The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Statts 4]

Again, he's lost 3 of his last 5, and 5 of his last 10. Now, whether or not those losses were "his fault" or not, they are losses, just the same. And - just in case you've missed it - some of those losses came against some of the worst Teams in the League.

Cripes....you're touting Howard's last few games against Columbus as some kind of litmus test against how he'll do versus a Team which has actually scored some goals this month, and which has actually won more than TWO Games in their past TWENTY PLUS.

What happens when the Wings are facing real, tough, competition - Teams like Washington, and San Jose, and Pittsburgh. You know....the "more equal" Teams in this League filled with such obvious "parity", where the "only thing" separating the Tampa Bay Lightning from the Pittsburgh Penguins is "only 13 points". Because we all know that on any given night, Tampa Bay has the chance to be just as good as the Pens. Just as the New York Islanders, on any given night, can be "equal" to the Washington Capitals. And the Anaheim Ducks, on any given night, can be "better" than the San Jose Sharks.

All Teams are equal, apparently. And facing a steady diet of bottom feeders who haven't been able to find the back of the net for a month, against any Team they've faced, is no real indication that a goaltender is being shown to be better than he actually is.

Of course not. Just as the Wings recent scoring ineptitude has not made some very mediocre goaltenders look like Vezina candidates when facing off against Detroit.

Let's face it: Jeff Drouin Deslariers is a fantastic goaltender. That's why the Wings were only able to net one against him.

Both Steve Mason and Mathieu Garon have been nails this Season. Hence the Wings inability to score on either of them with any kind of success.

Gustavsson? Fantastic goaltender! Alex Auld? Vezina candidate in waiting....just never given a "real" chance. Rinne? Brilliant. Ondrej Pavelec...? (ummm....who?....what?). Well, obviously a fantastic goaltender! He shut out the Wings, after all.

So we can all relax, I guess. It's not that the Wings have almost NO goal-scoring ablility lately. It's not that they're making every cruddy goaltender they face look like Roy in his prime.....It's just that they've run into....well.....The next Roy in his prime.

Or....not. Perhaps the Wings inability to score goals is making these goaltenders look better than they actually are. Rather like some of the Offensively inept Teams that Howard has been facing are making him look better than he actually is.

Could it be? Nah! Impossible! Not when all Teams are "equal" due to the "parity" in the League. Well then....the Wings are not having trouble scoring. They're just being stopped by "really good" goaltending.

Is Howard going to continue to provide the goaltending the Wings need to Win games against the truly "good" Teams?

Babcock is hedging his bets toward....NOT! That's why the poking, prodding, and jabbing at Osgood has begun in earnest. He knows who gives him the best opportunity to Win when the entire schedule for the month is not populated by bottom dwellers.

And that's precisely why he's "prepping" Oz.

You're thinking too much.

You do realize Howard is a rookie right?

Howard has been playing great. It's exactly what the Wings need right now with their scoring problems. LETS RIDE THE ******* WAVE FOR AS LONG AS IT GOES!!

People were throwing Howard under the bus before he even started a game this season. Now apparently he is playing too good for some people. Unbelievable!

I'll ask again. Do people actually watch the games or just check the box score afterwards.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You're thinking too much.

You do realize Howard is a rookie right?

Howard has been playing great. It's exactly what the Wings need right now with their scoring problems. LETS RIDE THE ******* WAVE FOR AS LONG AS IT GOES!!

People were throwing Howard under the bus before he even started a game this season. Now apparently he is playing too good for some people. Unbelievable!

I'll ask again. Do people actually watch the games or just check the box score afterwards.

Sadly I think for a lot of people it's the latter.

That or they get their info from hockey videogames.

[Broken 16 381]

If Osgood wants to be a good team mate, maybe he should shut the f*** up and mentor Howard who is obviously playing better.

[Guest zackmorris]

^Truth.

Sports are naturally confusing to most people, especially hockey where it's all(for some people) happening too fast to learn to even know what's going on for some. Numbers are idle, so to speak. They're easy to read and understand somewhat and that's naturally comforting. To some it makes sense of a confusing sport. We rely on them for arguments as well.

