Better overall core of defensemen - Flames or Wings?

[BeeRYCE 2]

With the signing of Bouwmeester, it is safe to say that they compete right up there with the likes of the Wings for best group of d-men in the league. Phaneuf had an off season, but he is still IMO, one of the league's top d-man and might be back in the running for Norris next season.

Obviously the Wings have the best d-man in the league and one of the greatest ever in Lebda (, you know who I meant)... But with that even said do the Flames closely compare? Bouwmeester is a SICK d-man who will be heavily relied on in the 2010 Olympics, as will Dion, hell as will Regher... Scary to think that the Flames may likely have 3 defensemen playing for Canada.

So...

Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Lilja, Lebda, (Ericsson, Meech?)

and...

Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regher, Sarich, Giordano, and possibly Aucoin

So, pending on maybe another decent defensive signing by the Flames... Is it safe to say there in'ts any team better defensively other than the Wings? I think Bouwmeester and Phaneuf can collectively be the most lethal D combo in the league, and yes arguably more lethal collectively than Raffy and Lids. It's a good debate.

Edited July 1, 2009 by BeeRYCE

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Lidstrom is better than anyone on the Flames.

Rafalski is the equal of Phaneuf or Bouwmeester (well, not defensively in the case of Jay).

Kronwall is better than their bottom 4.

Need I go on?

The Flames have an awesome top pairing, but their depth can't touch the Wings.

The Wings had 3 D-men in the top 11 scorers last season.

Lidstrom-Rafalski is far more leathal than Bouwmeester-Phaneuf. It should be noted that Jay isn't an elite scorer, he's a much more rounded kind of guy. I can't really see him topping 60pts. He's definitely an elite d-man, but it's more because he does everything excellent, than because he scores like a monster (ala Lidstrom).

[RedFX 48]

Interesting debate. I think the automatic edge right now goes to the Wings; as they've proven they can consistently get to the top with this core.

I think Bouwmeester is still unproven. He hasn't really played in any big time games or situations, so it's tough to compare him with Lidstrom or Rafalski in that regard. He'll get his chances in Calgary.

No question though Calgary has some good depth there. They need to start getting deeper into the playoffs before they start drawing Wings comparisons though

Edited July 1, 2009 by RedFX

[Winged_Wheeler 3]

Detroit in a heart beat, we're winning the Cup this season.

[titanium2 867]

First Anaheim. Now Calgary. You know, I could see Calgary as the new Anaheim to the Wings with their Dmen group. Very, very annoying.

[titanium2 867]

Detroit in a heart beat, we're winning the Cup this season.

I'd share your moxie if those damn Olympics weren't next year.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Phaneuf is overrated. He built up a ton of goodwill when he had a great rookie season, and he's been expending that pretty rapidly ever since.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

I think the Flames are finally moving past the 1st round next season...

[FedorovMan91 1]

Some people forget one thing: Bouwmeester is far better than Phaneuf. Besides, while the Wings' 2nd and 3rd line D-Pairs can stand up against other team's top 2 lines, the Flames 3rd pair cannot do this.

For Phaneuf, he was the most overrated player accoring to the survery with Spezza. His playng in first 2 years was impressive but he is the player without any development.

Besides, I believe Bouwmeester is a great young D-man but I am not going to state anything about him in either in a bad way or good way because this deal reminds me the deal of Campbell. For sure, Bouwmeester's defensive skill must be better than Campbell but every player has an open opportunity to be the garbage compared to the cap hit

[Guest mindfly]

Kronwall is basically identical to Phaneuf, phaneuf is 4years younger and could probably be better at the same age but not for now, one is swedish the other one is canadian.. make your pick.

Edited July 1, 2009 by mindfly

[Finnish Wing 110]

I think Flyers should be in this competition too.

[The Secret 304]

With the signing of Bouwmeester, it is safe to say that they compete right up there with the likes of the Wings for best group of d-men in the league. Phaneuf had an off season, but he is still IMO, one of the league's top d-man and might be back in the running for Norris next season.

Obviously the Wings have the best d-man in the league and one of the greatest ever in Lebda (, you know who I meant)... But with that even said do the Flames closely compare? Bouwmeester is a SICK d-man who will be heavily relied on in the 2010 Olympics, as will Dion, hell as will Regher... Scary to think that the Flames may likely have 3 defensemen playing for Canada.

So...

Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Lilja, Lebda, (Ericsson, Meech?)

and...

Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regher, Sarich, Giordano, and possibly Aucoin

So, pending on maybe another decent defensive signing by the Flames... Is it safe to say there in'ts any team better defensively other than the Wings? I think Bouwmeester and Phaneuf can collectively be the most lethal D combo in the league, and yes arguably more lethal collectively than Raffy and Lids. It's a good debate.

Even by adding Bouwmeester (good job Flamers!) you are still compairing 2 different universes on D. Calgary's D is still not even remotely close to ours and I would further bet our second paring could compete strongly against the Flamers new top pairing.

