Women -- In the Upper Tiers of Hockey?

[MacK_Attack 108]

I know that the Canadian Olympic Women's team plays against midget AAA teams to get ready for the Olympics and other big tournaments, so that kind of gives you an idea of the calibre of the top women's players.

[Carman 387]

I had a couple friends on the girls U-17 national team. If we played roller hockey they were just as talented with the puck, and had plenty hockey intelligence; but they just aren't strong enough to work in the corners or keep up with the physical game on the open ice. There is a reason pretty much every major sport separates sexes. It's not a matter of being fair or sexist it's just a matter of biology.

[zaxx 0]

Not only would I root for her, but I would dream about having sex with her on a nightly basis.

I love this comment, so funny!

The rest of your comment I agree with entirely. An NHL team should field the most talented team, if that means some players are female and some are male, so sure why not.

Wasn't it just a few years ago that people said Europeans are too soft to play in the NHL, and then Europeans can play but would never have enough heart and determination to captain a team to Lord Stanley. It will happen some day.

[zaxx 0]

I had a couple friends on the girls U-17 national team. If we played roller hockey they were just as talented with the puck, and had plenty hockey intelligence; but they just aren't strong enough to work in the corners or keep up with the physical game on the open ice. There is a reason pretty much every major sport separates sexes. It's not a matter of being fair or sexist it's just a matter of biology.

Gretzky was small, could not work the corners and the physical play was something he was never able to master. However his hockey sense, play making and control allowed him to have a half decent career.

[Datsyerberger 279]

I have to ask, though. Those of you who are against the idea: If the Wings picked up a female player who was good enough to play with the team and brought skills to the table better than those she beat out, would you still watch, and if so, would you root for her?

Root for her? Hell, I'd probably want to propose to her! XD

[j.hoop 64]

I think one thing you touched on in your first two concessions but that deserves more fleshing out is the fact that people in general don't mind near as much seeing a guy take a puck/stick in the face, or bloodied up from a bad check into the boards, or hurt from a cheap hit, or dropping the gloves and punching and getting punched by another guy. I think that this is the dynamic that would keep this from ever working. Take fighting for example (which would cause the most outrage), can you imagine Colton Orr or Jared Boll dropping their gloves, pushing back their sleeves, circling around and then proceeding to punch a woman in the face. In the first place I can't see either of these guys doing that (which would create its own parity because you would have a group that could act without fear of retribution - unless you carried a male and female enforcer which I doubt most GM's would want to do) but if they did I for one, like most people, would not want to watch it. The outrage would be huge and it would be a PR nightmare because of the moral outrage it would create. It seems to me that unless the NHL totally bans fighting this alone will keep the NHL from going coed (I guess they could make rules about different genders fighting but that would never work to have some people on the ice that can fight each other and some that cannot). However, for the sake of argument assuming that fighting is not an issue I still think that society as a whole, while not minding seeing this:

how sick would that be

[Datsyerberger 279]

As I said earlier in the thread, there's not much of a debate for the biological differences.. only women with a combination of exceptional size and exceptional talent would probably be able to make it -- That, and they have to have equal training, which is not anywhere near the case right now. I could see those occasional women slipping in. (Imagine some 6'3" Russian woman with Datsyuk skills, haha)

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Most professional women hockey teams would lose to most mens college teams in a 7 game series. That's just the way it is. Women would get absolutely destroyed in the NHL whether it is a goaltender, forward, or defensemen. And before someone responds with a rant about sexism, my wife said that.

That's okay I'm a women (obiously from the username) and I agree with your wife.

[j.hoop 64]

i think a great woman goalie is not that far fetched, but forwards and defense is another thing. that said, have you ever seen womens roller derby? i go watch the local teams sometimes, some of those brutes are well built and can knock you out.

i think if a girl wants to play nhl level, chances are she wouldnt wanna be thought of as "just a girl" and would be willing to take the abuse. having a frame and weight built for hockey definitely isnt impossible. and lastly, if she wants to step out there and fight and check, i have no problem seeing her get f***ed up and bloody.

