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The Chris Osgood discussion thread

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The stats may be fairly even, but of the two, Howard has been the more consistent. Early on he let in some brutal softies but is now playing a lot more steady, though he still has some issues with rebound control.

Ozzy on the other hand has had flashes of brilliance, but then continues to let in absolutely back breaking, momentum killing goals.

I like Ozzy, but he's the seasoned veteran and multiple Cup winner. He needs to get his s*** together, because the hot/cold thing has gotten old, especially on a team plagued with injuries.

Harold, I consider you a very knowledgeable poster, and respect your opinion. But I find the above bolded comment very telling.

To use your "hot/cold" analogy:

When you turn a faucet on, the water that comes out is cold - even when you're turning the "H" spigot. It takes a bit for the water to warm up, so you gotta let it run. Immediately turning the spigot off because the water isn't "hot yet" doesn't do any good whatsoever. The water won't get any hotter if it's OFF, for Pete's sake. And when you come back, hours later, turn the "H" spigot on again, and then lament the fact that there's still no hot water, who's to blame?

The fact that Osgood is playing as well as he is, with little to no playing time, is a testament to the fact that he is "working hard in practice". If Babcock wants him to get "hot", he's going to have to turn the spigot and let it run, rather than harping about how the water's not getting any hotter, no matter how long he leaves it off.

Osgood has proven, for years, that when his Team needs him, truly needs him, he'll be there. Babcock needs to bear that in mind, and allow Ozzie to get back to where he needs to be. He's not that far off, as it stands.

He's not going to get there from the bench.

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After 20+ seasons of competitive hockey, Ozzie should know it makes sense to ride the hot hand, and unfortunately, at this point in time, that isn't him. Howard simply gives us a better chance to win.

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Osgood is a fantastic goalie... but to those saying he hasn't struggled this year... get real... he's let in some amazing softies, and his five-hole is, as many have jokingly stated, easily the worst in the NHL right now. Honestly.

The difference in goaltending is especially evident in the last two Chicago games. Statistically, Osgood had a better outing than Howard, only because they let in the same number of goals, but Osgood on slightly more shots. But look at the quality of goals allowed, and the timing, and you'll realize why Osgood is getting this treatment. Howard's 3rd allowed was when the game was already irrelevant, but prior to that it was still a contest... Osgood let in two stinkers within minutes of each other to end the second period and completely demoralized the team... Same score, but a big difference in goaltending.

The biggest problem is obviously that the Wings got shut out in both of those games... but if we are to isolate on goaltending, Osgood has been a major disappointment for a team desperate for a savior. To say that he needs games to find his rhythm is fine, but he's never been a rhythm goaltender.... I mean, the man's topped 50 games started twice this decade, not exactly a workhorse.... if serving backup to a guy who's NHL career was on life-support before this season doesn't motivate Osgood, nothing will.

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I don't think that anything Ozzie said is out of character for him. But I do think he's frustrated because how can he improve if he's not given the opportunity to actually play in some games. I know that we're struggling this season and it's great that Howard has stepped up, but we don't want to ruin him in his first year with too much pressure. I think he'll do great and he's proved himself to me when I had big doubts at the beginning of the season. Hopefully once we start getting some more people back Osgood will have more chances to play.

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Jimmy Howard's last ten starts: 5-4-1 Points: 11

Chris Osgood's last ten starts: 4-4-2 Points: 10

Oh really? Think about the last ten starts for the two goalies and get back to me on "the Wings can't afford the luxury..." What luxury is that? It sure isn't showing in the stats of who's winning and collecting points for this team.

The luxury of spotting opponents a soft goal or two. Ozzie is becoming notorious for them.

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Have you watched hockey the last 5-8 years?

Get back to me when Howard starts slumping. Osgood's not one to have a bad attitude and he battles, but if things keep getting uglier between he and Babcock, it absolutely will not be for the best for the team.

Yeah, actually I have...

Apparently the string of shutouts and very few goals scored of late is not the reason why the Wings have been losing.

Be active, donate the the site and or come out and join fellow LGW Members watching games!

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But the fact remains, as a professional, he's got to get ready for what he's given. A true starter would seize the opportunity in any game they're given.

