The Chris Osgood discussion thread

[Outsider 42]

How bout I explain it like you are a six year old...

You=accusing others of saying Osgood is the best goaltender and can do no wrong

Others=not saying that

Simple enough?

Thank you, Doc. A least someone gets it. Also.....Your point about the Brodeur thread on HFB is spot on.

Howard is posting better stats than Osgood.

He's also posting better stats than Luongo. And Fleury. And Nabokov. And Lundqvist.

Once again....he's also facing weaker competition than any of those goaltenders.....and that INCLUDES his THREE WHOLE GAMES against some of the better Teams in the League.

Some interesting comments from an MLive column/article this evening:

Linky linky....

From Draper:

"You looked at November and December and you were kind of excited about the schedule,'' Kris Draper said......]

Why were they "excited" about the November and December schedule? Because it was filled with mostly WEAK TEAMS, giving them the best opportunity to Win? As Drapes continues....

"Certainly, we would have liked to have padded the win column a little bit more'

What was that, Drapes? "Padded" the Win column? What do you mean by "padded"? Could it be that even the WINGS PLAYERS acknowledge that the schedule for the past two months has been a "cupcake" filled with Games that they should, by all rights, have a GOOD CHANCE to Win? Because they didn't face a whole lot of TOUGH competition? Hmmm. Interesting.

And Rafalski:

"In the last little while we haven't done a good job of getting the points we should'' Stuart said.

I'm sorry, Brad....are you saying that the Wings "should" have been racking up more points while they had the opportunity, when the schedule was light, and the Wings were primarily at Home, against Teams they "should" have beaten?

Wow. That's interesting, too.

As I stated.....

Babcock has had,( thus far), the luxury of riding Howard because the Wings schedule and slate of opponents has allowed him to. Babcock has now begun "poking" Osgood in earnest because he knows that the "creampuff" schedule is DONE, and what's coming up is going to be a lot tougher row to hoe.

Will Osgood respond? I hope so. Babcock does, too. Just as he "hoped" LAST Season, when Conklin was the Saviour......but when Babcock acknowledged that, (as good as Conks had been), what they REALLY, TRULY needed was......

A top-of-his-Game Chris Osgood.

Because as "good" as you think Howard has been, he hasn't been good enough to carry the Team through the upcoming schedule. He's been "good enough" to carry them through a schedule full of games against Columbus, and Anaheim, and Dallas, and Edmonton, while facing three "good" Teams in the past MONTH.

If Osgood doesn't respond, then Howard WILL continue to get the Starts. But, (as with Conklin last Season.....as I ARGUED ALL last Season), if Howard IS the one getting the Starts.....

It will be LESS because of what Howard IS doing, and more because of what Osgood is NOT doing.

Don't kid yourselves. When Babcock said ".....if Ozzie had had a good night the other night, he'd be starting....", he was serious.

Babs wants Ozzie on TOP of his Game. He needs Ozzie on TOP of his Game.

And, (I'm fully confident), he'll GET an Ozzie on TOP of his Game.

But he's gonna have to play him in order to get it.

Next month? The schedule gets tougher. Lots tougher.

[Dominator2005 558]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Rivalred 630]

Maybe Detroit should sign Mr. Hockey - he was able to score some goals back in his days... and also lets go after Bossy and Beliveau... I'm pretty sure we are going to make a playoffs...

At least be a little realistic with players that are still playing.

[Outsider 42]

Maybe Detroit should sign Mr. Hockey - he was able to score some goals back in his days... and also lets go after Bossy and Beliveau... I'm pretty sure we are going to make a playoffs...

You're ridiculous. Both of you.

Howard's five hole was so bad earlier this year that people were calling it the "35 hole". Again....see the Games against St. Louis, Edmonton and Dallas if you doubt it.

When did Howard start to shake of that tendency? When he got REGULAR PLAYING TIME.

Something that Osgood has NOT had the benefit of.

Meanwhile, the goals that are going in against Howard are goals where he's giving up fat rebounds right into the slot, where he's caught swimming on his belly in the crease, and where he's caught out of position when he over-commits and can't get back into position in time. He's ALSO being saved by some quick thinking and terrific plays by his Defense, and his forwards. (Think Helm and Rafalski).

How many wide open nets did Colorado have tonight? Plenty. I counted four, where they either mis-fired, passed, or did absolutely NOTHING with the opportunity at all. Again....as Mick stated....over and over......"Colorado hasn't mounted much of anything tonight."

In the upcoming schedule....do you think well rested, Offensively minded Teams like San Jose, Los Angeles, Washington, Nashville and Pittsburgh aren't going to exploit those weaknesses? You'd better believe they will.

And Babcock knows it.

