Women -- In the Upper Tiers of Hockey?

[lets go pavel 2]

Even if you were to take (on average) 3 women players from the top 10 women's hockey nation's national teams, you would end up with 30 players with possible NHL talent/size. And even if only 1/3 of those made it past the AHL, you'd still have 10 women in hockey, with 1-2 of those with star/upper tier level potential. While it'd be a small start, it'd certainly be a very significant inroad into increased attention to the scouting and training of women's hockey players, and eventually you could end up with a small but significant amount of women hockey players in the NHL--say 5%, which would be around what, 35 players? That's more overall representation than some significant hockey nations have in the NHL.

Here's the difficulty I see ... if you take the top players from the women's team, they are players used to playing on the top lines. They are scorers and playmakers. Can they compete with the Datsyuks, Zetterbergs, Hossas, etc of the league? If not, they are likely fighting for 3rd or 4th line time, and this means a different skill set. Now you're talking about defensive specialists, PKers, checkers, grit, enforcers. While some of the female players may have more skill than a Draper or a Maltby, can they fill their specific roles as well?

[Datsyerberger 279]

Women are no good at hockey.

I know I'll get beat over the head with that, and it IS a little sexist, but I watched the women's Olympic hockey a few years ago and it aws horrible. Slow, non-physical, disorganized. They play like a pee wee club.

Traditionally, women were considered no good at any sport/physical activity.. or even something as dumbly simple as shooting a gun, for that matter.

How much of that is a lack of potential to be "good at hockey" as opposed to a relative amount of training?

[OsGOD 3]

No offense to any ladys out there but I really don't think they are physically built to the same strenghts as a male... Granted some of those guys in the NHL aren't the strongest but there does need to be exceptionally more training involved to get a womens body up to the same as a mans... isn't there?

Women can play hockey and other sports men do, I just don't think it should be on the same rink...

Can you imagine a female going up against a defensive end in football... yeah i think not, she would get crushed

Baseball basketball and soccer might be okay but physical sports (and i mean very physically demanding sports) should be left seperate)

Edited April 1, 2009 by OsGOD

[zaxx 0]

Im sorry, but no.

If I was playing hockey and went to check a guy then realised it was a woman it would definately feel wrong to even push her.

Sports should stay gender specific, just like public toilets and changing rooms should.

I have played against women in Pee-wee, Bantam, and Midget. It is pathetic to admit to but, during pre game preparations we all joked about how crappy it would be to get hit by the girls on the other team and how we better not hit them since you cannot hit a girl. Then we would also joke about how we should hit them harder so they do not come out again next time. Imagine thinking a girl could play a mans game. We all learned something...

We went out and in the heat of battle you do not think about who you are about to hit, or their gender. You knock the person off the puck and try to help your team. I nailed several girls, was knocked on my ass by others, and fought some good battles for the puck. Women may be different then men but many could kick your ass on the ice in all aspects.

[zaxx 0]

My feeling on it is that lower tiers, college, and national hockey should remain separated.. this allows the average woman to compete within their size range and overall ability, and the same for men. The NHL (and its farm leagues) would become the melting pot for the absolute top tier for both genders (where you would possibly see a handful of women exceptional in talent and stature)

I like and do not like this. The reason being that men's leagues provide more competition and room for development. In my local town growing up we never allowed women to play hockey. They had to play ringette. My sister hated that so she tried out for the pee-wee team and held her own. Now they allow girls on the any team in any level. They also have all women teams for the girls who would rather not play with the boys.

[Frozen-Man 144]

If anything, what I would see is something like with exceptional players in the 80s and early 90s.. even a minor hit on them would be a possible cause for retribution (a la Gretzky).

Yeah I agree and I guess that would be some of my reservation as well, you now have a whole group who is protected i.e. can't even get a minor hit without retribution but they would be protected not because they are Gretzky type exceptional players but because of their gender. I think it would be really hard to have a whole group who have basically a separate set of rules (regarding hits, what is acceptable during scrums, and even the questionably border line penalty worthy actions like little crosschecks, slashes, boarding etc. - and the rule disparity would go both ways because you can't exactly just allow the women to do those things to the men and then the men just skate around ignoring them) and I don't see how players ever get past the point that they would always be treated differently by each other.

As I do admit, the greatest challenges to overcome are by far societal and gender mentality barriers, and the fact that the NHL is a very physical sport (not something I want to change).

