This time it will be different

[BewareThePenguin 1]

As any of you who remember know, last year before the series I appeared on this board to discuss the upcoming series. Unlike some cocky Pens' fans, I expressed doubt that the young Pens could overcome both a) the lack of knowing what to expect with a championship series, and b) the Red Wings' mix of experience and big-game, big-situation savvy. You have no idea what abuse I took from some Pens' fans over this, but I was proved right, as it took til game 3 for the Pens to even begin competing with Detroit.

Last year I had my doubts the Pens could win a 7-game series with Detroit -- this year, I have no doubt the Pittsburgh Penguins can win. Notice I said CAN -- not will. I (unlike some overconfident types who've shown up here lately) know what they're up against with this loaded Wings' squad. Age or no age, banged-up or not, Detroit is the best team in hockey until somebody knocks them off. That won't be any easier to do this year.

A lot's been made of the "experience" thing, as in the Pens have now been there and logically are ready to take the next step. Yeah maybe, but that's not the main factor as to why Pittsburgh has a shot. Something that's not been discussed much by the "experts", but to me is the key, is this: Coach Bylsma's system, which is much better suited to the talents of Crosby, Malkin and the rest of the squad. The trap scheme used by Coach's successor was an awful fit for the Pens -- and since Bylsma took over the team in late February, the Pens not surprisingly are a totally superior team. Suddenly the Pens went from being mentioned to almost not making the playoffs, to playing the best hockey in the conference. If Bylsma had coached the whole year, I have little doubt the Pens are the #1 or #2 seed.

So it will be a different series than last year. It's up to the Pens, though, to show they belong on the mountaintop -- we all know Detroit does. If the Wings come out and just plain outskate the Pens as they did last year, it'll be another short series. With guys like Datsyuk and Franzen, talent like the Pens have yet to face, that's still possible.

But somehow I don't think it'll work out that way.

One more thing: Osgood. Why this guy doesn't get more credit outside of Detroit is beyond me. The guy's awesome, yet they rarely mention his name among the top goalies. That's just wrong. I have no doubt he'll be a major pain to score on this series.

I wouldn't have the Pens face any other team but yours in the finals. Facing anybody else just wouldn't be the same. Here's to a having a series for the ages to watch...

P.S. Doobie doobie doo...

[servo 15]

My only concern with this series is our health.

How do you think the Pens would hold up if Gonchar was out and Malkin was out?

How do you think the Pens "experience" matches up with the Wings experience? Don't be brainwashed by all of the pundits predicting their experience will pull them thru the series.

I fully expect Malkin to have a much better series than last year. Crosby will likely have about the same, maybe slightly better.

The coaching is MUCH better. You may have had more of a chance if you had a real coach on the bench last year. But he's no Bowman.

Face it, head to head healthy to healty the Wings are much much more dominant.

IMO, the outcome of this series will be health.

At least with you, we can debate this. My biggest fear is Malkin. If you guys win, he'll get the Con Smyth.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

Solid post. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Michelle was a horrible fit for the Penguins and it seems like Bylsma has taken the Pens to the next level.

Reasons why the Pens might win.

1. Bylsma is the perfect fit for Crosby, Malkin and the Penguins.

2. Experience factor. Not only have the Pens been there but theyve added Feditenko, Guerin, and Kunitz. Three players who have won.

3. The Wings injury questions along with the three games in four nights fiasco.

It will be different this time around. I think it's truly a pick em series.

[good morning 10]

I just don't think the Penguins are REALLY playing that much better this year than last year. Look at last year, they totally dominated their east conference rivals in the playoffs and still couldn't manage to beat Detroit. So they swept the Hurricanes - big deal. Detroit swept a team, too, and pretty much owned the Blackhawks despite losing our best defenseman, best defensive forward and best penalty killer.

the fact is that the eastern conference has a long ways to go to match the prowess of the western conference. Pittsburgh could meet Detroit every single year for the next 5 years and get stunned every time, because the teams they play DON'T match up to the teams Detroit plays.

[xtrememachine1 795]

My biggest fear is Malkin. If you guys win, he'll get the Conn Smyth.

Malkin is basically on a line by himself. If the Wings get killed by him in this series, then they deserve to lose.

[BewareThePenguin 1]

My only concern with this series is our health.

How do you think the Pens would hold up if Gonchar was out and Malkin was out?

How do you think the Pens "experience" matches up with the Wings experience? Don't be brainwashed by all of the pundits predicting their experience will pull them thru the series.

I fully expect Malkin to have a much better series than last year. Crosby will likely have about the same, maybe slightly better.

The coaching is MUCH better. You may have had more of a chance if you had a real coach on the bench last year. But he's no Bowman.

Face it, head to head healthy to healty the Wings are much much more dominant.

IMO, the outcome of this series will be health.