His game against Nashville was fairly close to spectacular. Where was the "...if Ozzie had a good night, he'd have started the next game" mentality then?

Against Chicago, Osgood let in two really questionable goals at the close of the second period. Babcock stated after the game that those two goals "killed" them, and that they didn't play with any energy in the 3rd period.

Ummmmmm.....

The Wings posted FIVE shots on goal in the 1st, and FIVE shots on goal in the 2nd. It appears that they didn't play with any energy in either of those periods, either. Coincidentally, they posted TEN shots on goal in the 3rd, and Osgood was spectacular during that period. The Wings were outshot 35-20, and were never even IN that Game. Ozzie gave up 3 goals on 35 shots. He's been sitting since that Game.

Howard faced the 'Hawks on the second night of back-to-back games for them. He allowed a goal 30 seconds into the 2nd period, another less than 4 minutes into the 3rd period, and another with less than 2 minutes in the final period. The Wings outshot the Hawks 33-31, and Howard allowed 3 goals on those 31 shots. I don't recall any comments about how it was "killing" the Team, who was outplaying the 'Hawks to that point, to have both of those goals go in at the very start of the period, and then another at the very close of the game. Howard has played every game since.

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Harold, I consider you a very knowledgeable poster, and respect your opinion. But I find the above bolded comment very telling.

To use your "hot/cold" analogy:

When you turn a faucet on, the water that comes out is cold - even when you're turning the "H" spigot. It takes a bit for the water to warm up, so you gotta let it run. Immediately turning the spigot off because the water isn't "hot yet" doesn't do any good whatsoever. The water won't get any hotter if it's OFF, for Pete's sake. And when you come back, hours later, turn the "H" spigot on again, and then lament the fact that there's still no hot water, who's to blame?

The fact that Osgood is playing as well as he is, with little to no playing time, is a testament to the fact that he is "working hard in practice". If Babcock wants him to get "hot", he's going to have to turn the spigot and let it run, rather than harping about how the water's not getting any hotter, no matter how long he leaves it off.

Osgood has proven, for years, that when his Team needs him, truly needs him, he'll be there. Babcock needs to bear that in mind, and allow Ozzie to get back to where he needs to be. He's not that far off, as it stands.

He's not going to get there from the bench.

As many have stated, allowing an Osgood return to form in actual games simply isn't a luxury this team has... especially considering he hasn't grabbed the reigns with any real tenacity any time he's been given a start... and contrary to your claims, he has been poor in net.. a simple glance back through the highlights of his games played would more than accentuate that point. He's made a habit of letting in very stoppable goals at crucial moments.

Osgood isn't a workhorse goaltender... I'm not sure he'd be capable of Luongo or Broduer type minutes either, not because of skill, but because of the likelihood of sustaining an injury or wearing him too thin before the playoffs. He's also never shown that he is the type of goaltender that plays better with a lofty load.

If you look at the numbers, they already are splitting games (18 starts for ozzie, 21 for Howard... and the only reason Howard is ahead is because Osgood was ill for a while).... but to use your analogy... one faucet has turned out heat rather consistently (not overwhelmingly so tho), while the other has occasionally come out warm... sometimes cold... and sometimes it's just to rusty colored to even try touching it. My guess is there is favoritism at play here, and you most likely would have taken the opposite stance when Hasek was playing poorly and Osgood was stealing the show.

Also, sorry, Osgood hasn't shown any superhuman deified ability to save the team when the team needs him... He's won two cups, so I'd say he played a vital role in helping the team win in those two instances... but he's also played 13 seasons with us, and has more early round flops on his resume than cup hoisting performances... To say that anything is a guarantee, or even more certain, with Osgood in net simply isn't so.

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The difference in goaltending is especially evident in the last two Chicago games. Statistically, Osgood had a better outing than Howard, only because they let in the same number of goals, but Osgood on slightly more shots. But look at the quality of goals allowed, and the timing, and you'll realize why Osgood is getting this treatment. Howard's 3rd allowed was when the game was already irrelevant, but prior to that it was still a contest... Osgood let in two stinkers within minutes of each other to end the second period and completely demoralized the team... Same score, but a big difference in goaltending.

LOL....as I posted above....