Yeah I agree and I am just not sure that society will ever get past it because of the physicality of the sport - for example the women in Olympic hockey wear full cages while the men are not even required to wear visors - I just think people (at least for a long time) will not be willing to watch a woman taken off the ice with a towel under her face because it has been so bloodied up by a puck, stick, check, or fist. I agree women have many skills that are an absolute must for a hockey player (some maybe better than the men) but I don't think they can compete from a physical standpoint. Take Hudler for example, the biggest knock on him in the past and probably biggest concern in the future (even though he has taken huge steps to disprove it) is his size yet he is 5' 9" and weighs 178 lbs. while Cammi Granato is 5' 7" and when playing weighed 141 lbs. No 141 lbs guy would get noticed by an NHL GM (in fact Wikipedia - if true I couldn't find the info anywhere else - says that Brian Gionta is the smallest player in the NHL at 5' 7" but he weighs 34 lbs more). The average height of NHL players is 6' 1" and the average weight is 204 lbs. - I just don't think that there are many GM's that would consider picking up a 141 lbs player and she was one of the best ever (in my opinion) of her gender.

[McCartyFanForLife 17]

My feeling on it is that lower tiers, college, and national hockey should remain separated.. this allows the average woman to compete within their size range and overall ability, and the same for men. The NHL (and its farm leagues) would become the melting pot for the absolute top tier for both genders (where you would possibly see a handful of women exceptional in talent and stature)

Most professional women hockey teams would lose to most mens college teams in a 7 game series. That's just the way it is. Women would get absolutely destroyed in the NHL whether it is a goaltender, forward, or defensemen. And before someone responds with a rant about sexism, my wife said that.

[zaxx 0]

No offense to any ladys out there but I really don't think they are physically built to the same strenghts as a male... Granted some of those guys in the NHL aren't the strongest but there does need to be exceptionally more training involved to get a womens body up to the same as a mans... isn't there?

Women can play hockey and other sports men do, I just don't think it should be on the same rink...

Can you imagine a female going up against a defensive end in football... yeah i think not, she would get crushed

Baseball basketball and soccer might be okay but physical sports (and i mean very physically demanding sports) should be left seperate)

There will come a day when a women hockey player competes in the NHL. She will have to be better and stronger then most men in the league in order to do it but it will open doors.

As a fan I would want my NHL team to field the best team possible. If that means dressing a person with boobs then go for it. I am surprised it has not happened already.

Hayley Wickenheiser has been playing professional hockey in Europe for many years now and has been successful. She plays in the mens league. She is one tough cookie and I would bet dollars to dimes that she could kick the crap out of many people on this board.

There have been women hockey players who could have competed in the NHL and I think we have missed some exciting hockey by not having it happen already.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I like and do not like this. The reason being that men's leagues provide more competition and room for development. In my local town growing up we never allowed women to play hockey. They had to play ringette. My sister hated that so she tried out for the pee-wee team and held her own. Now they allow girls on the any team in any level. They also have all women teams for the girls who would rather not play with the boys.

But no all men's teams for the boys who would rather not play with the girls?

[55fan 5,133]

When I was a girl (back in the stone age) I wanted so badly to play hockey. I had my heart set on being a goalie in the NHL. I was sent to figure skating.

I think that girls should be allowed in for as long as they can keep up. If that means that they need their own league in high school, college or semi-pro, then so be it. If they can stick it out and compete on a fair sheet of ice (like a fair playing field), then they should not be excluded on the basis of their gender. There should be no special considerations. No special rules. They should be competing as players.

I have to ask, though. Those of you who are against the idea: If the Wings picked up a female player who was good enough to play with the team and brought skills to the table better than those she beat out, would you still watch, and if so, would you root for her?

[seeinred 1,488]

There will come a day when a women hockey player competes in the NHL. She will have to be better and stronger then most men in the league in order to do it but it will open doors.

As a fan I would want my NHL team to field the best team possible. If that means dressing a person with boobs then go for it. I am surprised it has not happened already.

Hayley Wickenheiser has been playing professional hockey in Europe for many years now and has been successful. She plays in the mens league. She is one tough cookie and I would bet dollars to dimes that she could kick the crap out of many people on this board.

There have been women hockey players who could have competed in the NHL and I think we have missed some exciting hockey by not having it happen already.