At least with you, we can debate this. My biggest fear is Malkin. If you guys win, he'll get the Con Smyth.

Gonchar still isn't 100 percent.

Malkin and Crosby have to have a better series, as they were largely invisible last year.

I don't claim the Pens experience will "pull them through", read my post again -- in fact I'm saying that theory is overdone. What will help is that at least the Pens will know what it's like to play in a finals this time around.

So they at least won't have that burden around their necks.

Coaching: you're pretty much agreeing with what I said.

Health: Detroit's got more depth to deal with injuries than just about any other team.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Gonchar still isn't 100 percent.

I don't claim the Pens experience will "pull them through", read my post again -- in fact I'm saying that theory is overdone. What will help is that at least the Pens will know what it's like to play in a finals this time around.

So they at least won't have that burden around their necks.

Coaching: you're pretty much agreeing with what I said.

I enjoyed you post and appreciate the opportunity to have rational discussions with other fans. I gotta agree, the experience will pull them through is vastly overrated however, you are also correct that the experience of playing in the finals will benefit them as will the veteran trades they made. I think it may be a little surprising to some how much more calm and collected the Pens come out this year after having gotten the shock and awe of last year out of the way.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Frozen-Man

[BewareThePenguin 1]

Solid post. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Michelle was a horrible fit for the Penguins and it seems like Bylsma has taken the Pens to the next level.

Reasons why the Pens might win.

1. Bylsma is the perfect fit for Crosby, Malkin and the Penguins.

2. Experience factor. Not only have the Pens been there but theyve added Feditenko, Guerin, and Kunitz. Three players who have won.

3. The Wings injury questions along with the three games in four nights fiasco.

It will be different this time around. I think it's truly a pick em series.

Yes -- unlike some myth believers here who insist the Pens are a two-man team, guys like Kunitz and Fedotenko have contributed vital big-game know-how. In fact they're calling the whole new Bylsma style "Fedotenko hockey."

Detroit's stocked with guys who have won though -- the injury thing is getting as overplayed as the Pens' "new experience" supposed advantage. None of it matters til we see how the Pens skate with Detroit the first couple of games. Last year it wasn't even close.

[xtrememachine1 795]

Malkin and Crosby have to have a better series, as they were largely invisible last year.

I remember Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom all being out there when Crosby was. His lack of production had nothing to do with how well he played. I thought he was playing really well, but three of the top defensive players in the league at the same time is too much.

[theman19 47]

excellent post top to bottom.

You forget the hossa factor though. In my opinion he holds the red wings fates. If he shows up and dominates, this series is over. If he's totally quiet and completly ineffective the pens have better than good chances.

[StormJH1 231]

Haha, "doobie doobie doo". Gotta love it. Too bad the whole "Bud Ice" thing flamed out.

I agree with virtually all of your well-reasoned take, BTP. As for the whole "feeling different" thing, the truth is that I don't feel significantly less confident this year than I did last year about my Wings squad, but only because I did not expect the Wings to roll over the Pens last year either. I was actually stunned the way they took Games 1 & 2, but after Fleury figured out the whole "coming out of the tunnel" thing and the young guys calmed down, you could see by games 5 & 6 that those were two evenly matched teams.

One thing that I find interesting is that the biggest storyline from this Final has to be Marian Hossa, but in discussions of how this thing will turn out, Hossa's name is being overshadowed by Detroit's health concerns and a lot of the other players on Detroit who have been providing scoring. That's probably because Hossa has not done much scoring for us in these playoffs, but he has been a factor, and if he decides to start scoring like he was during the regular season for us, I think the 2008 Final was a perfect illustration of what a pain in the butt he can be for the opposition.

Also, props for acknowledging Osgood and what he has accomplished. To say that he isn't appreciated outside of Detroit is an understatement--the guy is outright slandered by hockey fans everywhere. If all you did was check NHL.com for his regular season GAA, I could understand why. But the guy is and has always given the Wings an opportunity to win, and he's done it where a lot of other reputable goaltenders have failed (Essensa, Ranford, CuJo, Hasek in 2008). I'm still not totally sold on Fleury. He kinda reminds of Cam Ward in that he looks like one of the best goalies in the league when he's on, but then goes through these stretches where he's ordinary, or worse.

Best of luck to you and your squad in the Finals. I live & die with the Red Wings, but if we have to lose to somebody, better against a town like Pittsburgh that actually appreciates hockey then something like an Anaheim, Carolina, or Tampa Bay!

[maltbymaniac 13]

i still dont think one year of expierence is good enough.

[BewareThePenguin 1]

excellent post top to bottom.

You forget the hossa factor though. In my opinion he holds the red wings fates. If he shows up and dominates, this series is over. If he's totally quiet and completly ineffective the pens have better than good chances.

Oh, believe me I haven't forgotten him. (See my other thread from yesterday.)