Numbers mean s*** if you have eyes and brains.

Edited January 1, 2010 by zackmorris

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

If Osgood wants to be a good team mate, maybe he should shut the f*** up and mentor Howard who is obviously playing better.

Did you even read the article?

"Howie has been playing great, so sometimes you have to go with the program," Osgood said. "It gets frustrating at times, but you have to do it."

[Outsider 42]

Oh lordy lordy when are we going to hear the end of this "Ozzie plays the good teams, Howard plays the bad ones" bulls***?

Perhaps when Howard starts to consistently play against some Teams that are not below the Wings in the Standings.

Because that's exactly what it is. Defend your favorite guy til you're blue in the face, we're all watching the same games and Howard's playing better. Oh and I'm sorry if tihs requires a touch of critical thinking, but when you're playing the majority of the games, you're going to start running into bad teams eventually. It's just math.

Your "critical thinking" is faulty. Howard has not "happened upon" Starts against the weak Teams. He's being handed them. Almost ALL of the Games in December were against "weak" Teams.

The only one which weren't?

New Jersey

Nashville

Chicago (twice)

Arguably Phoenix

Osgood got the Start against the Devils.

Osgood got the Start against the Preds.

Osgood got the tougher start, on the second night of back-to-backs, on the road, against Chicago.

Howard played well against Phoenix.

But that's only "coincidence", and the fact that Howard "ran into" all of the weak Teams on the schedule, while Osgood was, purely "by coincidence", pulled off the bench to face the "good" Teams, in the "tougher" situations. Okay. Let's look at October and November, then.

October

St. Louis - Osgood

St. Louis - Howard

Chicago - Osgood

Washington - Osgood

Buffalo - Osgood

LA - Osgood

Colorado - Osgood

Phoenix - Osgood

Colorado - Howard

Vancouver - Osgood

Edmonton - Howard

Calgary - Osgood

Hmmm.....Twelve Games, total. Nine Games against "decent" to "good" Teams. Osgood gets eight of the nine, and Howard one? And three games against "bad" Teams. Osgood gets one, (the Season Opener), and Howard gets the other two.

Coincidence. Pure coincidence.

Okay....November, then....

November

Boston - Osgood

San Jose - Osgood

Toronto - Osgood (after which it was reported that Osgood had "the flu", and Larsson was called up immediately after the Toronto Game)

Columbus - Howard (Osgood sick)

Vancouver - Howard (Osgood sick

Anaheim - Howard (Osgood sick)

Dallas - Howard (Osgood sick)

Florida- Osgood (first Game back from flu)

Montreal - Howard

Nashville - Osgood

Atlanta - Howard

Calgary - Osgood

St. Louis - Howard

Dallas - Howard

Gee....I guess that's "coincidence" too, that Howard faced all of the CBS's, and DAL's, and MON's, and EDM's, and STL's on the schedule because he was "hot", while Babcock pulled a "sick" Osgood, (who reportedly lost over 10 lbs during his bout with the flu), off the bench to face Nashville and Calgary, after getting his feet wet against Florida.

Yeppers. Purely coincidence. Again.

Who the hell has Ozzie faced? NJ once? Calgary? A meeting with SJ back in early November? Don't tell me Buffalo, Vancouver or Phoenix are easy wins. Ozzie's also faced such powerhouse teams as Toronto, Nashville and STL and lost all of those matchups....but there's some sort of excuse for that right? When Howard loses, holy s***, put in Ozzie...when Ozzie loses to them, excuses come flying out of bodily orifices faster than Howard can go back into the net.

In answer to your question about "Who the hell has Ozzie faced?":

Boston. Buffalo. Calgary (x2). Nashville (x2). San Jose. Los Angeles. New Jersey. Washington. Chicago (x2). He shut-out Boston. Lost to Buffalo. Won against the Sharks. Won 1 and lost 1 against Calgary. Lost in OT, (so earned a point), against the Devs. Went 1 and 1 against Nashville. Won against Los Angeles. Won against Washington. And earned the split against Chicago. So, out of a total of twelve games against "good" Teams, Osgood has earned 15 of a possible 24 points.

