Ken Holland about next years roster and williams

[sureWhyNot 19]

What would you do then?

Sign Williams for $2 million... Duh...

[sureWhyNot 19]

Great. Then go whine up a storm as usual and find another team to root for; clearly this one has inept management, right?

HAHAHAHAHA.... When I took you seriously I would get mad at this type of garbage... But now that I realized that you are -- putting it nicely -- the way you are, I just laugh.

It's classic, whenever someone disagrees with you, it's clear what's coming; "blah blah blah, whine whine whine, go cheer for another team then, blah, blah, blah."

I would tell you to shut up, but now that is has become entertainment I really want more of your blabber.

[sureWhyNot 19]

I love my team, I love what Holland has done with it over the years, but I just can't back him up on this one. I simply can't. He really bit the big one with this signing.

This is the most spot on statement I have come across today.

Well said, I couldn't agree with you more.

[Guest Crymson]

There are actually many errors in reasoning in your post.

No True Scotsman fallacy, fallacy to irrelevant conclusion to name a few.

That makes no sense.

[thedatsyukian 7]

Talk about overreaction.. I don't particularly like this signing either but you need a little bit of perspective.

1.one year signing

2.barely more than sammy made

3.primarily third line role

This signing will have minimal effect on the wings regardless of how much most of us hate him.

[wingsownnhl43 14]

That makes no sense.

Ill try to explain.

I say : I still am in shock over this piece of sh!t signing.

You say: Go find another team to root for.

No True Scotsman fallacy. Just because I am not in favor of every move the organization makes doesnt mean I am not a true fan.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumpti...-true-scotsman/

I say: I am still in shock over this piece of sh!t signing.

You say: Clearly this one has inept management.

It can be perceived as irrelevant conclusion, but this probably best fits the composition fallacy. Basically you took what I said out of context.

Just because I think that management made one bad terrible signing, doesnt mean I think it's inept as a whole.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/composition/

Basic Logic 101.

Sorry for that but you did ask me to elaborate.

[rage 24]

Really guys? For a cool $1.5 mill, I am not going to lose sleep.

Yeah, I would have loved to see some brand new blood like Prospol or something, but I get that in Eaves.

Look at the Positive Y'all, we get to see Howard up here ALL YEAR!!!!! Hell Yes!!

For what it's worth, I hope they put Ericsson on the PP Units!!

[esteef 2,679]

I think the overall frustration is less about the potentially negative impact Williams will have and more about the potentially positive impact someone else like Grier would've had.

esteef

[rick zombo 3,739]

I think the overall frustration is less about the potentially negative impact Williams will have and more about the potentially positive impact someone else like Grier would've had.

esteef

For sure.

However, let's wait and see what Grier ends up signing for. Maybe he wanted a longer term deall.

Clearly Holland's not interested in signing anyone for more than a year, and I think this is the right strategy.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Anyone who disagrees with this signing should immediately purchase a Ducks jersey and stop voicing their opinions on LGW. How dare anyone criticize the almighty Caesar... I mean Holland?

Some posters here are really funny when they take this bandwagoner route.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Anyone who disagrees with this signing should immediately purchase a Ducks jersey and stop voicing their opinions on LGW. How dare anyone criticize the almighty Caesar... I mean Holland?

Some posters here are really funny when they take this bandwagoner route.

This is an overexaggeration and you know it.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

This is an overexaggeration and you know it.

Sadly, it's not.

A few posters here are pretty much that extreme. Just count how many, "go cheer for another team" posts you'll see. It happens quite often.

[Guest Crymson]

Sadly, it's not.

A few posters here are pretty much that extreme. Just count how many, "go cheer for another team" posts you'll see. It happens quite often.

Let's see what they're saying:

1) Holland is a moron.

2) This season will suck because the right moves were not made.