As he was last year.....even with Conklin playing at "Saviour" level.....Babcock was, literally, desperate to get Osgood back on his Game. Babcock's no dummy. He knows he can only play with fire for so long.

[FedorovMan91 1]

It is stupid to list the teams Osgood played against and Howard played against. Because the teams in the lower rank had more losses than the teams in the higher rank, it does not directly mention the entire team sucks or the star players they have suck. It is still the mid of the season. Both Howard and Osgood have faced strong teams and weak teams. And since our core players are injured, Howard has been the savior of this team. Can anyone disagree with this argument?

I know Osgood has performed great in playoff during his career; be honest, but, I do not like his attitude at all. If Osgood really show his capability of playing better than Howard, Babcock may choose him over Howard. Babcock is not a dumb guy. By his view, Howard is playing better.

Whatever, this is getting stupid. Just have a good new year day

[Redline 0]

I know Osgood has performed great in playoff during his career; be honest, but, I do not like his attitude at all. If Osgood really show his capability of playing better than Howard, Babcock may choose him over Howard. Babcock is not a dumb guy. By his view, Howard is playing better.

Whatever, this is getting stupid. Just have a good new year day

Osgood has been more mediocre than great throughout his career, IMO.

I thought he played some of his best puck of his career last post season.

Oz has had an attitude at times throughout his career, back in the mid 90's with the media and the fans to

some extent. He should still to this day be thanking Mike Vernon for deflecting and taking away most of the

heat from him.

As for Badcock, Rhode Scholar he's not.

[digitaljohn88 4]

IMO: Babcock has NEVER liked Ozzy as his goalie for whatever reason. Holland is the one who fights for him.

Could be completely wrong.

I think Oz will show something good when he gets the chance.

[digitaljohn88 4]

Those losses are deceptive given that the Wings have been shut out 6 of the last 17 games coming into tonight. It's hard to blame Howard's 1-0 and 3-0 losses on him.

Regardless, the stats don't lie:

Howard:

Record: 13-8-2

W: 13 (15th in the league, with every goalie above him having played 2-15 more games)

Sv%: 0.921% (Tied for 10th in the league)

GAA: 2.25 (8th in the league)

Osgood:

Record: 7-6-4

W: 7 (Tied for 35th in the league)

Sv%: 0.901 (38th in the league)

GAA: 2.72 (27th in the league)

Look, no one's arguing that Ozzy isn't captain clutch in the playoffs, but so far his record just can't come close to Howard's. Right now Howie is a top 10 goaltender in this league based on the stats. And he's hardly been doing that with a strong Wings team in front of him.

Osgood and Howard had nearly identical stats in November. Osgood got 7 goals for in 6 November games. Had a few losses with no goal support too... Howard has started 80% since then.

Osgood hasn't had the same chance to improve. Howard took the few starts in a row he got and ran with them. No reason to bash either Howie or Ozzy I think.

Edited January 1, 2010 by digitaljohn88

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

IMO: Babcock has NEVER liked Ozzy as his goalie for whatever reason. Holland is the one who fights for him.

Could be completely wrong.

I think Oz will show something good when he gets the chance.

I just think Babcock is a hardass.

He pushes every single player, veteran or rookie and I think it works the majority of the time.

[Carman 387]

Osgood and Howard had nearly identical stats in November. Osgood got 7 goals for in 6 November games. Had a few losses with no goal support too... Howard has started 80% since then.

Osgood hasn't had the same chance to improve. Howard took the few starts in a row he got and ran with them. No reason to bash either Howie or Ozzy I think.

The difference is one is in his rookie season and is the future. And one is the veteran that has a couple years left.

[Casey 145]

Rhodes Scholar, even.

As for Osgood, he's sitting at #10 all-time.

The others?

Martin Brodeur, 582*.

Patrick Roy, 551, Hall 2006.

Ed Belfour, 484, not yet Hall eligible.

Curtis Joseph, 454*.

Terry Sawchuk, 447, Hall 1971.

Jacques Plante, 437, Hall 1978.

Tony Esposito, 423, Hall 1988.

Glenn Hall, 407, Hall 1975.

Grant Fuhr, 403, Hall 2003.

Chris Osgood, 396*.

*active currently

He's a damn good goalie. Loaded teams? In Detroit, sure. With the Islanders and Blues? Not a chance. He's going to be Hall bound when all's said and done, and deserves it.

[Outsider 42]

Osgood has been more mediocre than great throughout his career, IMO.

That's patently ridiculous. Mediocre goaltenders, regardless of what Team they play for, don't post 400 Career Wins. They don't enjoy nearly 20 year NHL careers. They don't crack the Top 10 at their position in NHL History. And they don't Win Stanley Cups. Twice.

Oz has had an attitude at times throughout his career, back in the mid 90's with the media and the fans to some extent.