[StevieY9802 6]

Interesting debate. I think the automatic edge right now goes to the Wings; as they've proven they can consistently get to the top with this core.

I think Bouwmeester is still unproven. He hasn't really played in any big time games or situations, so it's tough to compare him with Lidstrom or Rafalski in that regard. He'll get his chances in Calgary.

No question though Calgary has some good depth there. They need to start getting deeper into the playoffs before they start drawing Wings comparisons though

This is how I feel. Flames have some depth and some talent for sure but they haven't really proven anything, especially not as a group. Jaybo hasn't been able to prove himself so we'll see what he can do with some talent around him. I still go the edge to the Wings.

[OsGOD 3]

all depends on how they play on the ice... wings were s*** all season

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

all depends on how they play on the ice... wings were s*** all season

And then in the playoffs the Flames got gashed for 4-5 goals a game by the Hawks while the Wings held them to 2 goals per game.

[UKWING 8]

Lidstrom is better than anyone on the Flames.

Rafalski is the equal of Phaneuf or Bouwmeester (well, not defensively in the case of Jay).

Kronwall is better than their bottom 4.

Need I go on?

The Flames have an awesome top pairing, but their depth can't touch the Wings.

The Wings had 3 D-men in the top 11 scorers last season.

Lidstrom-Rafalski is far more leathal than Bouwmeester-Phaneuf. It should be noted that Jay isn't an elite scorer, he's a much more rounded kind of guy. I can't really see him topping 60pts. He's definitely an elite d-man, but it's more because he does everything excellent, than because he scores like a monster (ala Lidstrom).

regehr is far better than kronwall IMO.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

If we are putting are red colored goggles aside to answer this question, it's flames no doubt.

On this message board ive heard all about how great our defense and depth is over the past year, and on paper, maybe I'll agree. However on the ice, where games are played, we saw first hand when the penguins took us to school, that even their defense was superior to ours. Most biased Red Wing fans must of missed it.

When it comes down to it, no one wants to admit this but...

Lidstrom - Still Great. However is no longer than invisible force he once was.

Rafalski- Awesome on the powerplay, awesome offensive force. Absolutely abysmal defensively.

Kronwall- Has lapses at times but I still think is a solid top four d-man.

Stuart- Same as above.

Ericcson- Will only get better.

Moreover, To say that Rafalski is even in the same league as Bouwmeester is outrageous.

Bottom line, Ill take Bouwmeester and Phaneuf over Lidstrom and Rafalski at this stage of the game. Yeah, I said it. However id probably take our depth (Kronwall, Stuart, and Ericcson)

[ben_usmc 253]

If we are putting are red colored goggles aside to answer this question, it's flames no doubt.

On this message board ive heard all about how great our defense and depth is over the past year, and on paper, maybe I'll agree. However on the ice, where games are played, we saw first hand when the penguins took us to school, that even their defense was superior to ours. Most biased Red Wing fans must of missed it.

When it comes down to it, no one wants to admit this but...

Lidstrom - Still Great. However is no longer than invisible force he once was.

Rafalski- Awesome on the powerplay, awesome offensive force. Absolutely abysmal defensively.

Kronwall- Has lapses at times but I still think is a solid top four d-man.

Stuart- Same as above.

Ericcson- Will only get better.

Moreover, To say that Rafalski is even in the same league as Bouwmeester is outrageous.

Bottom line, Ill take Bouwmeester and Phaneuf over Lidstrom and Rafalski at this stage of the game. Yeah, I said it. However id probably take our depth (Kronwall, Stuart, and Ericcson)

Well if you are talking about the Pens series you also need to keep in mind, Lidstrom - played right after groin surgery. Rafalski - messed up back/shoulder, Lilja - didn't even play in the playoffs. So it's not a real fair comparision. Hell if you are comparing why not use a team like Chicago who they both played against?

[eva unit zero 271]

regehr is far better than kronwall IMO.

Aucoin shouldn't be included in this comparison, as he is an unsigned UFA. Matt Pelech should be used instead as he is the RFA who played the most games last season.

This leaves:

Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Ericsson, Lilja vs Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr, Sarich, Giordano, Pelech

Honestly...as good as the Flames' D corps looks?

Detroit still wins by quite a margin. Let's take the top two defensemen from each team.

Lids/Rafi vs Bouw/Phaneuf:

Lidstrom is significantly better than either Bouwmeester or Phaneuf. Rafalski is basically about even regardless who you match him against in this matchup.

Now, the next two:

Kronner/Stu vs Regehr/Sarich

Kronwall is the best defenseman in this comparison. Stuart is about even overall with Regehr and Sarich is easily the worst of the four.

And, finally:

Ericsson/Lilja vs Giordano/Pelech

Lilja and Giordano are both generally stay-at-home types. Lilja is definitely the better of the two.

Ericsson is considerably better than Pelech.

If Calgary signs Aucoin, that makes considerable difference in this comparison. But they haven't and there is good chance they won't.