Now, tell me those don't reflect a "the sky is falling" attitude---one way overboard for those actually calling themselves fans. If they want to write everything off, then why even bother watching? Disagreement is normal---that's not what I was referring to at all. What I was making reference to was the behavior of those people who are making unequivocal and absolute statements about Ken Holland, about the team and about the coming season, and I'm sure you'll agree that a lot of that goes on here---and more lately than usual. Do you know what the only time was, in my experience, when such sentiments weren't present at all here? Answer: between the Stanley Cup win and the start of the '08-'09 season. Nobody could claim the sky was falling when the team had won the Cup, when the team had a goaltender coming off a stellar season and postseason, and when the team had just picked up the biggest free agent superstars in the league at a discount whilst losing nobody but Drake. Now, I'm not saying that the odd panic/defensive pessimism statement really bothers me, nor do I reasonably expect that they'll be absolutely absent from these boards---but the above was the only time when everyone was satisfied. And, frankly, right now it's getting ridiculous, and we've clearly got a boatload of spoiled fans on our hands.

If anyone wants to gain some appreciation for the organization, go try being an Islanders fan or a Leafs fan for a season. The fact is that we have one of the best front offices in the league, one of the best coaches in the league, one of the best teams in the league and one of the best organizations in the league in general. While I know that many hold the mentality of 'the season is a disappointment if the team does not win the Cup', and while I feel that it's reasonable in most cases to expect the team to achieve---except when they're dealing with uncontrollable factors of reality, i.e. widespread injuries---I don't think it'd hurt for people to show some gratitude to the organization and feel gracious that they've got a wonderful, consistently successful team to root for; and I don't think it's reasonable for people to go off and call the front office a gang of primates and/or declare the season a total loss on the basis of one move they disagree with. And if people are indeed saying such things, it makes me wonder why they don't just move on to a different team or just not watch the season; thus the comments to which you refer.

Edited August 7, 2009 by Crymson

[Frozen-Man 144]

For sure.

However, let's wait and see what Grier ends up signing for. Maybe he wanted a longer term deall.

Clearly Holland's not interested in signing anyone for more than a year, and I think this is the right strategy.

I think that is a brilliant move on his part, there is no telling what will happen with the hard cap that the NHL has and the large dip the cap may take because of the economy. Holland may have tons of cash to spend next year and be able to lock up or trade (with a heavily cap pressed team) to get some good assets. I think that being well under the cap will be great for the Wings next year, much more than picking up a marginally better player this year but losing that cap space for the next few years.

Sadly, it's not.

A few posters here are pretty much that extreme. Just count how many, "go cheer for another team" posts you'll see. It happens quite often.

There are a few posters like that but then there are guys like Micah who seem to do nothing but trash the Wings about almost every thing, from management, to coaching, to players. Forums like this always have people on the extreme, but they are on both sides of this argument, and sometimes the "go cheer for another team" comments are because guys get tired of coming here and having their team, players, management, and owners trashed nonstop. That is where the frustration and "go cheer for another team" comes from, if we wanted to read posts of people dumping on the Wings all the time we would go to http://letsgopens.com/ or some other team's fan site (this is not directed toward rational fan's discussions or critiques of the Wings but rather guys who conically gripe and complain).

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

All right, maybe some people are overreacting, but don't forget that our last memory of the Wings was watching Crosby skating the Cup at the JLA with Bettman smiling and clappng for him. That leaves some scarred memories for fans.

People were hoping for more out of this offseason. Instead, this team looks weaker now than last year, and in Hockeytown, it's either Cup or bust. Right now this team doesn't look that good compared to other top teams or to previous Wings teams.

Not to mention, we've signed players that aren't exactly known for their great work ethic and determination. For a team that looked unmotivated at times in the Finals, that's not a good sign.

If people want to panic, let them. It makes this site more wild and unpredictable. I don't mind that.

[Guest Crymson]

All right, maybe some people are overreacting, but don't forget that our last memory of the Wings was watching Crosby skating the Cup at the JLA with Bettman smiling and clappng for him. That leaves some scarred memories for fans.