And your opening comment is precisely the reason why Osgood has had an "attitude" at times. I'd say a well-deserved attitude. The man is sitting at #10 all-time, the most successful Wings goaltender in the modern era. Among the most successful goaltenders in the entire League in ALL eras, and coming off of two straight Smythe worthy performances in the Post Season....

And all he's heard, his entire TOP TEN Career, a Career which has spanned a decade and a half, from the "experts" who sit at home, having never taken a single shot, nor made a single save, in an NHL Game, and from the geniuses in the Media who are so brilliant that many of them are now IN the Media because they've been FIRED from Managment and Coaching positions, is that he's nothing more than "lucky". That he's s***, and that without the Team in front of him, he'd probably be a telemarketer back home in Alberta.

If you'd accomplished in your chosen field HALF of what Osgood has accomplished in HIS chosen field, a field where only the very best in the world even make the cut to begin with, and had to listen every day to a bunch of know-nothing 'tards talking about how YOU don't know DICK about how to do your job, and how a plethora of has-beens, and never-will bes, would be TEN TIMES better at YOUR job than YOU are.....a bunch of ignoramuses who've done nothing but constantly s*** on everything you've accomplished by calling it "luck".....

I'd wager YOU would have an attitude too. Rather an "I've been doing this awhile, and with a fair amount of success. If you're so damned sure you know what it takes, step on up. If not? Sit down, STFU, and let me do my job." type of attitude. And again....you'd be perfectly justified.

He should still to this day be thanking Mike Vernon for deflecting and taking away most of the heat from him.

Funny you should mention Vernon. Both in 2008 and in 2009, the Press actually WENT TO Mike Vernon, and ASKED him what he thought of Osgood, and what he'd made of himself, and what he'd accomplished in his career.

Vernie told the Press that "maybe now" people would start to give Osgood the "credit he deserves". He further stated that a bunch of fan and media types get all caught up in the numbers, the stats - especially as far as Osgood is concerned - but that GOALTENDERS, (like himself), recognize what really matters. And that Osgood is one thing: A Winner. Pure and simple. He's a Winner.

Go back through a list of Osgood's teammates on every Team he's ever played on. Without exception, the consensus from everyone from his present day Wings teammates, to Adrian Aucoin, to Mike Peca, to Kenny Jonsson, to Keith Tkachuck, to Doug Weight, to Al MacInnis.......

ALL of them have stated that until they actually PLAYED with the guy, they never fully appreciated what he brings to a Team, nor ever realized how LITTLE credit Osgood gets.

So go ahead and sit there and talk about how Osgood has been little more than "mediocre" for most of his career, and then whine about how he has an "attitude" when his crappy Top 10 career is trampled on by a bunch of "fans" who honestly believe that Ty Freakin' Conklin is somehow, in any way, and in some wacked out alternate universe, his equal in skill, heart, and ability......but (like Legace).....just hasn't ever had the chance to put up 400 ******* Wins in the NHL.

I wonder where this totally unjustified "attitude" of Osgood's stems from? Certainly can't be from the lofty perch of his REAL accomplishments, rather than the "could have beens" of goaltenders who are so clearly his betters......

After all.....what would a mediocre Two Time Cup Champ with 400 Career NHL Victories know about tending goal?

Here's an interesting little fact:

Chris Osgood has had ONE JOB, his entire life. He's a goaltender. That's all he's ever been. That's the only job he's ever held. For sixteen successful years, in the best League in the World.

That's not "luck", buddy.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Outsider

[Carman 387]

All the more reason Osgood shouldn't be outplayed by a rookie so far this season.

[Outsider 42]

All the more reason Osgood shouldn't be outplayed by a rookie so far this season.

So far. So far.

And with very little opportunity to improve on it.

But, as Babcock himself states:

Osgood's "got all the tools and he knows the ropes. He'll dig in and find a way. He'll get his opportunity, and he'll run with it."

And when he does, he'll smile graciously and thank the fans for "always being behind me".

[Carman 387]

Yep, I've never said Osgood won't come around, I'm not like the other crazy people who say he just sucks and is never going to get any better. I give Osgood credit when he does well, and I criticize him when he's not doing well. I'm glad he's been a Wing, and respect what he has accomplished. But just because of what he has done doesn't mean I'm going to make excuses for poor play when I notice it. Osgood will start playing well I'm sure, but until he proves it to Babcock I have no problem with Howard winning games right now, and I don't know why there are fans working diligently trying to find ways to make it look like Howard isn't playing as well as the stats say. And actually go to the depths you go to defend Osgood yet attack the rookie net minder was insane to me.

