Z and D for the C 712 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Samuelsson -- Gets a decent 2m or so somewhere else. Every slapshot against us from him is top corner. LOL you know it's going to happen too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swedishconnection 36 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Conklin is going to be gone regardless, because Howard is out of minor league options and we all know that the Wings don't like to give up assets without a fight. QUINCEY. Not that it was on the same level as Bryz from the Ducks, but still... he's been killing it on LA. ConkBlock isnt going anywhere. Find me another team in the league paying less for goaltending with more team points on the board. We've rotated more 'Tenders than 2 before. On a seperate note, Anyone else think that Ericsson prove Lilja obsolete? Or am I getting ahead of myself? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Drake_Marcus 890 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 The Wings are looking at two likely paths. Either an acceptable deal for Stuart is found, or Filppula and Lebda (together or separately) are moved with no roster players returning in either scenario. If Flip and Lebda are both dealt, Meech ends up serving double duty as the spare on a 21-man roster. If Stuart is dealt, the Wings carry 22. Franzen and Conklin are gone either way. What he said. The likelihood of Stuart being dealt is pretty low because of the whole organizational loyalty thing. Stuart would have to want to leave or they won't be comfortable asking him to (at least based on case history). Even aside from that the bigger problem is this: Balance. Does Holland keep funneling the money into forwards next season? The Wings are 1st in the NHL in goals scored and have a goals against that fits in with the teams that are missing the playoffs. We'll see if those issues can be fixed in time for a legitimate run through the playoffs. We know the pieces are there and I'm praying the boys put it back together, but subtracting from this year's defense would be a big risk... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dano33 41 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 I agree, in fact I hope they trade Flip - he would fetch quite a bit, and give Holland (depending on the intricacies of the deal) some breathing room. Other then that I pray every night we resign Hossa asap -- I don't care if Franzen stays or goes, actually I agree that I don't want both on the team without a semi major move being made within our forward corps (see Fillipula). Conklin may be gone, but I think the Wings should start thinking of chalking Howard up as a loss and letting him go. There is a reason he has been in GR each year since being dubbed "the next Wings franchise goalie" its because he is streaky at best, and below par (in regards to NHL standards) at worst. Hopefully McCullom (who is now the next heir to the franchise goaltender in Detroit throne) gets to GR next year and shines. Until then, the goalie situation is up in the air somewhat. Trade Kronner too -- I like him, but he is more then expendable. Me too, i wake up every morning hoping to come on here and see 13 "Hossa Signs" threads. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,232 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 If there's anyone expendable on this D, it's Lebda/Meech/Chelios, and none of those guys really make enough money to afford Hossa. Hence moving Stuart (if possible). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) Edit: Double post Edited March 17, 2009 by Datsyerberger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 You all seem to think Hossa will sign at 6.1 more or less for X number of seasons. But look at the cap. If the cap doesn't increase, the Wings have 8.6 million of space. Subtract Hossa at 6.1 and suddenly you have 2.6 million of space left.... to sign 4 more forwards, and a back-up goalie. Meaning no more Hudler, Franzen, Sammy, Kopecky and Conklin. So the question really becomes, what would you rather have? Hossa, or Sammy, Hudler, Kopecky and Franzen. And likely Leino will be gone too, since filling 5 positions with 3 million is more or less the minimum salary. Unless the cap goes up a few million, or Holland moves Kronwall or Stuart, the Wings are gonna have a pretty sorry looking team compared to this year. Why not trade Kronwall or Stuart really? With Ericsson and Meech coming up, why not move an expensive D-guy, to possibly re-sign two of the UFA forwards? Holland is f***ed. Well, actually, it's closer to 9.3 free next year. If Hossa signs for 6.1, that's 3.2 left. Counting that with all the contracts Wings have right now for sure (including the likely permanent callups: Helm, Ericsson, Howard): Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Holmstrom Cleary - Flip - Hossa ? - Helm - ? Maltby - Draper - ? Raffi - Lidstrom Kronwall - Ericsson Lilja - Stuart Lebda Meech Osgood Howard That's 55.614, unless I can't use a calculator right.. say the cap is 57 (it's current 56.7 and it's been suggested it'll go up a nudge this year). That's 1.386 left. In my opinion, Lebda gets traded or something, so that's just a little over 2m. UFAs: Franzen -- Gets a nice payday somewhere. He's earned it. Chelios -- Crumbles into dust. Samuelsson -- Gets a decent 2m or so somewhere else. Every slapshot against us from him is top corner. Kopecky -- Re-signs for around .6 Downey -- Re-signed for league minimum (.475). D-Mac -- Isn't re-signed. Maybe retires, maybe plays in GR. Conklin -- Gets a 1A/1B role somewhere. RFAs: Hudler -- Lands us a 1st and a 3rd, or more. OR Flip gets traded and Hudler gets a similar salary. Leino -- Resigned for .9 1.975 spent there. Couple hundred thousand under the cap. A tight year again, but I think that was expected. There's a possibility Lilja gets traded, that frees up a little space. He's gonna be worth probably the most he'll ever be worth this off-season. If someone minor gets injured, LTIR and call-ups from our massive depth in GR. If someone major gets injured, we just play with 3 and a half lines like we have a few times this season. Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Holmstrom Cleary - Flip - Hossa Leino - Helm - Kopecky Maltby - Draper - Downey (Meech) Raffi - Lidstrom Kronwall - Ericsson Stuart - Lilja? Meech Osgood Howard If you think that isn't depth, you need to be slapped around a bit with a large trout. Just for grins, here's one of Franzen and Hudler (Unless you think they're gonna combine for 6.1m or less, which I doubt) and Sammy kept instead of Hossa. Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Holmstrom Franzen/Hudler - Flip - Sammy (One of Franzen/Hudler around 3, 3.5, Sammy around 2) Leino - Helm - Cleary Maltby - Draper - Kopecky Downey (Meech) Raffi - Lidstrom Kronwall - Ericsson Stuart - Lilja? Meech Osgood Howard Basically, same thing, with .5-1m more cap space left, probably used as wiggle room for callups. So would you rather have Hossa, or one of Franzen/Hudler + Sammy + A bit extra cap space? Given that we've seen how well Kenny handles the cap space situation (we're only sitting within the top 3 in the league again).. well, I know which I want. A side note: I firmly believe Downey is going to be re-signed next year, and not only that but have a permanent roster spot. Holland, Stevie and crew talked him out of retirement this previous off season, and I doubt he went along just to play in GR and get a handful of NHL games. I think he was promised a roster spot for this upcoming year, with the management knowing he'd be a cheap, effective, and POPULAR solution to a bottom line roster spot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Winged_Wheeler 3 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Get rid of Huds, Sammy, and Conks. Hossa and Franzen stay. Lidstrom retires after the 09-10 season Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yzersyukstromberg 0 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) I predict that: - Hossa signs first - Franzen doesn't sign at all - Kopecky re-signs - Leino re-signs - Samuelsson is gone - UFA - Hudler is gone - RFA (but we end up with some solid picks instead) but what hell do I know...? *edit - Hudler RFA ...oops!* Edited March 17, 2009 by Yzersyukstromberg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
11iscoming 1 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 more and more people here suggest to trade kronwall. to this i can only say: NO WAY the wings will part ways with "little nik"!!! the wings (managment, coach) see him as their 2nd best d-man after "big nick", and that is absolutely true.....ok, maybe not all the time this season, cause sometimes he wasn´t at the top of his game ..... but the sum of his skills as a d-man are only 2nd to lidstrom on this team, and when lids will retire, kronwall will become the no.1. he is only 28 now and is only getting better with time. and it is easier to find new players who will score goals for you than a d-man with his skills. maybe no second hossa, but remember we won a cup last year without him (i have to add that nonetheless i would like to keep hossa if possible). and keep in mind the old saying that is still true: offense wins games, defense wins championships. btw i believe leino could fill in better for hossa or franzen than kindl would for kronwall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Winged_Wheeler 3 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Oh yeah, Filppula is not getting traded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RedFX 48 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 I think this will all come down to the confidence Kenny and Babs have in the minor league guys (Helm, Leino, Ericsson, Howard, maybe Kindl or Abdelkader). If Hossa and Franzen stay, then guys like Samuelsson and Hudler will likely be gone. That lost depth would have to be filled by those G.R. guys. We've all seen what Helm and Leino can do. But in an injury-plagued situation, there would have to be enough confidence in guys like Abdelkader, Kindl, or Emmerton to step in and contribute (kind of like Helm and Leino were this year). If the powers at be feel these guys are ready to carry bigger loads, I think you'll see Hossa and/or Franzen back while Huds and Sammy split (and possibly a trade somewhere). If they want to develop them for a few more seasons, I think we lose one or both of the big 2, which lets us keeps someone like Hudler and opens the door for us to go after some role/depth guys in free agency. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rick zombo 3,739 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Whoever takes the "discount" rate will sign first. That's who signs. Whether it be Franzen at 3M or Hossa at 6M. Then, regardless of who signs, the Wings wait and see how the playoffs go (who performs, who doesn't, amidst the group of Filpulla, Lilja, Samuelson, Hudler, Kronwall, Stuart, etc.) THIS will determine what they do with either Hossa or Franzen, depending on who signs. If Flipper puts in a bad playoff effort, then maybe he gets traded. Same for Kronwall. If Sammy stinks it up, they let him walk, same with Lilja. and so on...... I'm sure, regardless of any NTC, that Holland will make the right decisions. Remember, this is a man who bought out McCarty's contract after the lockout. So loyalty, when push comes to shove, is secondary to logic. I doubt there is any other way to speculate at this point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nkuehnl 0 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) Signing Hossa would be a stupid move, in my opinion. How can anyone justify spending almost $33 million on 5 players? That's assuming Hossa is fine with $6 million, too. $33 million locked up on 5 players: Hank, Datsyuk, Hossa, Lidstrom, Rafalski $14.75 million locked up on the next 5 players: Stuart, Kronwall, Filppula, Cleary, Holmstrom $9.23 million on the rest: Draper, Maltby, Helm, Abdelkader, Lilja, Meech, Lebda, Ericsson, Osgood, Howard = ~$57 million for this roster with gaping holes: Hank-Datsyuk-Homer Cleary-Filppula-Hossa ???-Helm-Abdelkader Maltby-Draper-Meech Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart Lilja-Ericsson Lebda Osgood Howard That roster would still have to lose something in order to be cap compliant. The depth is already terrible. A healthy version of that roster makes the playoffs without too much difficulty but injuries could potentially ruin them. If they traded Stuart, they could grab Kopecky and Samuelsson, but then you're looking at a defensive core with no depth at all. Samuelsson-Helm-Kopecky Maltby-Draper-Abdelkader Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Ericsson Lilja-Meech ??? The point is, two of Franzen/Hudler/Leino at $6m-$7m is much more important to this team than a $6m-$7m Hossa. No team can't afford to pay for 5 superstars without suffering elsewhere. edit: especially when they've already got 2 questionably high contracts (Stuart, Filppula) and below-league-average goaltending. Edited March 17, 2009 by nkuehnl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest tini Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Hossa. I don't see Franzen with the Red Wings next season. i agree. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shaman 713 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) Some predictions of my own Franzen is gone he will want 5 million Hossa stays, takes a Z like contract (cap hit around 6) Sammy takes a 1 million contract to stay with a good team We trade Meech for Quincey, cause we dont need a guy who blows in 2 different positions... Hulder isn't a UFA so the guy who says he is is called out for lack of wings knowledge (self fulfilling prophecy), So he either stays or we get something good in return. Howard is gone, he has not shown the wings organization he can cut it as a top AHL goalie, let alone future #1 in Detroit. Edited March 17, 2009 by Shaman464 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown_Ryan 122 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 I hope this isnt considered "Off-Topic". But.. I have to ask. Under the current CBA, Is there a "Luxury Tax" or "Cap Penalty" for going over the cap? I searched a few places but could get a definite answer..... It appears that the Rangers are over the cap and have a Cap Penalty of 700,000. Just confused about why they have a Cap Penalty imposed when your not supposed to be over.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yzersyukstromberg 0 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 I hope this isnt considered "Off-Topic". But.. I have to ask. Under the current CBA, Is there a "Luxury Tax" or "Cap Penalty" for going over the cap? I searched a few places but could get a definite answer..... It appears that the Rangers are over the cap and have a Cap Penalty of 700,000. Just confused about why they have a Cap Penalty imposed when your not supposed to be over.... No, the current salary cap is a 'hard cap', so you must be cap compliant every single day of the season. During the pre-season and off season, you can be up to 10% over the cap (approx), but you must become cap compliant by the first day of the regular season, and remain that way each day throughout the season. That's information I heard directly from Ken Holland the other day at the Red Wings' Corporate Seminar. Not sure what the deal is with the Rangers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yzersyukstromberg 0 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Some predictions of my own Franzen is gone he will want 5 million Hossa stays, takes a Z like contract (cap hit around 6) Sammy takes a 1 million contract to stay with a good team We trade Meech for Quincey, cause we dont need a guy who blows in 2 different positions... Hulder isn't a UFA so the guy who says he is is called out for lack of wings knowledge (self fulfilling prophecy), So he either stays or we get something good in return. Howard is gone, he has not shown the wings organization he can cut it as a top AHL goalie, let alone future #1 in Detroit. I'm not sure if I'm the guy with the 'lack of Wings knowledge', but in case you're basing that on my type-o regarding Hudler's UFA/RFA status, I'm completely aware that Hudler is an RFA after this season. I was typing a little too quickly for my own good, and noticed the error this morning when I was re-reading the thread (see edit). I'd actually consider myself to be quite knowledgeable when it comes to the Wings, but when it comes to this (signing free agent), nobody really knows what's going to happen. That's all I was getting at when I said 'what the hell do I know anyways'. However...if that comment wasn't directed at me, you can rewind back to the beginning and pretend I never posted in the first place. Cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Franzen 6 years cap hit 3.3. I wish....but I don't see it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 I expected a signing by now -- and am wondering if the delay is because of the Wings goaltending. How confident can Holland be right now with Osgood, Conklin and Howard? Ideally, we would have Osgood and Howard in net next year, and retain as many free agents as possible - but Holland has to be rethinking that, in light of Osgood's and Howard's less than stellar play this year. Perhaps the Wings end up losing a lot more forwards, but end up snagging a goalie? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeytown_Ryan 122 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 (edited) No, the current salary cap is a 'hard cap', so you must be cap compliant every single day of the season. During the pre-season and off season, you can be up to 10% over the cap (approx), but you must become cap compliant by the first day of the regular season, and remain that way each day throughout the season. That's information I heard directly from Ken Holland the other day at the Red Wings' Corporate Seminar. Not sure what the deal is with the Rangers. Thank you Sir!! Edited March 17, 2009 by Hockeytown_Ryan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsMyWings13 4 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 I see Hossa signing only because I don't think Franzen will take a big enough hometown discount. I don't see him getting any less than 4 million a year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Datsyerberger 279 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Signing Hossa would be a stupid move, in my opinion. How can anyone justify spending almost $33 million on 5 players? That's assuming Hossa is fine with $6 million, too. $33 million locked up on 5 players: Hank, Datsyuk, Hossa, Lidstrom, Rafalski $14.75 million locked up on the next 5 players: Stuart, Kronwall, Filppula, Cleary, Holmstrom $9.23 million on the rest: Draper, Maltby, Helm, Abdelkader, Lilja, Meech, Lebda, Ericsson, Osgood, Howard = ~$57 million for this roster with gaping holes: *snip for length* Refer to my post earlier in this thread. Furthermore, regarding the bolded, I actually did a write-up earlier in the year in another thread regarding this particular bit. After research, I found out that the most successful teams in the NHL currently (San Jose, Boston, Detroit, Calgary, Washington, a handful of other playoff teams) all spend around 32-36 million on their top 5 players, with the 33-34 mil Detroit would spend on those 5 right in the midrange of the most successful teams. The primary differences between Detroit and the other teams which do this are the following: 1. Most teams top 5 contracts include a goalie. That's never been the modus operandi for Detroit, as we know. 2. Due to the discounts players take in Detroit, their top 5 is by far the most talented in the NHL (#1 d-man, top 10 d-man, arguably #1 forward, top 10 foward, top 20 forward). Now, on further examination, I found spending between 12-15 million on the next 5 is also within the norm for the most successful teams, and that the remaining salary distributed to fill in the bottom 6/holes was around 10 million, give or take a couple.. as, agan, is showed by your example. Thus, it would seem that the formula to success in the cap era is having a "key" top 5 (6 mil + players), a "core" second 5 (2-5 mil players), and then reasonably fill out the holes with roleplayers and cheap young talent. The Wings would not be doing anything out of the norm with this, but rather, continuing the most successful practice. TL;DR: In Kenny We Trust. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frozen-Man 144 Report post Posted March 17, 2009 Refer to my post earlier in this thread. Furthermore, regarding the bolded, I actually did a write-up earlier in the year in another thread regarding this particular bit. After research, I found out that the most successful teams in the NHL currently (San Jose, Boston, Detroit, Calgary, Washington, a handful of other playoff teams) all spend around 32-36 million on their top 5 players, with the 33-34 mil Detroit would spend on those 5 right in the midrange of the most successful teams. The primary differences between Detroit and the other teams which do this are the following: 1. Most teams top 5 contracts include a goalie. That's never been the modus operandi for Detroit, as we know. 2. Due to the discounts players take in Detroit, their top 5 is by far the most talented in the NHL (#1 d-man, top 10 d-man, arguably #1 forward, top 10 foward, top 20 forward). Now, on further examination, I found spending between 12-15 million on the next 5 is also within the norm for the most successful teams, and that the remaining salary distributed to fill in the bottom 6/holes was around 10 million, give or take a couple.. as, agan, is showed by your example. Thus, it would seem that the formula to success in the cap era is having a "key" top 5 (6 mil + players), a "core" second 5 (2-5 mil players), and then reasonably fill out the holes with roleplayers and cheap young talent. The Wings would not be doing anything out of the norm with this, but rather, continuing the most successful practice. TL;DR: In Kenny We Trust. Excellent post as usual. Thanks for the info on the salary breakdown. I wasn't sure how most teams distributed salary. :clap: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
