The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Outsider 42]

I do think Osgood should start in the playoffs. Just going to make that clear. Osgood is a goalie that usually is all or nothing with his performances, and I believe Babcock is waiting for Osgood to be great before he gives him the reins for more then a game.

Firstly: He was "great" against Nashville. And he was "rewarded" for that "great" performance by three straight Games on the bench. As I posted in my original post.....way back on page 1.....

So much for the "....if Ozzie had had a good night.....he would have started....." mentality.

Secondly: How is he supposed to attain any level, (at all), let alone "greatness", when he's plays one game, then sits for 3 or 4, regardless of how he performs in that one game?

What Babcock is saying is that Osgood needs to show that he can "earn" his Starts - that he can "do the job".

What Osgood is saying is that he's already proven that he has the ability to "earn" his Starts - that he can "do the job". Now all he needs is for Babcock to get out of the way and let him do the job he's proven himself capable of doing.

Babcock wants Ozzie at his best, because he knows, (correctly so), that Osgood at his best gives this TEAM the best possible chance of success.

We have seen what a "hot" Howard can do. Howard, "at his best", is 2-3 in his last 5, and 5-5 in his last 10. And THAT is against some really terrible Teams. We've also seen what a "hot" Osgood is capable of. "At his best", Osgood is one of the best goaltenders in the NHL. Period.

Get Ozzie back in the saddle, on top of his Game, and the Team will respond. They have a modicum of trust in Howard, based on his play to date this Season. Their confidence in a "hot" Osgood is exponentially greater than that, and hopefully will show up on the scoreboard, as well.

But you've got to get the man playing. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

[Carman 387]

So being "great" for Osgood is letting in two goals. Good to know.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Someone is just angry that Osgood is turning into the Ville Leino of the NHL goaltenders.

If you aren't willing to discuss the topic like an adult why are you even here?

[Carman 387]

If you aren't willing to discuss the topic like an adult why are you even here?

If you aren't willing to discuss the topic like an adult why are you even here?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

If you aren't willing to discuss the topic like an adult why are you even here?

[Carman 387]

[Outsider 42]

Someone is just angry that Osgood is turning into the Ville Leino of the NHL goaltenders.

AHAHAHA. You're funnier than even I gave you credit for, Carman. Remember.....

That's what everyone said when Osgood was waived by the Wings in 2001.

That's what everyone said when Osgood was traded to the Blues in 2003.

That's what everyone said when Osgood injured himself in Training Camp in 2005, and Legace "won" the Starting job while Oz was on a conditioning stint in Grand Rapids.

That's what everyone said when Osgood backed up The Dominator in 2007.

That's what everyone said when Osgood split games with Dom in 2008.

That's what everyone said when Osgood "lost" the Starting job to Ty Conklin last Season.

Chris Osgood has been written off so many times, by so many people, for so many years. And yet.....and yet.....

He just keeps picking himself up, dusting himself off, and spitting in the eyes of those who have declared him "done!". Over, and over, and over again. Notice a pattern?

The latest rounds of "ptooey!" came (one), with a Stanley Cup Ring attached, and (two), with two Conn Smythe worthy performances in goal.

Ville Leino would KILL to have a career half as successful as Chris Osgood.

You're comparing apples to pencils.

[Guest zackmorris]

See ya Chris. Get the f*** out of here if tihs is going to be your attitude. You've been playing like s***, no matter what the million Ozzie fanboys will say. Babcock isn't someone to be questioned.

If this keeps up, s***can him. We don't need something like this happening on a team notorious for having a better chemistry and environment than this.

Play better and you'll start more. Lose the blinders, it's not about shots on goal and save percentages and a bunch of bulls*** on paper. It's about Howard making stops that keep us in games and Ozzie killing our momentum. That's it. If he can't face up to it then f*** off, we don't need you here.

[Carman 387]

No all I'm trying to say in Osgood will be good in the playoffs and most likely later in the year. But he struggled in the regular season last year, and is struggling early this season. He will turn it around, but Howard also needs start because he is the future and we have to know what he is capable of.

[Outsider 42]

So being "great" for Osgood is letting in two goals. Good to know.

Boy....you are obtuse, aren't you.....?