People were hoping for more out of this offseason. Instead, this team looks weaker now than last year, and in Hockeytown, it's either Cup or bust. Right now this team doesn't look that good compared to other top teams or to previous Wings teams.

Not to mention, we've signed players that aren't exactly known for their great work ethic and determination. For a team that looked unmotivated at times in the Finals, that's not a good sign.

If people want to panic, let them. It makes this site more wild and unpredictable. I don't mind that.

The team was not unmotivated in the finals---they were injured to the brim in the finals. Examples:

• Lidstrom: Recovering from testicular surgery
• Rafalski: Multiple herniated discs and a separated shoulder
• Cleary: Groin tears
• Holmstrom: Undisclosed injury
• Datsyuk: Foot injury
• Ericsson: Recovering from appendicitis
• Franzen: Undisclosed injury

To sum up, that's the team's top defensive pairing and half of the top two lines, including the world's best defenseman and the world's best defensive forward.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

The team was not unmotivated in the finals---they were injured to the brim in the finals. Examples:

• Lidstrom: Recovering from testicular surgery
• Rafalski: Multiple herniated discs and a separated shoulder
• Cleary: Groin tears
• Holmstrom: Undisclosed injury
• Datsyuk: Foot injury
• Ericsson: Recovering from appendicitis
• Franzen: Undisclosed injury

To sum up, that's the team's top defensive pairing and half of the top two lines, including the world's best defenseman and the world's best defensive forward.

There were others who weren't injured that didn't get the job done in the clutch. Point is, people are upset because they wanted more grit on the 3rd and 4th lines, and feel that not having it is detrimental in the long run.

As I pointed out in another thread, other than 2002, when the Wings were loaded with HOF'ers, other Cup wins occurred with more checkers and gritty forwards in the lineup. This lineup has poor balance, and people are pissed about it.

[Frozen-Man 144]

People were hoping for more out of this offseason. Instead, this team looks weaker now than last year, and in Hockeytown, it's either Cup or bust. Right now this team doesn't look that good compared to other top teams or to previous Wings teams.

I agree this team looks weaker than last year but we knew that it would before last year started. We had the perfect storm for the cap era and the team didn't manage to take full advantage of it. We knew last year Hossa likely wouldn't stay because of cap reasons, Mule and Z were due to get HUGE raises and to a lesser extent Sammy and Huds were too, there is simply no way not matter what that the Wings on paper could possibly look as strong this year as they did last year. They had the benefit of players that they signed as reclamation projects who panned out big (and I assume this is what they are hoping for with Eaves and to a lesser extent Williams) and players who were were playing with RFA contracts well below their value. This was inevitable (although it turned out a little worse than most expected what with Hudler and all).

There were others who weren't injured that didn't get the job done in the clutch. Point is, people are upset because they wanted more grit on the 3rd and 4th lines, and feel that not having it is detrimental in the long run.

As I pointed out in another thread, other than 2002, when the Wings were loaded with HOF'ers, other Cup wins occurred with more checkers and gritty forwards in the lineup. This lineup has poor balance, and people are pissed about it.

I agree, I think that the team would benefit from someone with some grit and great checking skills but the thing is we never know what Kenny and Co. offered other free agents or what they wanted, perhaps other free agents that were somewhere in our price range wanted too many years or NTCs or something else that the management thought made them unrealistic options.

[dteowner 20]

I'm not sure how disagreeing with one decision means that we think Holland sucks. I expect that Holland couldn't get some of the other folks to consider a 1 year hitch, so we got Willie. All this "root for another team" crap is just silly.

Overall, Willie won't be too bad except for one issue--Babs has a hard-on for a right-shooting forward on the 2nd PP. Willie proved without question that he was completely and totally inept in that position a few years ago and there's no reason to assume anything has changed in the meantime. Willie will man the point and he will suck but Babs will leave him there anyway. That's the downside. At even strength, Willie's basically a $1.5Mil placeholder, which isn't unreasonable.