What you should be asking is "Who the hell has Howard faced?"

Well, let's see:

St. Louis (x3). Edmonton (x2). Columbus (x3). Atlanta. Vancouver. Anaheim (x2). Has he faced any "good" Teams? Well - Colorado (L). Phoenix (W). Dallas (1W - 2L). Chicago (L). So in SIX Games against "decent" to "good" Teams.....

Howard has earned a total of 2 points of a possible twelve? Really?

And since you're so quick to point out how many "bad" Teams Osgood has lost to: Howard has lost to St. Louis (twice), Columbus, Edmonton, (twice)

To be honest, the Wings haven't faced many "good" Teams at all thus far this Season.

But when they have, the game has almost always gone to Osgood. And when they DO face off against the "good" Teams, it's been ONE goalie who's been racking up the points against them.The only exception being the second Game against Chicago. (Which was, for the record, a loss - by the same excact score), by both Wings goalies.

If the Osgood fans have "blinders" on.....YOURS are no less evident.

[Broken 16 381]

Did you even read the article?

"Howie has been playing great, so sometimes you have to go with the program," Osgood said. "It gets frustrating at times, but you have to do it."

No. I didn't. But if Ozzy is in any way whining because he isn't getting any playing time, then he's kind of an *******, imo. It's not like he's this ultra-competitive goalie that has to win every single game. He was sleepwalking through nearly the entire regular season last year, and hasn't looked any better this regular season. Howard is hungry and is playing hard and Osgood should be feeding that instead whining to the press about it.

EDIT

Just read it. He's acting like a whiny douchebag. Especially this part:

"I know how to do that," he said. "I don't think I have to prove that. I know how to play, I just have to play -- that's all there is to it. It's not a matter of earning an opportunity. You have to get into some games and get into a groove and then I can play like I can. It's not that I don't know how to do it.

The way I read this, Ozzy is basically saying that he shouldn't have to earn a spot (wtf?).

So we're having a hard time cracking the top 8 in the standings, and he's butt hurt because Babcock won't bench a hot goalie so he can get his game back. Somebody get him a tissue. I love how the article portrays Osgood as this fierce competitor as he's whining like a baby. Lol.

[beepbeep 3]

Ozgood started the season just like last season, s***TY. I'm sure Babcock has those games in the back of his mind when he is contemplating who to play. The Wings are desperate for wins and Ozzie's so laid-back that maybe Babcock doesn't feel that he has the passion needed to win tight games.....

[Outsider 42]

You're thinking too much.

You do realize Howard is a rookie right?

Howard has been playing great. It's exactly what the Wings need right now with their scoring problems. LETS RIDE THE ******* WAVE FOR AS LONG AS IT GOES!!

People were throwing Howard under the bus before he even started a game this season. Now apparently he is playing too good for some people. Unbelievable!

I'll ask again. Do people actually watch the games or just check the box score afterwards.

Again...you keep telling yourself that. I'll keep remembering that the exact same things were said about Legace in 2005-2006, (wherefrom I think Babcock learned his lesson), and about Conklin last year.

And you also keep telling yourself that Howard's record and stats have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's facing bottom feeder Teams, and when he does face "decent' to "good" Teams, he's earned a total of TWO of a possible TWELVE points.

And I'll bear in mind that Jeff Drouin Deslauriers is NOT a Vezina candidate just because he allowed one goal against the Wings. Nor Alex Auld. Nor Ondrej Pavelec. Steve Mason. Nor Pekke Rinne.

It's not that they're "great", or even that they're PLAYING "great" when they face the Wings. It's that the Wings, (right now), cannot score to save their lives. JUST LIKE THE TEAMS THAT HOWARD IS FACING.

Why is it that Wings fans roundly lament the fact that "We're making this scrub look like Patrick Roy!" because the Wings cannot score goals, but fail to recognize that a very large part of Howard's current success stems from the fact that the Teams HE is facing suffer from the SAME PROBLEM, and that their fans are lamenting the fact that their Team is making a scrub rookie look like a Vezina Candidate?