I'd say that letting in two goals, in OT, against a Team which had been averaging between 3 and 4 goals per game, a Team which has been on a goal-scoring TEAR of late, while playing with a depleted Team in front of you, after having not played regularly for over a MONTH.....

Yeah. I'd say that Osgood was "great" against Nashville.

Definitely.

[Outsider 42]

You keep making the same assinine argument about compete level. Like somehow lesser teams in the standings are not able to score at the NHL level. Give it a rest already. Your point has been made about 15 times in 2 threads that I know of and its not even that compelling an argument in the first place.

Here's one for you instead: How about comparing Osgoods shootout record against Howards. That should be interesting.

LOL...talk about cherry picking stats.

Yes, it's true. Osgood has never been the best shoot-out goaltender, and most shooters know his tendencies very well.

Howard has been much better in shoot-outs. As was Conklin last year. Odd.....

I wonder if Howard will fare as well once Players build up a "book" on him, too.

Rather like Raycroft. And Hiller. And LeClaire. And Mason. And Price. And Toskala. Oh....

And Legace.

[HenryMalredo 2]

He just keeps picking himself up, dusting himself off, and spitting in the eyes of those who have declared him "done!". Over, and over, and over again. Notice a pattern?

He hasn't done that yet this year. Any times Osgood gotten hot and won back the starting job (which he has lost manny, many times), its because he's had to earn it. Osgood is no Broduer or Roy and he's getting older, the Wings can't just risk giving him the job if someone is playing better.

[Outsider 42]

See ya Chris. Get the f*** out of here if tihs is going to be your attitude. You've been playing like s***, no matter what the million Ozzie fanboys will say. Babcock isn't someone to be questioned.

If this keeps up, s***can him. We don't need something like this happening on a team notorious for having a better chemistry and environment than this.

Play better and you'll start more. Lose the blinders, it's not about shots on goal and save percentages and a bunch of bulls*** on paper. It's about Howard making stops that keep us in games and Ozzie killing our momentum. That's it. If he can't face up to it then f*** off, we don't need you here.

Unfortunately for you, (and those who share your all to common mindset), Babcock and Holland disagree vehemently with you.

You see....they realize that the wings DO need Osgood.

Oh...and Osgood is absolutely right in this instance.

Was Babcock "to be questioned" when he decided to go with Legace against Edmonton in 2006? I have it on rather good authority that he was, in fact, "questioned" - and by two of the most consummate "Team guys" in the history of the Game.

He chose to ignore their advice. It got him exactly what those "two", (and others close to the situation), advised him it likely would.

Babcock is not interested in Osgood "playing better". What he wants is for Osgood to be at his best. Recognize the difference. And learn to read between the lines of what Babs is saying, and doing.

For you to even question Osgood's dedication to this Team, and his status as one of the best "Team guys" in the League is ridiculous in the extreme. What was it that Babcock stated earlier this month....right before Ozzie's start against Nashville?.....

From MLive....

"Ozzie’s a good pro and a good teammate,'' coach Mike Babcock said. "Part of his job, just like (Kris) Draper and (Kirk) Maltby, is to help these kids get better. He’s done a real good job, he’s always supportive. He’s a proud guy, too. He’ll be ready to play tonight.’’

With all due respect, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

[Outsider 42]

He hasn't done that yet this year. Any times Osgood gotten hot and won back the starting job (which he has lost manny, many times), its because he's had to earn it. Osgood is no Broduer or Roy and he's getting older, the Wings can't just risk giving him the job if someone is playing better.

Once again....as is the point Osgood himself is trying to make in the article, and the point which I, and others, have been trying to make....

He hasn't been given an opportunity to do so. If and when he actually gets the opportunity, he'll make good on it. Listen to Babcock....he knows it too. He's expecting it. What he's doing right now is "poking" at Oz, keeping him on the bench, because he knows what effect that will have on him when he finally does give him a real opportunity.

As for the last sentence....again....as I, and others, have been pointing out.....

Howard's play can be nearly directly attributed to the level of competition he's facing. Are you honestly going to sit there, after watching him scramble around against Dallas and Chicago, and state with a straight face that Howard's record and stats would be remotely close to what they've been lately had be been facing tougher competition than Columbus, St. Louis, Tampa Bay, and the like?