2nd division in Finland and 3rd division in Sweden is not "successful." I'm not exaggerating when I say I could go do that right now.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Hayley Wickenheiser has been playing professional hockey in Europe for many years now and has been successful. She plays in the mens league. She is one tough cookie and I would bet dollars to dimes that she could kick the crap out of many people on this board.

That is a horrible argument and rationale, but one that is often used. I would hope that a professional would be able to "kick the crap" out of people who are not professionals and most are only amateurs in the sense that they played city league (or the rough equivalent) all their life. Great comparison one of the best female hockey players in the world verses normal average males. By that rationale Kopecky is a hockey god because compared to me the guy has unworldly and incomparable talent. By the way compared to my 4 year old nephew the Wings should sign me to a 10 year $100M contract. IF you want to make comparison try making a realistic comparison - professional athlete verses professional athlete.

[zaxx 0]

But no all men's teams for the boys who would rather not play with the girls?

The boys have 3 hockey teams for every age group. The women have 1 team and it is composed of several age groups. There are not enough women to create as many teams as the boys. This means the boys have many opportunities to play while the girls can only play in one place. In order to give the girls a chance to train and grow their talents they can try out for the boys teams (the same as the boys do).

It is not even fair to call it a boys team. It is a pee-wee, bantam, or whatever team. You are permitted to field girls or boys it does not matter. The womens team does not belong to any league since they have many different aged girls. Since many girls want to play hockey (who doesn't when they are young) but they are not dedicated enough to play competitive, there is a rec team in place for them. I am sure if you were a boy and you wanted to play on the girls team you could, and I think it has even happened.

[timothy1997 0]

i remember in gym class playing floor hockey. You couldn't score a goal for your team without a girl touching the puck first. So we would pass it to the girl early and then score the goal. I bet NHL can adapt similar rules.

[zaxx 0]

2nd division in Finland and 3rd division in Sweden is not "successful." I'm not exaggerating when I say I could go do that right now.

You are exaggerating, and she has done very well for herself. I will concede that the 2nd and 3rd division levels are not NHL (or even ECHL) caliber but she is the first. She is opening doors to the next star.

[zaxx 0]

That is a horrible argument and rationale, but one that is often used. I would hope that a professional would be able to "kick the crap" out of people who are not professionals and most are only amateurs in the sense that they played city league (or the rough equivalent) all their life. Great comparison one of the best female hockey players in the world verses normal average males. By that rationale Kopecky is a hockey god because compared to me the guy has unworldly and incomparable talent. By the way compared to my 4 year old nephew the Wings should sign me to a 10 year $100M contract. IF you want to make comparison try making a realistic comparison - professional athlete verses professional athlete.

I was making a point for the people who are arguing that women could never handle the rough play of the NHL. Women can take and handle much more pain and abuse then men. On average they do not have the same muscular density as men but they can still dish out their fair share.

If you want a comparison against a professional athlete then fine I could say Hayley could beat down on player X but it would be just as foolish. Until the day it happens you will never believe. If a girl came up and could shoot, score, dig in the corners and do so better then others, I would want her on my team.

[seeinred 1,488]

You are exaggerating, and she has done very well for herself. I will concede that the 2nd and 3rd division levels are not NHL (or even ECHL) caliber but she is the first. She is opening doors to the next star.

Playing in garbage leagues isn't opening any doors. If she's the best that women have, and she can't even play an elite European game, you can forget any shot at the more physical and less open North American game.

[zaxx 0]

Playing in garbage leagues isn't opening any doors. If she's the best that women have, and she can't even play an elite European game, you can forget any shot at the more physical and less open North American game.

Slow down a little. She only played a high level of competitive hockey (with the boys) until she was 13 years old (or something like that). Imagine if she had been given the same chances as the boys. She would have been developing and growing as a player and likely would be playing at an even higher level of hockey.

My big question for the forums is how crazy will it be when the NHL has to deal with its first pregnant player. lol

[seeinred 1,488]

My big question for the forums is how crazy will it be when the NHL has to deal with its first pregnant player. lol

I hope teams get to put the player on LTIR when that happens.

[Frozen-Man 144]

When I was a girl (back in the stone age) I wanted so badly to play hockey. I had my heart set on being a goalie in the NHL. I was sent to figure skating.

I think that girls should be allowed in for as long as they can keep up. If that means that they need their own league in high school, college or semi-pro, then so be it. If they can stick it out and compete on a fair sheet of ice (like a fair playing field), then they should not be excluded on the basis of their gender. There should be no special considerations. No special rules. They should be competing as players.