[Carman 387]

Gretzky was small, could not work the corners and the physical play was something he was never able to master. However his hockey sense, play making and control allowed him to have a half decent career.

True enough, but he could take hits. Also notice there aren't many big hits in women leagues. The women body is much more prone to concussions and just isn't made to take hits like gretzky took. There would be many many more injuries if women were to play like this.

[Datsyerberger 279]

i think a great woman goalie is not that far fetched, but forwards and defense is another thing. that said, have you ever seen womens roller derby? i go watch the local teams sometimes, some of those brutes are well built and can knock you out.

i think if a girl wants to play nhl level, chances are she wouldnt wanna be thought of as "just a girl" and would be willing to take the abuse. having a frame and weight built for hockey definitely isnt impossible. and lastly, if she wants to step out there and fight and check, i have no problem seeing her get f***ed up and bloody.

In my experience, the rare occasions in which women physically fight tend to be a lot more brutal in nature than usual male fights. I think that's largely an instinctive/biological thing, where men scuff and rough eachother up a bit for mating rights, who gets to eat first, or just for fun... and thus, both are trying to minimize long term damage. From an instinctive point of view, when women fight, its usually in defense of family/offspring/something very primitive, and because of that, it's quite fierce and primal.

Guys usually just wrestle and pound on eachother with fists a bit. Gals do that, involve nails, hair pulling, objects, teeth.. ANYTHING.. that's my experience having observed female fights, anyhow. I'll fight an angry dude over an angry woman any day.

Hell, I remember this one time back in high school, huge jock dude pissed off this one gal.. she wasn't particularly large in stature or anything, fairly slender, though she was decently built.. she might've been a basketball player, don't remember for sure. But anyhow, he pisses her off, and she launches over a cafeteria table, tipping it over in the process, and just assaults the s*** out of him.. he wasn't holding back any punches, but you could tell he was overwhelmed with the sheer ferocity of it. It's really not the sort of thing you usually see in a male brawl. He left that fight with a black eye, several bruises, a busted lip, and a bloodied nose.. I think she had a single bruise on her cheek. That's really all he could manage to land.

Women who feel cornered to the point of needing to fight are $#@! dangerous.

[zaxx 0]

True enough, but he could take hits. Also notice there aren't many big hits in women leagues. The women body is much more prone to concussions and just isn't made to take hits like gretzky took. There would be many many more injuries if women were to play like this.

Ture enough hits hurt sometimes and any player can (and will) be hurt at some time during their careers. Lindross was more prone to concussions then others but he was in the NHL. Generalizations that are used to define everyone wind up defining nothing.

A superior athletic women could (and someday will) compete in the NHL, taking and receiving the massive body checks and likely at some point dropping the gloves. You may not want to see a strong women competing with your male heroes but this is something you will have to deal with someday.

Lastly your comment about women's bodies being much more prone to concussions is a perversion of the facts.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/02/...in3321766.shtml

Studies found that in girls sports concussions are more likely. However the researchers involved in the study point out that women are more honest about their injuries and do not traditionally have the same level of muscular tone in the neck. This implies that if a women were to exercise her neck muscles more she would be less prone to injury. Then it becomes a nature vs nurture debate (one that should not be on these forums).

The fact is that someday a women will rise to the highest levels of the hockey elite and find herself on an NHL squad.

[Datsyerberger 279]

The fact is that someday a women will rise to the highest levels of the hockey elite and find herself on an NHL squad.

In before the "Cindy Crosby" jokes.

[McCartyFanForLife 17]

A baby step would be to allow full fledged hitting in women's hockey in international play (or all play for that matter).