How well were the Wings playing before those two goals. Answer: They weren't. You state that Howard let in the final goal once the game was "irrelevant".

Guess what? From the drop of the puck in the first game against Chicago, that Game was "irrelevant". The Wings were never even in that Game. Period. At least Howard had a "contest" to work with. Osgood faced a shooting gallery, with NOTHING going on at the other end of the rink, and no interest in GETTING anything going. They had nothing that Game. Period.

..... if serving backup to a guy who's NHL career was on life-support before this season doesn't motivate Osgood, nothing will.

When does "motivation" become action, when there's no opportunity to do anything with that motivation?

Or perhaps you're suggesting that Osgood should be able to improve his game, and post Wins and better stats, from the bench?

And if you're going to use Osgood's game against Chicago as an example of "amazing softies", and the "worst five hole in the League right now", you might want to go back and take a look at Howard's game against Edmonton.

The 1st and 3rd goals Howard gave up were easily some of the worst we've seen this year - no contest. Both of those goals were, quite literally, pathetic. And the other two weren't precisely fantastic shots, either.

The Dallas game wasn't a shining example of "quality goaltending", either.

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As many have stated, allowing an Osgood return to form in actual games simply isn't a luxury this team has... especially considering he hasn't grabbed the reigns with any real tenacity any time he's been given a start... and contrary to your claims, he has been poor in net.. a simple glance back through the highlights of his games played would more than accentuate that point. He's made a habit of letting in very stoppable goals at crucial moments.

A habit? I can think of two games where that was a problem. And he has only one less point than Howard in the last ten games they each have played.

Osgood isn't a workhorse goaltender... I'm not sure he'd be capable of Luongo or Broduer type minutes either, not because of skill, but because of the likelihood of sustaining an injury or wearing him too thin before the playoffs. He's also never shown that he is the type of goaltender that plays better with a lofty load.

And he isn't getting either a lofty load or a split load. He is getting a backup load.

If you look at the numbers, they already are splitting games (18 starts for ozzie, 21 for Howard... and the only reason Howard is ahead is because Osgood was ill for a while).... but to use your analogy... one faucet has turned out heat rather consistently (not overwhelmingly so tho), while the other has occasionally come out warm... sometimes cold... and sometimes it's just to rusty colored to even try touching it. My guess is there is favoritism at play here, and you most likely would have taken the opposite stance when Hasek was playing poorly and Osgood was stealing the show.

And I would think it is skewed towards Osgood's starts because Osgood started quite a few games when Howard had a terrible game in Sweden.

Consecutive starts:

OCTOBER

1 Osgood

1 Howard

6 Osgood

1 Howard

1 Osgood

1 Howard

1 Osgood

NOVEMBER

3 Osgood (4 in a row total)

4 Howard

1 Osgood

1 Howard

1 Osgood

1 Howard

1 Osgood

DECEMBER

2 Howard

1 Osgood

2 Howard

1 Osgood

3 Howard

1 Osgood

3 Howard (May be four after tonight)

Also, sorry, Osgood hasn't shown any superhuman deified ability to save the team when the team needs him... He's won two cups, so I'd say he played a vital role in helping the team win in those two instances... but he's also played 13 seasons with us, and has more early round flops on his resume than cup hoisting performances... To say that anything is a guarantee, or even more certain, with Osgood in net simply isn't so.

And Howard hasn't shown a superhuman ability to save the team either. He has been progressively been getting more starts and Osgood has been progressively playing less and less which is making him more rusty and cold. Not a winning formula if you want him to play in the playoffs.

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LOL....as I posted above....

How well were the Wings playing before those two goals. Answer: They weren't. You state that Howard let in the final goal once the game was "irrelevant".

Guess what? From the drop of the puck in the first game against Chicago, that Game was "irrelevant". The Wings were never even in that Game. Period. At least Howard had a "contest" to work with. Osgood faced a shooting gallery, with NOTHING going on at the other end of the rink, and no interest in GETTING anything going. They had nothing that Game. Period.

When does "motivation" become action, when there's no opportunity to do anything with that motivation?

Or perhaps you're suggesting that Osgood should be able to improve his game, and post Wins and better stats, from the bench?