The Hossa factor could also work for the Pens, as they'll be motivated by the supreme joy of getting to wave the Cup in his traitor face should they win. Just another fine storyline for the series.

[StormJH1 231]

I remember Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom all being out there when Crosby was. His lack of production had nothing to do with how well he played. I thought he was playing really well, but three of the top defensive players in the league at the same time is too much.

Everyone in the league knows what Lidstrom does, but I got sense that Crosby and Malkin (both VERY young guys) were stunned last year at the degree to which star forwards like Datsyuk and Zetterberg also worked their butts off on shadowing their every move. I would have to think that Crosby and Malkin will be better prepared for that this year. Detroit has an edge in secondary scoring (since it seems to go about 7-10 forwards deep), but guys like Guerin and Satan who didn't seem to be factors anymore suddenly work well in this system and are contributing.

The funny thing about the injuries is that we came out of the Anaheim series surprisingly healthy. Then, out of nowhere, major injury after major injury started creeping up. Such is the "Second Season."

[StormJH1 231]

Oh, believe me I haven't forgotten him. (See my other thread from yesterday.)

The Hossa factor could also work for the Pens, as they'll be motivated by the supreme joy of getting to wave the Cup in his traitor face should they win. Just another fine storyline for the series.

Disagree that Hossa is a "traitor", since he never willfully elected to play for Pittsburgh in the first place (and was there for all of 3 months as a rent-a-*****), but that's a whole other discussion worthy of your separate thread.

Agree that Pittsburgh may also be motivated by Hossa's presence on the opponent, but not any more motivated than they already were looking to avenge last year's loss.

[BewareThePenguin 1]

Haha, "doobie doobie doo". Gotta love it. Too bad the whole "Bud Ice" thing flamed out.

I agree with virtually all of your well-reasoned take, BTP. As for the whole "feeling different" thing, the truth is that I don't feel significantly less confident this year than I did last year about my Wings squad, but only because I did not expect the Wings to roll over the Pens last year either. I was actually stunned the way they took Games 1 & 2, but after Fleury figured out the whole "coming out of the tunnel" thing and the young guys calmed down, you could see by games 5 & 6 that those were two evenly matched teams.

One thing that I find interesting is that the biggest storyline from this Final has to be Marian Hossa, but in discussions of how this thing will turn out, Hossa's name is being overshadowed by Detroit's health concerns and a lot of the other players on Detroit who have been providing scoring. That's probably because Hossa has not done much scoring for us in these playoffs, but he has been a factor, and if he decides to start scoring like he was during the regular season for us, I think the 2008 Final was a perfect illustration of what a pain in the butt he can be for the opposition.

Also, props for acknowledging Osgood and what he has accomplished. To say that he isn't appreciated outside of Detroit is an understatement--the guy is outright slandered by hockey fans everywhere. If all you did was check NHL.com for his regular season GAA, I could understand why. But the guy is and has always given the Wings an opportunity to win, and he's done it where a lot of other reputable goaltenders have failed (Essensa, Ranford, CuJo, Hasek in 2008). I'm still not totally sold on Fleury. He kinda reminds of Cam Ward in that he looks like one of the best goalies in the league when he's on, but then goes through these stretches where he's ordinary, or worse.

Best of luck to you and your squad in the Finals. I live & die with the Red Wings, but if we have to lose to somebody, better against a town like Pittsburgh that actually appreciates hockey then something like an Anaheim, Carolina, or Tampa Bay!

I never underrated Osgood. Pluses, minuses and other numbers can be meaningless -- how does a guy perform in the big-game big-moment situations? He usually seems to shine.

You rarely ever see Detroit do anything dumb, penalty-wise or other. That's another big hurdle for an opponent to overcome. The Pens had one tough series and two gliders. We'll see if they can step it up now.

[Shaman 713]

What has the SCF taught us anything in the last 15 years its this

Defense>Offense

Detroit better Defensive team>Pittsburgh better offensive talent 2008

Anaheim Best D >Ottawa Great O 2007

I can keep on going to 1995 where the wings were beaten by the Devils in 4, because we had the great offense, but they played a shutdown Defense sort of game.

My point here is, while the pens could win, its always smart to bet on the team in the SCF with the better D.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Shaman464

[dawings1905 2]

Gonchar still isn't 100 percent.

Malkin and Crosby have to have a better series, as they were largely invisible last year.

I don't claim the Pens experience will "pull them through", read my post again -- in fact I'm saying that theory is overdone. What will help is that at least the Pens will know what it's like to play in a finals this time around.

So they at least won't have that burden around their necks.

Coaching: you're pretty much agreeing with what I said.

Health: Detroit's got more depth to deal with injuries than just about any other team.