[Broken 16 381]

Stats

Howard is a rookie. Howard has confidence. Babcock and Co. don't want to damage that confidence. Osgood of all people should understand this. Bottom line... Osgood should do what his bosses tell him and stop whining to the press. Not only does he whine about his plight... he undermines Babcock while he's at it.

[Guest zackmorris]

If the Osgood fans have "blinders" on.....YOURS are no less evident.

What the f*** are you talking about? Stop being a child, I posted numbers to show you that your stance was bulls***, which it is. Shut the f*** up and accept it.

Your definitions of consistent obviously vary based upon which goalie you're a fan of. My numbers still stand in the stupid argument about "good teams vs bad teams". If Osgood was playing so well, why the f*** isn't he starting lately?

[Statts 4]

Again...you keep telling yourself that. I'll keep remembering that the exact same things were said about Legace in 2005-2006, (wherefrom I think Babcock learned his lesson), and about Conklin last year.

And you also keep telling yourself that Howard's record and stats have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he's facing bottom feeder Teams, and when he does face "decent' to "good" Teams, he's earned a total of TWO of a possible TWELVE points.

And I'll bear in mind that Jeff Drouin Deslauriers is NOT a Vezina candidate just because he allowed one goal against the Wings. Nor Alex Auld. Nor Ondrej Pavelec. Steve Mason. Nor Pekke Rinne.

It's not that they're "great", or even that they're PLAYING "great" when they face the Wings. It's that the Wings, (right now), cannot score to save their lives. JUST LIKE THE TEAMS THAT HOWARD IS FACING.

Why is it that Wings fans roundly lament the fact that "We're making this scrub look like Patrick Roy!" because the Wings cannot score goals, but fail to recognize that a very large part of Howard's current success stems from the fact that the Teams HE is facing suffer from the SAME PROBLEM, and that their fans are lamenting the fact that their Team is making a scrub rookie look like a Vezina Candidate?

Howard is keeping the puck out of the net. He cant control his opponents skill level.

This year was Howards first legitimate shot at the big leagues. He has taken his opportunity and has shined. Why cant you just be happy for the kid?

Ill say it again Howard's job is to stop the puck, He is doing that verywell. End of story.

[Outsider 42]

Ozgood started the season just like last season, s***TY. I'm sure Babcock has those games in the back of his mind when he is contemplating who to play. The Wings are desperate for wins and Ozzie's so laid-back that maybe Babcock doesn't feel that he has the passion needed to win tight games.....

Wrong. What games/team were you watching?

Osgood started badly in Sweden. As did Howard. As did the entire Team. He posted solid, strong Wins against Chicago, Washington, and Los Angeles in October. He was bad against Buffalo, (but also received absolutely no help whatsoever from the Team in front of him), played a decent game against Colorado only to lose in the Shoot-Out, played well enough against Phoenix in an OTL, and was pulled (probably prematurely), after 7 minutes and two goal against in Vancouver.

He shut-out Boston, and beat San Jose 2-1 in the Shoot-Out to open November, then got hammered in Toronto. It turns out, he was probably suffering from the flu, as the Wings called Grand Rapids that night after the Game to have Larsson called up.

As for what Babcock has "in the back of his mind", Babs himself stated that Osgood was better to open this Season than he was for the first couple of months of last Season.

The Wings, as a Team, were BAD to open the Season. While Osgood was giving up goals in bunches to Toronto and Buffalo, Howard was answering in kind to Edmonton and Anaheim and Dallas.

[Guest zackmorris]

We can all point to Washington, SJ and Chicago but other than New Jersey we have to go all the way back to early November for crying out loud to find a time when Ozzie was getting starts against good teams.

If Howard was being so sheltered, why has he faced Chicago, Colorado and Phoenix recently? Why is he in net tonight? C'mon, we're in 10th place, do you think we're benching our better goalie to protect the rookie? Or are we playing the hot guy trying to get wins? Think about that. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

Also keep in mind he's a goddamn rookie and doesn't control who he plays. He's just playing better. Ozzie had given up too many whiffers and only a blind devotee would try to deny that. They're not protecting Howard and giving Ozzie the difficult teams, I don't think even you believe that s*** Outsider.