Seriously?

Why do you think Babcock is "poking" and "jabbing" at Osgood NOW.....? Hmmm.....???

Take a look at the schedule for next month.

Babcock knows that he's got to get Ozzie on track for the spate of Games coming up. He can play Howard against the Ducks, and the Isles, and Carolina. He's had the luxury of relying on Howard for the past month because of the weakness of the schedule. You think it's simply "coincidence" that Osgood was brought off the bench to face all of the tough Teams on the schedule, with the exception of the second game against Chicago, (on their second night of back-to-backs)?

Babcock knows that he NEEDS Osgood to be on top of his Game for San Jose, and Chicago, and Washington and Pittsburgh. That's why the "poking" and "jabbing" has begun.

[Statts 4]

People seem to be missing the point.

The Wings are getting the goaltending they need to win games from Howard. Why fix what ain't broke?

Once Howard slumps, Ozzie will be given a chance to win #1 spot back.

What's wrong with rewarding a player for playing good?

[Guest Lidstromboli]

but Statts there was that one start where Osgood was good and then they played Jimmy!!!!! No justiCE!!

[HenryMalredo 2]

People seem to be missing the point.

The Wings are getting the goaltending they need to win games from Howard. Why fix what ain't broke?

Once Howard slumps, Ozzie will be given a chance to win #1 spot back.

What's wrong with rewarding a player for playing good?

Exactly!

[gcom007 1,465]

People seem to be missing the point.

The Wings are getting the goaltending they need to win games from Howard. Why fix what ain't broke?

Once Howard slumps, Ozzie will be given a chance to win #1 spot back.

What's wrong with rewarding a player for playing good?

Wait, what? Is it just me or has Howard produced 1 more point than Osgood in their last 10 starts??? Howard at 11, Osgood at 10. 5-4-1 vs. 4-4-2. So, ummmm, huh???

[Guest zackmorris]

Wait, what? Is it just me or has Howard produced 1 more point than Osgood in their last 10 starts??? Howard at 11, Osgood at 10. 5-4-1 vs. 4-4-2. So, ummmm, huh???

This is such a foolish way of judging it. A goalie doesn't score goals so how the hell are they responsible for wins? They aren't. I get the Ozzie apologists will use anything they can while he's reeling and playing like s***, but c'mon.

You're telling us that if Goalie A starts 10 games, loses them all 1-0 in shootouts, that he's worse than Goalie B, who wins 10 games at a score of 9-8 in all of them?

Howard's playing better, there's no argument to be made by anyone who doesn't have blinders on.

I didn't see Ozzie telling Babcock the same thing about Hasek when Hasek was pulled, and Dom was and always will be the better goalie. He's just being selfish, that's all.

Edited December 31, 2009 by zackmorris

[Outsider 42]

People seem to be missing the point.

The Wings are getting the goaltending they need to win games from Howard. Why fix what ain't broke?

Once Howard slumps, Ozzie will be given a chance to win #1 spot back.

What's wrong with rewarding a player for playing good?

Again, he's lost 3 of his last 5, and 5 of his last 10. Now, whether or not those losses were "his fault" or not, they are losses, just the same. And - just in case you've missed it - some of those losses came against some of the worst Teams in the League.

Cripes....you're touting Howard's last few games against Columbus as some kind of litmus test against how he'll do versus a Team which has actually scored some goals this month, and which has actually won more than TWO Games in their past TWENTY PLUS.

What happens when the Wings are facing real, tough, competition - Teams like Washington, and San Jose, and Pittsburgh. You know....the "more equal" Teams in this League filled with such obvious "parity", where the "only thing" separating the Tampa Bay Lightning from the Pittsburgh Penguins is "only 13 points". Because we all know that on any given night, Tampa Bay has the chance to be just as good as the Pens. Just as the New York Islanders, on any given night, can be "equal" to the Washington Capitals. And the Anaheim Ducks, on any given night, can be "better" than the San Jose Sharks.

All Teams are equal, apparently. And facing a steady diet of bottom feeders who haven't been able to find the back of the net for a month, against any Team they've faced, is no real indication that a goaltender is being shown to be better than he actually is.

Of course not. Just as the Wings recent scoring ineptitude has not made some very mediocre goaltenders look like Vezina candidates when facing off against Detroit.