And if you're going to use Osgood's game against Chicago as an example of "amazing softies", and the "worst five hole in the League right now", you might want to go back and take a look at Howard's game against Edmonton.

The 1st and 3rd goals Howard gave up were easily some of the worst we've seen this year - no contest. Both of those goals were, quite literally, pathetic. And the other two weren't precisely fantastic shots, either.

The Dallas game wasn't a shining example of "quality goaltending", either.

The team played terribly in front of Osgood against Chicago, no doubt... but the game was 1-0 before he let in two supremely awful goals. It took it from a game we could have potentially pulled out of our rear-ends (despite not deserving the win) to a game we had no chance of winning. Howard couldn't be blamed for any of the goals he allowed against Chicago.

Now, you're using absurd logic. I used an analogy of similar opponents to illustrate the difference in playing that has occurred throughout the season with these two netminders (a single instance to paint a broader picture).. a difference most everyone on these message boards has expressed seeing.. then, you counter with a game Howard played that serves as nothing more than an isolated glimpse at a poor game, one I could counter with a myriad of clippings from the defense you use for Osgood thus far "he's played well, let him play through one bad game"... " They (the team) had nothing that Game".... etc. The Edmonton game is hardly a working picture of Howard's play this season... The same simply can't be said for Osgood.

lol........ yes, i'm sure Osgood won't get another chance at the goaltending job... absurdity. As I said, even despite being sick for weeks, Osgood is right with Howard on the number of starts... You're going pretty overboard when you're implying that Osgood won't get a chance to redeem himself (the season is at the half-way point, and he's played half the games... pretty safe to say Howard isn't getting 43 straight starts from this point on). In fact, as I've mentioned in previous threads, Osgood plays better when he's been challenged and confronted.... he also plays better when he's been given "mental vacations" from the net (see: 2008-09).

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As many have stated, allowing an Osgood return to form in actual games simply isn't a luxury this team has... especially considering he hasn't grabbed the reigns with any real tenacity any time he's been given a start... and contrary to your claims, he has been poor in net.. a simple glance back through the highlights of his games played would more than accentuate that point. He's made a habit of letting in very stoppable goals at crucial moments.

You're acting as though Osgood is playing poorly. He's NOT. Period. He certainly hasn't been playing poorly enough to be benched. If he was playing badly you might have a point.

He's not. So you don't.

Your point about letting in "stoppable goals at crucial moments" would be easily illustrated in the games where Howard has faced a Team with ANY goal-scoring ability.

Take your own suggestion and watch the highlights from the Edmonton, Dallas, and Chicago games.

Osgood isn't a workhorse goaltender... I'm not sure he'd be capable of Luongo or Broduer type minutes either, not because of skill, but because of the likelihood of sustaining an injury or wearing him too thin before the playoffs. He's also never shown that he is the type of goaltender that plays better with a lofty load.

Two of his best statistical years in a nearly 20 year career have been his first on Long Island and his only full Season in St. Louis.

He played 66 Games in the first example. He played 67 games in the second example.

Next......

If you look at the numbers, they already are splitting games (18 starts for ozzie, 21 for Howard... and the only reason Howard is ahead is because Osgood was ill for a while).... but to use your analogy... one faucet has turned out heat rather consistently (not overwhelmingly so tho), while the other has occasionally come out warm... sometimes cold... and sometimes it's just to rusty colored to even try touching it. My guess is there is favoritism at play here, and you most likely would have taken the opposite stance when Hasek was playing poorly and Osgood was stealing the show.

It only appears that they're splitting games because Osgood got the majority of Starts in the beginning of the Season, whereas Howard rarely played until Osgood got the flu.

Since Ozzie's bout with the flu, he has not been given consistent playing time. And he's ONLY been thrown into Games against the best Teams in the League, after sitting on the bench for a week.

You keep telling yourself that Howard's success has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he's facing terrible Teams, almost exclusively, and that Osgood's hot/cold appearing performance has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he's been thrown to the wolves after being benched for extended periods of time and then expected to come up with a performance in which, (in Babcock's exact words), "our goaltending was going to have to be outstanding", after having played two games all month, behind a Team on the second night of back-t0-backs, and against the #1 Team in the Conference.