Edited January 1, 2010 by zackmorris

[Outsider 42]

We can all point to Washington, SJ and Chicago but other than New Jersey we have to go all the way back to early November for crying out loud to find a time when Ozzie was getting starts against good teams.

Firstly: You have to go all the way back to to early November to find a time when Osgood was getting Starts....PERIOD.

Secondly: You have to go all the way back to early November to find a time when there were any "good" Teams consistently on the schedule.....at ALL. When they have come up, Osgood has been the one to face them. Look at the schedule.

If Howard was being so sheltered, why has he faced Chicago, Colorado and Phoenix recently? Why is he in net tonight? C'mon, we're in 10th place, do you think we're benching our better goalie to protect the rookie? Or are we playing the hot guy trying to get wins? Think about that. Only a fool would argue otherwise.

He faced Chicago because Osgood did NOT meet Babcock's expectations in his Game against them. What did Babcock say in the article on the first page? "If Ozzie had had a good night the other night, (against Chicago), he'd be starting....." Babcock expected "outstanding" goaltending, (his exact words...not mine). He didn't get it. Howard got the Start against Chicago on the SECOND try...when they were coming in tired, on the road, and on the second night of b-2-b games. Howard failed similarly.

And I've already stated that Howard is getting the Starts that Osgood "wants" because he's being used.....much like Conklin was, last Season.....as a "stick" for Osgood. READ what Babcock is saying. Read between the lines. They match, almost verbatim, the comments Babcock was making last Season when he was "poking" Osgood in an attempt to ramp him up for the Play Offs.

Also keep in mind he's a goddamn rookie and doesn't control who he plays. He's just playing better. Ozzie had given up too many whiffers and only a blind devotee would try to deny that. They're not protecting Howard and giving Ozzie the difficult teams, I don't think even you believe that s*** Outsider.

Of course he doesn't control who he plays. Babcock does. And Babcock has consistently started him against the weak Teams in the League. And yes. I do believe it. And I'm not the only one who's noticed it.

[Outsider 42]

As some others say, Osgood is just an unbeatale superman in this board. If he makes a mistake, everyone just defends him. When Howard makes a mistake, everyone just bashes him.

Save percetnage and GAA is more important than the number of wins. Comparing the points Howard and Osgood made last few games do not directly judge their abilities thise season.

That is perhaps the most inane thing I've read in a very, very long time.

[Dominator2005 558]

I don't know for you guys but I want Detroit to win... I don't give damn f..... s... who is goalie...

If Bab's think that Howard is better option RIGHT NOW there is no need to argue...

[Outsider 42]

What the f*** are you talking about? Stop being a child, I posted numbers to show you that your stance was bulls***, which it is. Shut the f*** up and accept it.

Your definitions of consistent obviously vary based upon which goalie you're a fan of. My numbers still stand in the stupid argument about "good teams vs bad teams". If Osgood was playing so well, why the f*** isn't he starting lately?

Your stats can be skewed to support your POV, as well.

As previously stated....How many goals are Howard's opponents scoring.....NOW...CURRENTLY.

Much like the Wings, who were scoring PLENTY in the beginning of the year.....Howard's opponents have tailed off drastically in the goal scoring department. Columbus is scoring fewer goals in the past MONTH than Detroit.

And that's saying something.

The fact is that you cannot concede the basic, obvious fact....that's right.....fact.....that Howard has faced weaker competion, regardless of the reason.

You keep touting the fact that Howard "cannot control" who he faces. That doesn't change the fact....there's that word again.....that he IS facing weaker competition. Consistently.

And when he's faced "tougher" competition? He's not fared nearly as well.

That's as telling as his record and stats against the cellar dwellers of the League.

To be fair, he's playing against a relatively decent Team tonight. Has he really been challenged? Once? Honestly? Or has his Team pretty much taken over this Game?

[Guest zackmorris]

Firstly: You have to go all the way back to to early November to find a time when Osgood was getting Starts....PERIOD.

