinion stated as fact) and go back to editing the RW video I am putting together for no other reason then personal satisfaction (and youtube glory -- lol.)

[norrisnick 1]

Well, you certainly have ALL the answers don't ya? For some reason 25+ GM's in hockey see things differently than you do. What a bunch of morons.

In terms of the Shelley situation, nice job of twisting around what I was talking about. (are you actually my wife logged in as norrisnick?) The fight COMPLETELY CHANGED THE OUTCOME OF THE GAME. THAT was my point.

Am I wrong? None of this "9 out of 10 GMs agree..." horses***. Am I wrong?

Maybe Shelley shouldn't have fought, right? His team was owning the opposition and they had all the momentum. Way to go, Jody! You gave away the mo' by letting Georges Laraque call the shots. That's something the "fighting can make a difference" crowd just doesn't grasp. Not fighting can do the very same. When a team is getting owned all over the ice and are itching for a fight to try and grab a thread of momentum, why in the world would you ever oblige them? That's beyond stupid. You're giving them what they want and allowing them to dicate the way the game or even series is going to be played. If your opposition is frustrated, keep them frustrated. That's a big problem with fighters that can't do anything else. They feel compelled to fight to prove their worth even when they shouldn't. Shelley should have gotten off the ice, not let Big Georges beat him silly.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

In '06 when Legace dropped the ball, or in '07 when they beat the Flames and Sharks and gave the Cup-winning Ducks all they could handle before bowing out in an incredibly close series?

Or in '04 when they had guys like Mac, Shanny, and Hatcher, and still lost to the clutching and grabbing Flames?

The bottom line is that in all those seasons we didn't win Cups. I'm not saying that having enforcers in the lineup will win us Cups every year, I'm just saying that all 4 Cups came in seasons where we had more toughness than in other seasons where we didn't. Now try disproving that.

Calling our best players Euro Wussies! too far....

I actually thought about using a different word that rhymes, but I decided not to. No surprise that it was the only thing out of my post that you noticed.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Am I wrong? None of this "9 out of 10 GMs agree..." horses***. Am I wrong?

Maybe Shelley shouldn't have fought, right? His team was owning the opposition and they had all the momentum. Way to go, Jody! You gave away the mo' by letting Georges Laraque call the shots. That's something the "fighting can make a difference" crowd just doesn't grasp. Not fighting can do the very same. When a team is getting owned all over the ice and are itching for a fight to try and grab a thread of momentum, why in the world would you ever oblige them? That's beyond stupid. You're giving them what they want and allowing them to dicate the way the game or even series is going to be played. If your opposition is frustrated, keep them frustrated. That's a big problem with fighters that can't do anything else. They feel compelled to fight to prove their worth even when they shouldn't. Shelley should have gotten off the ice, not let Big Georges beat him silly.

If Shelley just got off the ice, Laraque may have grabbed some other player and beat the s*** out of them.

You know nothing about enforcing to be telling anyone what Shelley should and shouldn't have done. This is just the viewpoint of a hockey fan who hates watching fights and enforcers, and believes them to be useless. I don't think anyone in the NHL would agree with your assessment of this issue, or else there wouldn't be any enforcers at all in the game.

[norrisnick 1]

It's great that a moderator, who should be setting an example for others to follow, chimes in with brilliantly worded comments like this. I'm a teacher and I KNOW that students come to this site to read comments. It's great that they get to see comments like this that add so much to the conversation.

:rotflmao:

Wow... I'm honestly stunned. As a teacher I hope you aren't as naive to believe that mentioning dicks is going to somehow irrevocably corrupt some kids. And personally I thought it was a perfect way to illustrate the point at hand when countering a claim that the Wings could be thought of as a bunch of *******. Who cares what others think of you if you're the one that gets handed Lord Stanley's Cup.

[norrisnick 1]

If Shelley just got off the ice, Laraque may have grabbed some other player and beat the s*** out of them.

You know nothing about enforcing to be telling anyone what Shelley should and shouldn't have done. This is just the viewpoint of a hockey fan who hates watching fights and enforcers, and believes them to be useless. I don't think anyone in the NHL would agree with your assessment of this issue, or else there wouldn't be any enforcers at all in the game.

Right. When was the last time a heavyweight grabbed a random player from the opposition and went to town on him?

A. It would mean in all likelihood a 7 minute PP for the Sharks to feast on.

B. It would mean in all likelihood that Laraque gets suspended (ie loses money)

You're completely out of touch with reality, GMR. Shelley fighting in that situation was stupid. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Remember when Laraque challenged McCarty in game 1 of the Finals? Remember when Mac pussed out? That's the smartest play he'd made in years.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Now try disproving that.