Yeah. Nothing whatsoever to do with it. Facing off against Columbus and Tampa Bay and Anaheim is just as much a challenge. Easily.

Also, sorry, Osgood hasn't shown any superhuman deified ability to save the team when the team needs him... He's won two cups, so I'd say he played a vital role in helping the team win in those two instances... but he's also played 13 seasons with us, and has more early round flops on his resume than cup hoisting performances... To say that anything is a guarantee, or even more certain, with Osgood in net simply isn't so.

Take a look at all Wings goaltending throughout the past 20 years. Osgood is, hands down, the most successful Wings goaltender of the modern era. The "early round flops" most certainly cannot be attributed to Osgood. Even that Game 7 in 1994 against the Sharks cannot be completely blamed on Osgood.

If a goaltender lasts long enough in this League, it's almost a statistical certainty that he's going to have more "flops" in the Post Season than Cup Hoistings performances.

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I think the most troubling thing is that Osgood nailed the whole "Osgood just needs to be working hard in practice..." Osgood's right. He's on the verge of 400 wins and has been a part of 3 Stanley Cup teams, 2 as the starter. He's proven enough.

I don't buy it. In sports you are as good as your last game played. There is no automatic correlation between past and future performance. The only thing you can do is work hard today to prepare for tomorrow. That is what made Hasek one of the top 3 modern era goalies. He was one of the first on and off the ice. Osgood, on the other hand, does not have a reputation for working hard in practice. Recent regular season performances and the current need for points makes Babcock's decision relatively easy.

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He seems to contradict himself. He talks about doing what's best for the team on one hand, then basically says he feels he should be playing on the other. If he really wants what's best for the team....well the current situation is what's best for the team. He had the job at the start of the season and played very inconsistently IMO. Howard got the opportunity and played much better. His game started to come around. Howard is just stopping more pucks period. Right now without any offense, giving up a weak goal will most likely cost us the game.

Chris mentioned he thought he gave up a weak goal in the 3rd period. Maybe that's the real problem here because I thought all 3 were pretty weak. Even in the games where his save % was above .900 he still gave up some very marginal goals. Howard has given up some softies as well, but his are mostly because of positional miscues. There aren't many goals going through Howards, that's the key. That's a good indicator of how a goalie is playing. When you start gettig these soft goals through the body, under the arms, between the legs, that's the sign of bad goaltending IMO.

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I don't buy it. In sports you are as good as your last game played. There is no automatic correlation between past and future performance. The only thing you can do is work hard today to prepare for tomorrow. That is what made Hasek one of the top 3 modern era goalies. He was one of the first on and off the ice. Osgood, on the other hand, does not have a reputation for working hard in practice. Recent regular season performances and the current need for points makes Babcock's decision relatively easy.

So you base how hard he works in practice on.....

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Babcock knows what he is doing. Osgood's career is winding down, Howard's is just getting started. Osgood has some of the worst statisics in the league, Howard doesn't. Osgood deserves starts after Howard has a iffy performance. The goalie with the hot hand plays, we don't have buffer in the standings for Osgood to work out the kinks in a couple games, he needs to earn back to back appearances just like Howard does.

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Babcock knows what he is doing. Osgood's career is winding down, Howard's is just getting started. Osgood has some of the worst statisics in the league, Howard doesn't. Osgood deserves starts after Howard has a iffy performance. The goalie with the hot hand plays, we don't have buffer in the standings for Osgood to work out the kinks in a couple games, he needs to earn back to back appearances just like Howard does.

What happened in Nashville, then? Was that just a lucky game by him or what?

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Howard has given up some softies as well, but his are mostly because of positional miscues. There aren't many goals going through Howards, that's the key. That's a good indicator of how a goalie is playing. When you start gettig these soft goals through the body, under the arms, between the legs, that's the sign of bad goaltending IMO.

LOL. There are fans who dub Howard the "35 Hole". For examples, see the 1st and 3rd goals allowed against Edmonton, and Kane's goal to close out the 3rd against the 'Hawks. There were many more examples toward the beginning of the Season, but those are the most recent.

And you're right about the "positional miscues" argument.