What do you think the reason for that is? That's alot of coddling. Surely we've faced good teams since then right?

Do you see the point now?

Secondly: You have to go all the way back to early November to find a time when there were any "good" Teams consistently on the schedule.....at ALL. When they have come up, Osgood has been the one to face them. Look at the schedule.

Oh bulls***. Howard's faced teams ranked 2nd, 3rd and 4th in that time span so save it.

Yeah he sure was being protected there

He faced Chicago because Osgood did NOT meet Babcock's expectations in his Game against them. What did Babcock say in the article on the first page? "If Ozzie had had a good night the other night, (against Chicago), he'd be starting....."

Does that not indicate to you he rides the hot goalie? So which is it? Is Ozzie the "good team goalie" or is he yanked after bad play all the same?

You're arguing in circles. It looks like you'll say anything other than "Howard's just playing better".

And I've already stated that Howard is getting the Starts that Osgood "wants" because he's being used.....much like Conklin was, last Season.....as a "stick" for Osgood. READ what Babcock is saying. Read between the lines. They match, almost verbatim, the comments Babcock was making last Season when he was "poking" Osgood in an attempt to ramp him up for the Play Offs.

I'd wager I'm better at interpreting comments than you and I don't see much similar, and not enough to just blindly pin it as a similar scenario. Conklin was a proven goalie prior to coming here who could've been a starter elsewhere. Howard was a rookie who looked shakier than any other rookie I've seen in years. And you're telling me it has nothing to do with grooming Howard? C'mon man.

Of course he doesn't control who he plays. Babcock does. And Babcock has consistently started him against the weak Teams in the League. And yes. I do believe it. And I'm not the only one who's noticed it.

2

3

4

All ranks of teams he chose to start Howard against. Including tonight.

Again, why hasn't Ozzie started any of them? This is such bulls*** and you're blind if you believe it.

[Guest zackmorris]

The fact is that you cannot concede the basic, obvious fact....that's right.....fact.....that Howard has faced weaker competion, regardless of the reason.

He's faced teams ranked 2, 3 and 4 recently. f***in face up to it, stop being stupid.

You keep touting the fact that Howard "cannot control" who he faces. That doesn't change the fact....there's that word again.....that he IS facing weaker competition. Consistently.

Know what else is a fact? the man who does in fact control who his goalies play, isn't choosing Osgood to play to against teams ranked highly anymore. Fact. He did, in early November. Fact. Not anymore. Fact.

Now can we stop that s***?

To be fair, he's playing against a relatively decent Team tonight. Has he really been challenged? Once? Honestly? Or has his Team pretty much taken over this Game?

There's no talking to some people. You're a lost cause. Ozzie is infallible and Howard is a bum

Fairly decent? They've been ranked either 1st to 3rd in the conference all season long for f***s sake. You just won't give ANY credit will you?

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

That is perhaps the most inane thing I've read in a very, very long time.

Lol... do you read for context? I think he was implying that GAA and SV% are more important in measuring goalie quality than wins... which is pretty dead on... unless you think that Luongo in Florida was the worst goalie in the league based on his winning %.

[Carman 387]

No way Howard can play well verse "real" competition. As evident by his performance tonight. Oh wait...

[Guest zackmorris]

We're 10th place, fighting for a playoff spot and we're playing a team that has never dipped below 1st-3rd in the West all season. Why did Howard get this start?

[Rivalred 630]

No way Howard can play well verse "real" competition. As evident by his performance tonight. Oh wait...

Howard is improving, just like many will with more playing time. I still think he is caught out of position too many times as he plays to far out of the net. Hope this area he improves on; i.e. the 1st goal tonight and then during the end of the 3rd where he lost his stick.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

No way Howard can play well verse "real" competition. As evident by his performance tonight. Oh wait...

I believe the assertion was that he doesn't play AS well. Which he didn't.

We're 10th place, fighting for a playoff spot and we're playing a team that has never dipped below 1st-3rd in the West all season. Why did Howard get this start?

Because Babs is trying to face Howard against better competition since he is clearly the "better" goaltender.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Doc Holliday