For one, not my ******* job. If you've got an argument, support it.

I'm just saying that all 4 Cups came in seasons where we had more toughness than in other seasons where we didn't.

For one: lol @ correlation = causation. But two: Did they? Was the '02 team tougher than the '03 team or the '04? Were Mac and Shanny and Fisch (and Booter ) tougher in some years more than others? I mean, they've been getting older every year, but you cite Mac as a big influence for the '08 team (which I don't necessarily disagree), so it stands to reason he should've been a bigger factor in those years they didn't win.

Ain't saying toughness isn't important, but there are too many other variables in play for you to try and pin their successes or failures on that one factor. This team has had plenty of toughness the last two seasons that wasn't of the enforcer variety -- which matters a whole lot more when it comes to be playoff time.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

For one, not my ******* job. If you've got an argument, support it.

For one: lol @ correlation = causation. But two: Did they? Was the '02 team tougher than the '03 team or the '04? Were Mac and Shanny and Fisch (and Booter ) tougher in some years more than others? I mean, they've been getting older every year, but you cite Mac as a big influence for the '08 team (which I don't necessarily disagree), so it stands to reason he should've been a bigger factor in those years they didn't win.

Ain't saying toughness isn't important, but there are too many other variables in play for you to try and pin their successes or failures on that one factor. This team has had plenty of toughness the last two seasons that wasn't of the enforcer variety -- which matters a whole lot more when it comes to be playoff time.

You totally misread my post. I didn't say that every team we had with an enforcer on it won the Cup, I'm just saying that we never won one without it, and you know what genius, I'm right.

You can't disprove it, because there's nothing to disprove. It's a factual post on my part. Maybe if we won the Cup in one of these seasons when we didn't have toughness, or if we do it this year, then my argument will be wrong. So far, you're wrong.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Right. When was the last time a heavyweight grabbed a random player from the opposition and went to town on him?

A. It would mean in all likelihood a 7 minute PP for the Sharks to feast on.

B. It would mean in all likelihood that Laraque gets suspended (ie loses money)

You're completely out of touch with reality, GMR. Shelley fighting in that situation was stupid. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Remember when Laraque challenged McCarty in game 1 of the Finals? Remember when Mac pussed out? That's the smartest play he'd made in years.

When should Shelley fight, since you seem to think that guys like him shouldn't exist in the league?

[sureWhyNot 19]

Downey ahead by a landslide in fan voting. Going to win for the fourth straight game in a row in which he has dressed.

Never been done by a Red Wing -- Fans love this guy by and large, and there is really no way to sensibly deny that.

[Mors 201]

Downey with a goal and an assist in 4 games now

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

1g 1a 7 PIMs and even in 4 games while averaging just under 6 minutes, yupp he`s terrible!

Edited March 8, 2009 by Detroit # 1 Fan

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

We need Downey to play goalie for us. Maybe he can actually enforce the puck from not going into the net, which Ozzie seems incapable of doing.

[redwingfan19 293]

1g 1a 7 PIMs and even in 4 games while averaging just under 6 minutes, yupp he`s terrible!

think its time for the enforcers bring nothing to the game group to have a nice warm bowl or crow

[sureWhyNot 19]

think its time for the enforcers bring nothing to the game group to have a nice warm bowl or crow

You would this so wouldn't you. They won't - they tend to use the rationale of a ******* retard when arguing against Downey.

The fact he has a goal and assist as well as a epic heavyweight scrap against St. Louis resident tough guy Cam Jannsen on top of being one of 5 guys not with a negative (-) +/- tonight.

But the fact he was even tonight and not a negative will be due to his lack of minutes, yet his 2 points in 3 games will be a fluke. I can see it now.

4 games 4 ******* fan "player of the game votes for #44 Aaron Downey, tongiht with 64% of the total vote.

It's a ******* joke that Osgreat gets coddled like an injured puppy around here and Downey is tagged as "useless" but what can you do -- Assholes and morons exist everywhere, even Red Wing message boards.

[uk_redwing 495]

Downey can do it all. Hit, fight, agitate, enforce and now make plays and score goals

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

You totally misread my post. I didn't say that every team we had with an enforcer on it won the Cup, I'm just saying that we never won one without it, and you know what genius, I'm right.

I guess I was trying to get a meaningful statement out of you where there was none. Thanks for bringing this pointless correlation to my attention.

[lets go pavel 2]

I guess I was trying to get a meaningful statement out of you where there was none. Thanks for bringing this pointless correlation to my attention.