Let's face it: Jeff Drouin Deslariers is a fantastic goaltender. That's why the Wings were only able to net one against him.

Both Steve Mason and Mathieu Garon have been nails this Season. Hence the Wings inability to score on either of them with any kind of success.

Gustavsson? Fantastic goaltender! Alex Auld? Vezina candidate in waiting....just never given a "real" chance. Rinne? Brilliant. Ondrej Pavelec...? (ummm....who?....what?). Well, obviously a fantastic goaltender! He shut out the Wings, after all.

So we can all relax, I guess. It's not that the Wings have almost NO goal-scoring ablility lately. It's not that they're making every cruddy goaltender they face look like Roy in his prime.....It's just that they've run into....well.....The next Roy in his prime.

Or....not. Perhaps the Wings inability to score goals is making these goaltenders look better than they actually are. Rather like some of the Offensively inept Teams that Howard has been facing are making him look better than he actually is.

Could it be? Nah! Impossible! Not when all Teams are "equal" due to the "parity" in the League. Well then....the Wings are not having trouble scoring. They're just being stopped by "really good" goaltending.

Is Howard going to continue to provide the goaltending the Wings need to Win games against the truly "good" Teams?

Babcock is hedging his bets toward....NOT! That's why the poking, prodding, and jabbing at Osgood has begun in earnest. He knows who gives him the best opportunity to Win when the entire schedule for the month is not populated by bottom dwellers.

And that's precisely why he's "prepping" Oz.

[Statts 4]

Wait, what? Is it just me or has Howard produced 1 more point than Osgood in their last 10 starts??? Howard at 11, Osgood at 10. 5-4-1 vs. 4-4-2. So, ummmm, huh???

Scoring is the problem.

Do people watch the games or do people just spew stats and numbers like they are the end all to any argument?

[Guest zackmorris]

Oh lordy lordy when are we going to hear the end of this "Ozzie plays the good teams, Howard plays the bad ones" bulls***? Because that's exactly what it is. Defend your favorite guy til you're blue in the face, we're all watching the same games and Howard's playing better. Oh and I'm sorry if tihs requires a touch of critical thinking, but when you're playing the majority of the games, you're going to start running into bad teams eventually. It's just math.

Who the hell has Ozzie faced? NJ once? Calgary? A meeting with SJ back in early November? Don't tell me Buffalo, Vancouver or Phoenix are easy wins. Ozzie's also faced such powerhouse teams as Toronto, Nashville and STL and lost all of those matchups....but there's some sort of excuse for that right? When Howard loses, holy s***, put in Ozzie...when Ozzie loses to them, excuses come flying out of bodily orifices faster than Howard can go back into the net.

According to some folks on Wings msg boards, Ozzie is f***in infallible and can do no wrong, ever.

Edited December 31, 2009 by zackmorris

[Outsider 42]

This is such a foolish way of judging it. A goalie doesn't score goals so how the hell are they responsible for wins? They aren't. I get the Ozzie apologists will use anything they can while he's reeling and playing like s***, but c'mon.

You're telling us that if Goalie A starts 10 games, loses them all 1-0 in shootouts, that he's worse than Goalie B, who wins 10 games at a score of 9-8 in all of them?

Howard's playing better, there's no argument to be made by anyone who doesn't have blinders on.

I didn't see Ozzie telling Babcock the same thing about Hasek when Hasek was pulled, and Dom was and always will be the better goalie. He's just being selfish, that's all.

That depends, zack.

If Goalie A Starts 10 games against 10 of the worst, lowest scoring Teams in the League, and loses them all in the shoot-out, and Goalie B Starts all of his games against Top 10 Teams, and some of the highest scoring Teams in the League, and allows, (on average), FEWER goals against than each of these Teams average, and Wins....

Then yes. Goalie B is playing better than Goalie A.

If Goalie A faces 10 penalty shots by Ryan Callahan of the New York Rangers, and allows only 5 goals.....

And Goalie B faces 10 penalty shots by Alex Ovechkin of the Washington Capitals, and allows 7 goals.....

Is that a fair indication of who "played the shooter" better? You have to consider the SHOOTER, as well as the goaltender.