I have to ask, though. Those of you who are against the idea: If the Wings picked up a female player who was good enough to play with the team and brought skills to the table better than those she beat out, would you still watch, and if so, would you root for her?

I think that sucks - girls should always have a place and a league to play hockey. I actually think that there is less problem with the coed in lower (especially city) leagues because the game is not near as physical. Several teams I have played on have had girls on the team and many of them were much better in many aspects of hockey than I was. I also agree that women should be allowed in as long as they can keep up. I have no problem with a woman trying out for the NHL and would root for a woman if she were good enough to play for the Wings.

My contention is two fold. First, I don't think that the "damage" done to male hockey players, which nobody likes people are ok with, would translate for women. As I said in previous posts people react very differently to seeing a man with a bloody face than they do a woman (think about how often in movies they make the guy that they want you to hate abusive to women). Second, I don't think that at the extreme level, best of the best, NHL women in general can compete. Again, look at my previous posts, the average NHL player is 6'1" 204 lbs. I just don't think someone 140-150 lbs can compete with that. I mean just imagine if Hudler was 35 lbs lighter.

To me it's not that women should not be allowed in but I don't think that if you had a guy that was the size, strength of most female hockey players he would get a sniff at the NHL either. Someone posted earlier about Hayley Wickenheiser playing pro in Europe but there is a reason she is not pro here and I think the majority of the reason is that this is where the biggest, baddest players come to play and the league is set up to be much more physical than it is over there.

[Frozen-Man 144]

I was making a point for the people who are arguing that women could never handle the rough play of the NHL. Women can take and handle much more pain and abuse then men. On average they do not have the same muscular density as men but they can still dish out their fair share.

Yeah but you made your point by comparing her to average joes. You didn't say she could be the crap out of any player in the NHL where she would have to compete, you used anonymous random people. Very few here could handle the NHL either - hence the reason we are posting on a forum about the Wings rather than playing for them.

If you want a comparison against a professional athlete then fine I could say Hayley could beat down on player X but it would be just as foolish. Until the day it happens you will never believe. If a girl came up and could shoot, score, dig in the corners and do so better then others, I would want her on my team.

Yeah but the important part of that statement is IF. That is the point, IF a girl could score 1,000 points in a season I would want her too, I just don't think that physically it will happen. This is not an anti-girl - I just don't think that there happen to be any right now who can compete day in day out at the NHL level.

[Frozen-Man 144]

You are exaggerating, and she has done very well for herself. I will concede that the 2nd and 3rd division levels are not NHL (or even ECHL) caliber but she is the first. She is opening doors to the next star.

Yeah but the point is she is playing in a much, much less physical league where few if any of the players will make it to the NHL other than the 15-18 year old phenoms.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Slow down a little. She only played a high level of competitive hockey (with the boys) until she was 13 years old (or something like that). Imagine if she had been given the same chances as the boys. She would have been developing and growing as a player and likely would be playing at an even higher level of hockey.

My big question for the forums is how crazy will it be when the NHL has to deal with its first pregnant player. lol

Didn't the Leafs already have that problem when Kyle Wellwood ballooned up.

[uk_redwing 495]

It would make more sense for other, less physical sports to do this before hockey does.

For instance, I can envision something like this possibly happening in basketball, soccer and baseball with much less disastrous consequences. Even then, there would still be some unfomfortable feelings in the locker room. Boys will be boys.

Hell no. Football is a contact sport, and over here its a very physical game!

[Inultus 12]

If the Wings picked up a female player who was good enough to play with the team and brought skills to the table better than those she beat out, would you still watch, and if so, would you root for her?

Not only would I root for her, but I would dream about having sex with her on a nightly basis.

I've played on several teams where we had girls. The first one we had a girl goalie, she isn't that great, but I certainly didn't have a problem with her playing and we didn't ease up on the shots because she was a girl either.

A couple seasons ago I had 2 young girls on the team. They were both very fast, good with the puck, good passers. Better players than me except for one thing:

They were quite easy to knock off the puck. When I played against them, I only needed to use one arm to knock them off the puck because they just didn't have the upper body strength to match even the smaller guys.

I will admit on went easy on them when getting physical with them, but that is mainly because I knew they were weak. If they had been beastly Amazon women I would have played them just as hard as anyone else.

If women have the talent, of course they should play.