What is meaningless about what he's saying?

His point is that we haven't won without the toughness ... thus it is logical to conclude that if we want to win, we need the toughness.

Throwing pumpkin in a bowl doesn't give you a pumpkin pie, but you sure as hell can't make one without it. Just because toughness doesn't guarantee a Stanley Cup win doesn't mean it isn't a necessary ingredient.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I guess I was trying to get a meaningful statement out of you where there was none. Thanks for bringing this pointless correlation to my attention.

Well, you made a pointless criticism of my post, so I thought I'd respond with a pointless restatement of what I had already said a million times on this forum.

I don't think there's any meaning to these posts about how useless enforcers are.

[Guest micah]

Downey has become one of my favorite players. Lately, he's been the one cog that's made Red Wings games watchable. Dude has done everything that could be expected of him and more with his time. I hope he stays up as long as he's doing his job at such a high level. Sending a guy who's been performing like Downey to the AHL sends the wrong message. People should earn their spots, every night. People should give every game every bit of efort and emotion they have. Downey's been doing that. Not Lidstrom, not Datsyuk, Downey. Buy the guy a steak, Babs.

Now if only he would stop taking so many stupid penalties, that goon <rollseyes>

[Guest micah]

Downey ahead by a landslide in fan voting. Going to win for the fourth straight game in a row in which he has dressed.

Never been done by a Red Wing -- Fans love this guy by and large, and there is really no way to sensibly deny that.

Keep Downey up and the Wings just might start selling out games again -it's clear that there is no single player they'd rather see, and for good reason, he gives every shift 100% and is not above risking a busted jaw for the good of the team. He's more a leader out there than any other player at this point. Keep up the good work, Aaron.

[xBrave_Heartx 0]

GOAL!!!!

[Kp-Wings 3]

Downey scores tonight, yet he's still being ragged on. Yet, whenever Kopecky (whom I will make my case is a lot more useless than Downey) scores a goal, everybody completly overreacts and starts saying ridiculous and off-the-wall comments, like he's a "power forward", or is the next Holmstrom.

This board is unbelievable.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Kp-Wings

[BlueMonk 102]

A lengthy post about Downey/fighting/the Wings.

Even if you don't think dressing a fighter helps your team win hockey games, there's no doubt that hockey fans in Detroit miss the physical violence that characterized some of the earlier editions of Red Wings teams. The fans here love the tough guys. You need look no further than the popularity of Aaron Downey for proof. The guy wins the FSN player of the game voting (admittedly, not the most scientific poll, but still) every game he plays, for playing 5 minutes and whether he fights or not! It isn't like Downey has had a great career with Detroit. He's not like McCarty, who was involved in epic and historic team moments. But the fans are so starved for anything resembling grit that they're completely taken by him.

Toughness is an underappreciated part of what made fans fall in love with those 90s Wings teams. The rivalry with Colorado was special not just because it was about the two best teams of the time, but because it was filled with bad blood and violence. The most memorable game from the rivalry wasn't even a playoff game; it was the regular season bloodbath at the Joe when Mac beat up Lemieux. Some of the criticisms of the current Wings squad are that they're boring to watch because they play without emotion, like robots just executing flawlessly. I think that's an overstatement, because the execution itself is really beautiful. But there is a missing element of aggression, and it diminishes the excitement and hinders the development of new rivalries.

Look at the game tonight: When they were down by 4 or 5 goals, the Wings didn't even get angry. They just skated around with their heads down and went through the motions until the final horn. It could be that this is really the best thing for them the way their roster is constructed. The arguments that they're better off not engaging other teams physically at all because they're not built to handle the rough stuff that will follow may very well be sound. Even so, I find it depressing. As a fan of the Red Wings, I want them to win, and if that means purging their game of retaliatory emotion, I'll take the Stanley Cups. But as a fan of hockey, I think we all lose.

Hockey, at its very best, is a game that rewards the warrior. Being able to hand out and take punishment is part and parcel of your success, and fighting has been inextricably woven into that part of the game. If you want to get near the net, you get the crap kicked out of you. If you can take the beating you get, then you win; if not, you lose. Push too far, or take a cheap shot at someone, you could get punched in the face. Bully the other team, you get the advantage. If they give back just as good as they get, then it evens out.

Intimidation and the threat of getting your ass kicked are always there, even if they aren't front and center. If you can't appreciate the simple beauty and crystal justice in all that, I guess I'm surprised we both like this game. Because that's such a huge part of why I love hockey and if you don't relish that part of it, it's hard for me to understand.