Take a good look. Against Teams who exhibit any true goal-scoring acumen, Howard looks overwhelmed, like a fish out of water. Again....See the Dallas Game, and the Chicago Game in particular. He's typically caught swimming around on his belly on the ice while the play buzzes around him.

See Rafalski's two "saves" the other night, and Helm's "save" as well.

Again....against "poor" Teams he appears to be fine. The Wings cannot go the whole Season playing against bottom feeders. Sooner or later, they're going to have to face the better Teams in the League.

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Guest lilja4mvp
His game against Nashville was fairly close to spectacular. Where was the "...if Ozzie had a good night, he'd have started the next game" mentality then?

Against Chicago, Osgood let in two really questionable goals at the close of the second period. Babcock stated after the game that those two goals "killed" them, and that they didn't play with any energy in the 3rd period.

Ummmmmm.....

The Wings posted FIVE shots on goal in the 1st, and FIVE shots on goal in the 2nd. It appears that they didn't play with any energy in either of those periods, either. Coincidentally, they posted TEN shots on goal in the 3rd, and Osgood was spectacular during that period. The Wings were outshot 35-20, and were never even IN that Game. Ozzie gave up 3 goals on 35 shots. He's been sitting since that Game.

Howard faced the 'Hawks on the second night of back-to-back games for them. He allowed a goal 30 seconds into the 2nd period, another less than 4 minutes into the 3rd period, and another with less than 2 minutes in the final period. The Wings outshot the Hawks 33-31, and Howard allowed 3 goals on those 31 shots. I don't recall any comments about how it was "killing" the Team, who was outplaying the 'Hawks to that point, to have both of those goals go in at the very start of the period, and then another at the very close of the game. Howard has played every game since.

you can bold every word in every post you make and it won't change the fact that osgood is brutal

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since the similar record has been brought up a few times for the last ten games I figured I'd post that data:

Howard: Last 10 games:

31 shots…. 28 saves… 3 GA…. 0 GF

40 shots…. 39 saves…. 1 GA…. 0 GF

21 shots…. 17 saves…. 4 GA…. 3 GF

30 shots…. 30 saces…. 0 GA…. 3 GF

32 shots….. 30 saves… 2 GA…. 3 GF

27 shots…. 25 saves…. 2 GA…. 3 GF

26 shots…. 25 saves…. 1GA….. 0 GF

29 shots…. 28 saves…. 1 GA…. 3 GF

36 shots…. 32 saves…. 4 GA…. 1 GF

30 shots…. 29 saves…. 1 GA…. 4 GF

Shots: 302 shots faced…. 283 saved (.937 %). 19 GA… 20 GF

Osgood: Last 10 games:

35 shots… 32 saves… 3 GA…. 0GF

35 shots… 33 saves… 2 GA…. 3 GF

26 shots… 23 saves…. 3 GA (4 including Shootout)…. 3 GF

17 shots… 14 saves…. 3 GA… 0 GF

25 shots… 22 saves…. 3 GA…. 1 GF

20 shots… 18 saves…. 2 GA…. 1 GF

28 shots… 23 saves…. 5 GA…. 1 GF

34 shots… 33 saves…. 1 GA…. 1 GF (2 if including SO)

29 shots…. 29 saves…. 0 GA…. 2 GF

21 shots…. 20 saves… 1 GA…. 3 GF

Shots: 270 shots faced…. 247 saves made (.914)… 23 GA… 15 GF

Mind you, this is pretty subjective, since Osgood's last 10 extend back to when we had a healthy team (only Franzen was out at the time).

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^^^Exactly.

Howard didn't play because it was a back-to-back not because he lost and it was Osgood's chance. It's not as unfair of a situation as Osgood makes it out to be. He's getting his chances when Howard loses.

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Howard didn't play because it was a back-to-back not because he lost and it was Osgood's chance.

Howard didn't play against Nashville because he got the easier Game, the night before, with a well rested Team in front of him, and faced the bottom feeder Duckies.

Just as has happened all Season long.

Most coaches play the "hot" hand, the "better" goaltender against the better Teams, in the tougher situations. Babcock is doing the exact opposite. It's been a pattern all Season long.

Howard is being coddled, and allowed to pad his stats against the worst Teams in the League.

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