[Guest Shoreline]

If women think they can compete at the NHL level, I'm all for it. But I don't see the rationality of it, since it means either additional severe injuries for them, or players simply playing NHL hockey differently, both of which is a rather adversarial affect. This is why women aren't in the NFL too.

It ain't a politically correct statement but it's obvious women and men compete at hockey (and most sports in general) on different levels and it's due to human physiology.

[GoalieManPat 1,007]

The fact is that someday a women will rise to the highest levels of the hockey elite and find herself on an NHL squad.

I'm sorry to sound like an ass but this will never happen. You might see a woman get in an NHL game again in the pre-season or a promotional stunt the first/last couple games of as season but no woman will make a full time career in the NHL. A GM will never open up there club to the possible distractions and bad press if something happens to her due to the physicality of the NHL game.

As stated earlier in this thread it would also create an unfair disadvantage for the opposing players as 98% of the league would play the woman different. In the age where everything is captured on video nobody wants to be that guy on tape decking a woman or crushing her in the corners.

If some woman were able to prove me wrong someday and prove that they can keep up with the physical play I would be 100% behind them and the accomplishment. The problem is the league would never open up the chance to have a video of Pronger elbowing a woman in the face all over the news. It would be bad business.

[egroen 384]

In my experience, the rare occasions in which women physically fight tend to be a lot more brutal in nature than usual male fights. I think that's largely an instinctive/biological thing, where men scuff and rough eachother up a bit for mating rights, who gets to eat first, or just for fun... and thus, both are trying to minimize long term damage. From an instinctive point of view, when women fight, its usually in defense of family/offspring/something very primitive, and because of that, it's quite fierce and primal.

Guys usually just wrestle and pound on eachother with fists a bit. Gals do that, involve nails, hair pulling, objects, teeth.. ANYTHING.. that's my experience having observed female fights, anyhow. I'll fight an angry dude over an angry woman any day.

Hell, I remember this one time back in high school, huge jock dude pissed off this one gal.. she wasn't particularly large in stature or anything, fairly slender, though she was decently built.. she might've been a basketball player, don't remember for sure. But anyhow, he pisses her off, and she launches over a cafeteria table, tipping it over in the process, and just assaults the s*** out of him.. he wasn't holding back any punches, but you could tell he was overwhelmed with the sheer ferocity of it. It's really not the sort of thing you usually see in a male brawl. He left that fight with a black eye, several bruises, a busted lip, and a bloodied nose.. I think she had a single bruise on her cheek. That's really all he could manage to land.

Women who feel cornered to the point of needing to fight are $#@! dangerous.

Interesting observations --

I played on some club water polo teams in college, and let me tell you, women are nasty. If you "wrong" them they are out for your blood, and in between quarters all the women would talk about who they were going to "get" from the other team, and especially the girl-on-girl violence could get out of hand.

My additional theory to yours, is that most women today are not brought up in contact sports like guys are. Guys learn penalties, rough play and even the occassional fight is part of the game, at an early age. They can be in the thick of it, but leave it behind once it is over. Women are not exposed to that element as much, and when they are thrust into it later in life, it is personal. Real personal.

Of course that might change if more girls grow up playing contact sports and learn to handle it within the context of the sport and game.

Or can they? I have found, in general, women in the work place hold onto disputes and altercations longer than men as well. They just do not seem to be able to "move on" as easily from trespasses as men seem to be able to.

[OsGOD 3]

I have to ask, though. Those of you who are against the idea: If the Wings picked up a female player who was good enough to play with the team and brought skills to the table better than those she beat out, would you still watch, and if so, would you root for her?

I am not against a Female playing in the big leagues... I was all about Rheaume when she did that preseason/practice game with the Bolts years back. The problem is I just don't think they are capable of playing up to the Physicalness of a male game in and game out. I can just imagine watching a female get up after a Lucic check.

Granted i know that the NHL has been trying to get us accustomed to this over the last few years with introducing us to Paul Karyia but i still think they are a while off. Players are just getting bigger and stronger. Men are just built all around bigger than females... especially those who play in the NHL.