Or are you stating that a clear cut, one-on-one breakaway by Ryan Callahan is equally as deadly as one by Alex Ovechkin? And that there's no difference in the level of skill, experience, or anticipation required to stop one over the other.

Howard is facing crap competition. And he's still lost 50% of his past 10 Starts.

Osgood is facing some of the best Teams in the League, and over his past 10 Starts, while his stats haven't been "as good" has Howard's have been, he's been fairly close, in ALL categories.

INCLUDING the all-important "we need every point we can get" category. And all while Howard is facing competition where the Wings have at least a 50/50 shot of Winning,(and in many cases - better than even odds), whereas the competition that Osgood is facing, almost without expcetion, (with the Team as currently configured), gives him about a 20% chance of Victory, even if he DOES play well.

[FedorovMan91 1]

As some others say, Osgood is just an unbeatale superman in this board. If he makes a mistake, everyone just defends him. When Howard makes a mistake, everyone just bashes him.

Save percetnage and GAA is more important than the number of wins. Comparing the points Howard and Osgood made last few games do not directly judge their abilities thise season.

[Guest zackmorris]

That depends, zack.

If Goalie A Starts 10 games against 10 of the worst, lowest scoring Teams in the League, and loses them all in the shoot-out, and Goalie B Starts all of his games against Top 10 Teams, and some of the highest scoring Teams in the League, and allows, (on average), FEWER goals against than each of these Teams average, and Wins....

Then yes. Goalie B is playing better than Goalie A.

If Goalie A faces 10 penalty shots by Ryan Callahan of the New York Rangers, and allows only 5 goals.....

And Goalie B faces 10 penalty shots by Alex Ovechkin of the Washington Capitals, and allows 7 goals.....

Is that a fair indication of who "played the shooter" better? You have to consider the SHOOTER, as well as the goaltender.

Or are you stating that a clear cut, one-on-one breakaway by Ryan Callahan is equally as deadly as one by Alex Ovechkin? And that there's no difference in the level of skill, experience, or anticipation required to stop one over the other.

Howard is facing crap competition. And he's still lost 50% of his past 10 Starts.

Osgood is facing some of the best Teams in the League, and over his past 10 Starts, while his stats haven't been "as good" has Howard's have been, he's been fairly close, in ALL categories.

INCLUDING the all-important "we need every point we can get" category. And all while Howard is facing competition where the Wings have at least a 50/50 shot of Winning,(and in many cases - better than even odds), whereas the competition that Osgood is facing, almost without expcetion, (with the Team as currently configured), gives him about a 20% chance of Victory, even if he DOES play well.

Is that right?

Well, let's examine it closely then.

I had some time to kill and did the math. I took the average goals for per game of all the teams they've each faced and averaged it out.

Here is the average goals per game of the combined teams Osgood has faced - 2.9

Here is the average goals per game of the combined teams Howard has faced - 2.81

For a staggering .09 goals per game difference?

Let's also remember when you're playing more, and not in random games but consecutively(indicating a hot goalie rather than a protected goalie), you're going to run into weaker teams just more often, especially w/ a small sample size.

Hell if we're to take out the Washington game (clearly the highest GPG in the league and can wreak havor on a small mathematical equation such as this) Ozzie drops to 2.87 and if we take out Howard's game against TB (one of the worst offensive teams in hockey) his jumps to 2.83. Damn near identical.

The real fact is, numbers mean s*** in this situation. There are so many variables to toss in that anyone with bias is going to skewer the argument far too quickly for a mathematical breakdown to have any relevant indication of who is better. s***, if Ozzie had more wins, we'd all be hearing about how he's better because of it. Truth it, Ozzie fanboys will spin anything anyway they can so back up their guy. That's it. We all know it, may as well just say it. We're not flaming or attacking if it's just the God's honest truth.

Howard is playing because he's playing better. Babcock has made it perfectly clear he rewards good play with more of it. We've seen it since he got here and have seen it with our forwards all season long. Ozzie made a mistake in the comments he made. He's not infallible.

Edit: And just incase anyone is curious, Osgood's faced 25 shots per game, Howard has faced 30. More detailed shot stats can be tracked and found online but for now them's the basics folks.

Edited January 1, 2010 by zackmorris