I do think that the Pens system under Blysma, getting aggressive of the forecheck, is a much better fit.....and the Pens responded well to it. I think something that is overlooked in the regulars season though is that Blysma had more pieces than Michelle. They made some good moves before the deadline. They are much deeper than they were under coach T. I do think that this series is about timing. If the NHL had gone with the original schedule, I would take the wings in 6 just like last year. For many reasons I think the original schedule benefitted the wings more than Pitt. We would have gotten a chance to get healthyl, the Pens are hot right now, the wings are a veteran team that would probably handle the wait a little better. JMO. I think the NHL robbed itself of the best on the ice product by doing this wacky scheduling change. With the move up however, it is much more difficult to call. I REALLY believe the move up to this weekend benefits the Pens. In many ways....they are hot, our health, we are playing on not much rest (yes that extra day will make a little bit of difference) back to back games at home sux etc.... Bottom line is this......When both teams have a full lineup the wings are the best in the league, hands down. However, the league (whether on purpose or not) has set the Pens up in the best possible scenario for them to win. No matter what you call it, that part is true IMO. Hopefully Dats is healthier than they a letting on, and he is ready to go. It just wouldn't be right for both teams to not have their best players on the ice. I wouldn't want to beat the Pens without Crosby or Malkin. It just wouldn't be the same. It's a shame the league is more worried about what NBC thinks, than doing the best thing for their players and the fans by putting the best product on the ice. The best product, is not watching two teams skate tired on Sunday.

[henrik40 76]

I think Fleury is going to be a huge factor in this series, probably the biggest factor for the Pens. He's been incredibly inconsistent, playing below average some games, and huge others. If he gives up 3 or more goals to the Wings (ie game 2 against Canes) the Pens can't win. Also, I wish Pens fans would stop considering Hossa a traitor. 30 games with the team does not mean he needs to remain loyal to them. He was a rental player. If he had gone somewhere else than the Wings, would he be a traitor? Probably not, the fact that they beat the Penguins last year made it harder to deal with.

[BewareThePenguin 1]

Disagree that Hossa is a "traitor", since he never willfully elected to play for Pittsburgh in the first place (and was there for all of 3 months as a rent-a-*****), but that's a whole other discussion worthy of your separate thread.

Agree that Pittsburgh may also be motivated by Hossa's presence on the opponent, but not any more motivated than they already were looking to avenge last year's loss.

I don't want to turn this into another Hossa thread but let me just add quicky: it was more about HOW he left rather than the fact he left period. He opted to take as much time as possible to make his decision, and leave the team's offer (and the team itself) hanging PLUS the whole "I'm going where I can win a championship finally" dig he took at the team on the way out the door.

So yes, Hossa WILL be a motivation beyond just getting revenge for last year.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

that's the most exciting part of the series is no one knows FOR SURE that their team is gonna win. we can speculate all we want, but until the puck drops saturday we don't even know fully what to expect. it's gonna be good.

[wmubronco420 25]

hahaha oh man i comepletely forgot about those bud ice commercials! they're hilarious, thouhg they used to scare me as a kid lol

[dawings1905 2]

Yes -- unlike some myth believers here who insist the Pens are a two-man team, guys like Kunitz and Fedotenko have contributed vital big-game know-how. In fact they're calling the whole new Bylsma style "Fedotenko hockey."

Detroit's stocked with guys who have won though -- the injury thing is getting as overplayed as the Pens' "new experience" supposed advantage. None of it matters til we see how the Pens skate with Detroit the first couple of games. Last year it wasn't even close.

I disagree on the injury thing being overplayed. Having 6 regulars out of your lineup is a pretty big deal. One which most teams wouldn't survive (especially in the conference finals) It also takes a toll on the legs (jump) of the guys covering for those guys.

Oh, and because I don't want to quote another one of your posts (most of the stuff you have said I agree with), but I also disagree with the Plus/minus thing. To me that is one of the most important numbers in hockey, and here is why.

If a guy has 50 goals, we say WOW what a player, but if his plus/minus is -2.....that means his line gives up a ton of goals while he is out there. What this means.......the guy is a great goal scorer, but a liability playing D. And as many youngsters in Detroit have learned is that D comes first. If you don't Play good D, you don't wear the winged Wheel. To me, there is no bigger stat than the +/-, it is indicative of you well you play when matched up even strength against other teams lines.

[DRW Dominance 255]

Pitt can win but they better have a whole hell lotta desire. The thing that I see is that Pitt just can't match wingers or defence with us. Yes they have arguably the 2 best centers but as Babs has stated before, it's the Wings entire 5 man unit against those centers. We are too deep of a team.

On a bit of a side note I am completely ******* sick and tired of hearing about Crosby and Malkin this year as if they didn't even play in the series last year. Our TEAM defence will get us the cup again this year.

[Shaman 713]

So to sum up the thread

"OH NOES THE WINGS HAZ NO HOPES OF WEENIINNNGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!! "