[Namingway 146]

Manon Rheaume, female goaltender and also olympic silver medalist, signed as a free agent with the bolts but only played two preseason games for em in 92 and 93 haha. Since then there has never been any other female players in the NHL.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Namingway

[zaxx 0]

I am not against a Female playing in the big leagues... I was all about Rheaume when she did that preseason/practice game with the Bolts years back. The problem is I just don't think they are capable of playing up to the Physicalness of a male game in and game out. I can just imagine watching a female get up after a Lucic check.

Granted i know that the NHL has been trying to get us accustomed to this over the last few years with introducing us to Paul Karyia but i still think they are a while off. Players are just getting bigger and stronger. Men are just built all around bigger than females... especially those who play in the NHL.

I just do not buy the argument that women could not handle the rough play of hockey. Yes your average women could not but neither could your average man.

There are some guys in the NHL smaller then the girls on the Womens national team, they do just fine. Injuries will come and players will be hurt but there will be one that succeeds.

[OsGOD 3]

Manon Rheaume, female goaltender and also olympic silver medalist, signed as a free agent with the bolts but only played two preseason games for em in 92 and 93 haha. Since then there has never been any other female players in the NHL.

lol i knew it was a while ago i saw her, didn't know it was over 16 years ago...shamWOW time really does fly

[Statts 4]

Crosby whines like a girl. (someone had to say it)

I have played with a couple girls when I was younger, and they held their own, granted it was before we were allowed to check. I'm all about equality, so if they can handle the game let em play.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Statts

[Frozen-Man 144]

I just do not buy the argument that women could not handle the rough play of hockey. Yes your average women could not but neither could your average man.

There are some guys in the NHL smaller then the girls on the Womens national team, they do just fine. Injuries will come and players will be hurt but there will be one that succeeds.

If you are going to make generalizations like that play them out . . . I agree that your average man could not handle the rough play of hockey either but which one could handle them better? The fact is that women's highest levels of hockey don't have full on lay out hits and use cages on their faces. I actually really enjoy watching women's hockey (especially the Olympics) even though I rarely get to see it but it is a very different game. It is not the smash and crash game that the NHL is, it is much more of a finesse game - a great game - BUT a very different game because (in my opinion) of the realization of the differences physically between men and women. If you want a comparison compare the best to the best. The best male boxers would destroy the best female boxers; the best male weight lifters dwarf the weights lifted by the best women weight lifters; the best male shot putters out throw the best female shot putters; and the best male hockey players in the world destroy the best female hockey players - that is why they have women's professional teams (with different rules) and you never see NHL guys trying to get into women's leagues but the converse is true for all sports.

[C-TownWing 0]

Not only would I root for her, but I would dream about having sex with her on a nightly basis.

lol why wait? I already have Angela Ruggiero on my freebie 5!

Hey Angela, if you're reading this, call me!

[uk_redwing 495]

If you are going to make generalizations like that play them out . . . I agree that your average man could not handle the rough play of hockey either but which one could handle them better? The fact is that women's highest levels of hockey don't have full on lay out hits and use cages on their faces. I actually really enjoy watching women's hockey (especially the Olympics) even though I rarely get to see it but it is a very different game. It is not the smash and crash game that the NHL is, it is much more of a finesse game - a great game - BUT a very different game because (in my opinion) of the realization of the differences physically between men and women. If you want a comparison compare the best to the best. The best male boxers would destroy the best female boxers; the best male weight lifters dwarf the weights lifted by the best women weight lifters; the best male shot putters out throw the best female shot putters; and the best male hockey players in the world destroy the best female hockey players - that is why they have women's professional teams (with different rules) and you never see NHL guys trying to get into women's leagues but the converse is true for all sports.

If I was able to put my thoughts into words poperly before, it would have been something along these lines...maybe with a Downey reference or two.