On the good side, LGW has a clear winner for 09-10 Designated Whipping Boy.

[titanium2 867]

Yeah, what the hell does Ken Holland know about running a hockey club? (I mean aside from winning)

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I'm not sure how disagreeing with one decision means that we think Holland sucks. I expect that Holland couldn't get some of the other folks to consider a 1 year hitch, so we got Willie. All this "root for another team" crap is just silly.

Overall, Willie won't be too bad except for one issue--Babs has a hard-on for a right-shooting forward on the 2nd PP. Willie proved without question that he was completely and totally inept in that position a few years ago and there's no reason to assume anything has changed in the meantime. Willie will man the point and he will suck but Babs will leave him there anyway. That's the downside. At even strength, Willie's basically a $1.5Mil placeholder, which isn't unreasonable.

On the good side, LGW has a clear winner for 09-10 Designated Whipping Boy.

Extremes. Saying and implying things like the season will be a wash, this is the worst offseason ever, Holland is a moron, Williams is more useless than a slow moving tortise triggers these reactions when they are so easy to avoid. Not saying you specifically have done this but there have been plenty of examples similar to these lately. And none of these are even remotely true and can easily be avoided. To me that's not discussion or debate. It's just loud yelling.

If Williams was so awful he wouldn't be in the NHL right now. And Holland is still one of the best GMs in the business. And the Wings are still one of the best teams in the league despite this signing or what Jason Williams does or does not do.

Williams isn't the ideal signing but my god, you would've though another Hiroshima went off given the reaction in here. I understand frustration and emotion but you get some reactions that show people acting like a bunch of spoiled whiney kids. It's not that bad.

Edited August 8, 2009 by SouthernWingsFan

[Guest Crymson]

There were others who weren't injured that didn't get the job done in the clutch. Point is, people are upset because they wanted more grit on the 3rd and 4th lines, and feel that not having it is detrimental in the long run.

As I pointed out in another thread, other than 2002, when the Wings were loaded with HOF'ers, other Cup wins occurred with more checkers and gritty forwards in the lineup. This lineup has poor balance, and people are pissed about it.

The #1 person who wasn't injured and didn't get the job done? Hossa. He admitted it. And he did have motivation. Lots of it. Winning the Cup was, of course, much of it, as was not losing to his former team. Unfortunately, the latter apparently provided him with a lot of pressure, and he cracked under that pressure.

Poor balance? This team has had 'poor balance', then---in the sense of grit etc.---in every year since the lockout. And I don't think that most who are complaining of the signing of Williams have what you're referring to here on their minds. They mostly either just flat-out dislike Williams or would rather have had Prospal or Zherdev or some other random one in the bunch. So I truly don't think you're on base as far as what people are pissed about surrounding the Williams signing.

[Doc Holiday 0]

We don't have grier. He may or may not have been better for this team than Williams.

No need to start a big giant fight about it.

[LeftWinger 5,153]

Everyone complaining about not having a grittier 3rd and 4th, lets look:

2008-2009:

Sammy Filppula Hudler

Maltby Draper Kopecky

(Meech)

2009-2010 (possible 3rd and 4th)

Eaves Helm Cleary (or Leino either or can be 2nd or 3rd line)

Maltby Draper Williams

Oulahen (McGrath)

I guess for those of you who have been clammering about North American style Hockey, those lines should moisten you up!

[Guest Crymson]

Everyone complaining about not having a grittier 3rd and 4th, lets look:

2008-2009:

Sammy Filppula Hudler

Maltby Draper Kopecky

(Meech)

2009-2010 (possible 3rd and 4th)

Eaves Helm Cleary (or Leino either or can be 2nd or 3rd line)

Maltby Draper Williams

Oulahen (McGrath)

I guess for those of you who have been clammering about North American style Hockey, those lines should moisten you up!

Cleary will not be on the third line.