Part of this thread talks about how Phaneuf is overrated. Phaneuf is very good, maybe a little overrated, but one thing I think needs to be mentioned:

People aren't realizing that Bouwmeester himself is a bit overrated too. Yes, he has played his entire career with Florida. But he played most of it in front of Luongo, and after that Vokoun. An elite goalie can make a defensemen look better defensively simply by making saves that should have been sure goals. Phaneuf doesn't get that privilege because all he has is Kipper, who was an elite goalie for a couple seasons and for some reason people still call him one even though he can't play for s***. Let's see what happens when the season starts.

[Pucks 66]

Wings group is better Offensively but I like the size and grit of Calgary defense better. Both are great though.

[VM1138 1,921]

Wings have the clear edge, but Calgary has really put together a great defensive corps. Among the best, if not second best behind the Wings.

[C-TownWing 0]

People aren't realizing that Bouwmeester himself is a bit overrated too. Yes, he has played his entire career with Florida. But he played most of it in front of Luongo, and after that Vokoun. An elite goalie can make a defensemen look better defensively simply by making saves that should have been sure goals. Phaneuf doesn't get that privilege because all he has is Kipper, who was an elite goalie for a couple seasons and for some reason people still call him one even though he can't play for s***. Let's see what happens when the season starts.

Nice calls on Bouwmeester and Kipper, I agree on both. Bouwmeester, IMO, is one of those guys that gets overrated because he's available--you see it every year at the trade deadline and with UFAs. If you're the best of what's available (even if what's available is a giant pile of mediocre), you get treated like an elite player. Partly a creation of the media (gotta get eyeballs on TSN Tradecentre), partly a creation of fans hoping that the guy someone else didn't want is the last piece to a Cup team.

Anyway, Wings easily, but now that Pronger's in Philly, Flames have a solid case for #2.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Bottom line, Ill take Bouwmeester and Phaneuf over Lidstrom and Rafalski at this stage of the game. Yeah, I said it. However id probably take our depth (Kronwall, Stuart, and Ericcson)

This pretty much sums my feelings up.

[dat's sick 1,002]

If we are putting are red colored goggles aside to answer this question, it's flames no doubt.

On this message board ive heard all about how great our defense and depth is over the past year, and on paper, maybe I'll agree. However on the ice, where games are played, we saw first hand when the penguins took us to school, that even their defense was superior to ours. Most biased Red Wing fans must of missed it.

When it comes down to it, no one wants to admit this but...

Lidstrom - Still Great. However is no longer than invisible force he once was.

Rafalski- Awesome on the powerplay, awesome offensive force. Absolutely abysmal defensively.

Kronwall- Has lapses at times but I still think is a solid top four d-man.

Stuart- Same as above.

Ericcson- Will only get better.

Moreover, To say that Rafalski is even in the same league as Bouwmeester is outrageous.

Bottom line, Ill take Bouwmeester and Phaneuf over Lidstrom and Rafalski at this stage of the game. Yeah, I said it. However id probably take our depth (Kronwall, Stuart, and Ericcson)

Rafalski is NOT abysmal defensively. Sometimes he's a bit slow and easy to beat on the outside, but most of the time he's positioned well and he's definitely better than PHANEUF. His biggest strenght is obviously his puck-moving skills and play on the point on the PP, but he quietly does a good job on the defense as well.

Phaneuf is so damn overrated. I wouldn't take him over a bag of wet donuts.

[Frozen-Man 144]

If we are putting are red colored goggles aside to answer this question, it's flames no doubt.

On this message board ive heard all about how great our defense and depth is over the past year, and on paper, maybe I'll agree. However on the ice, where games are played, we saw first hand when the penguins took us to school, that even their defense was superior to ours. Most biased Red Wing fans must of missed it.

When it comes down to it, no one wants to admit this but...

Lidstrom - Still Great. However is no longer than invisible force he once was.

Rafalski- Awesome on the powerplay, awesome offensive force. Absolutely abysmal defensively.

Kronwall- Has lapses at times but I still think is a solid top four d-man.

Stuart- Same as above.

Ericcson- Will only get better.

Moreover, To say that Rafalski is even in the same league as Bouwmeester is outrageous.

Bottom line, Ill take Bouwmeester and Phaneuf over Lidstrom and Rafalski at this stage of the game. Yeah, I said it. However id probably take our depth (Kronwall, Stuart, and Ericcson)

Lidstrom has never been an "invisible" force - he has however, often been a near invincible one and even this year as close to invincible as anyone else (even having testicular surgery). Rafi is not incredible defensively but he is far from abysmal.

Bottom line, Ill take Bouwmeester and Phaneuf over Lidstrom and Rafalski at this stage of the game. Yeah, I said it. However id probably take our depth (Kronwall, Stuart, and Ericcson)

I think it depends upon how you mean it - if you are talking about next year or the one after that I would definitely take Lids and Rafi, if however, you are talking about the next 5-7 years I think you might be correct that they younger guys will have a longer lasting (and thus potentially better) impact on their team.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Frozen-Man