[mackel 766]

It is stupid to list the teams Osgood played against and Howard played against. Because the teams in the lower rank had more losses than the teams in the higher rank, it does not directly mention the entire team sucks or the star players they have suck. It is still the mid of the season. Both Howard and Osgood have faced strong teams and weak teams. And since our core players are injured, Howard has been the savior of this team. Can anyone disagree with this argument?

I know Osgood has performed great in playoff during his career; be honest, but, I do not like his attitude at all. If Osgood really show his capability of playing better than Howard, Babcock may choose him over Howard. Babcock is not a dumb guy. By his view, Howard is playing better.

Whatever, this is getting stupid. Just have a good new year day

Yea he was lights out against the sharks in 93..... f*** Osgood is done, finished, washed up... lat years playoffs were his last bit of good play. his career is OVER.

[mackel 766]

Chris Osgood has had ONE JOB, his entire life. He's a goaltender. That's all he's ever been. That's the only job he's ever held. For sixteen successful years, in the best League in the World.

Yup and hes been just effin fair for all 16 years and had his success on all star calibur teams. Osgood would be a career backup minus the teams hes played on. Also guys hes played with if those quotes come from when they were on the same team together they dont mean a thing... you`d hardly throw one of your fellow players under the bus. Get a clue.

[Guest mindfly]

IMO: Babcock has NEVER liked Ozzy as his goalie for whatever reason. Holland is the one who fights for him.

Could be completely wrong.

I think Oz will show something good when he gets the chance.

Not surprising. Babcock loves players who work their ass off and never have nights off who lives and breathe hockey 24/7... Osgood is quite the opposite of that.

That's why Osgood and also a certain Leino gets scratched alot this season even though they probably would be in the lineup when they are at the top of their game.

Edited January 1, 2010 by mindfly

[Broken 16 381]

Wow... 11 pages just because Howard is playing better than Osgood? Hehe... I love staunch Osgood torch carriers. They are so easy to get riled up. They get so caught up in their undying devotion that 99% of the time, they can't tell when people are ******* with them.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Not surprising. Babcock loves players who work their ass off and never have nights off who lives and breathe hockey 24/7... Osgood is quite the opposite of that.

That's why Osgood and also a certain Leino gets scratched alot this season even though they probably would be in the lineup when they are at the top of their game.

Leino hasn't been on any type of positive game all season.

Last night was his first good game.

[Zetts 236]

Thank you, Doc. A least someone gets it. Also.....Your point about the Brodeur thread on HFB is spot on.

Howard is posting better stats than Osgood.

He's also posting better stats than Luongo. And Fleury. And Nabokov. And Lundqvist.

Once again....he's also facing weaker competition than any of those goaltenders.....and that INCLUDES his THREE WHOLE GAMES against some of the better Teams in the League.

Some interesting comments from an MLive column/article this evening:

Linky linky....

From Draper:

"You looked at November and December and you were kind of excited about the schedule,'' Kris Draper said......]

Why were they "excited" about the November and December schedule? Because it was filled with mostly WEAK TEAMS, giving them the best opportunity to Win? As Drapes continues....

"Certainly, we would have liked to have padded the win column a little bit more'

What was that, Drapes? "Padded" the Win column? What do you mean by "padded"? Could it be that even the WINGS PLAYERS acknowledge that the schedule for the past two months has been a "cupcake" filled with Games that they should, by all rights, have a GOOD CHANCE to Win? Because they didn't face a whole lot of TOUGH competition? Hmmm. Interesting.

And Rafalski:

"In the last little while we haven't done a good job of getting the points we should'' Stuart said.

I'm sorry, Brad....are you saying that the Wings "should" have been racking up more points while they had the opportunity, when the schedule was light, and the Wings were primarily at Home, against Teams they "should" have beaten?

Wow. That's interesting, too.

As I stated.....

Babcock has had,( thus far), the luxury of riding Howard because the Wings schedule and slate of opponents has allowed him to. Babcock has now begun "poking" Osgood in earnest because he knows that the "creampuff" schedule is DONE, and what's coming up is going to be a lot tougher row to hoe.

Will Osgood respond? I hope so. Babcock does, too. Just as he "hoped" LAST Season, when Conklin was the Saviour......but when Babcock acknowledged that, (as good as Conks had been), what they REALLY, TRULY needed was......

A top-of-his-Game Chris Osgood.

Because as "good" as you think Howard has been, he hasn't been good enough to carry the Team through the upcoming schedule. He's been "good enough" to carry them through a schedule full of games against Columbus, and Anaheim, and Dallas, and Edmonton, while facing three "good" Teams in the past MONTH.

If Osgood doesn't respond, then Howard WILL continue to get the Starts. But, (as with Conklin last Season.....as I ARGUED ALL last Season), if Howard IS the one getting the Starts.....

It will be LESS because of what Howard IS doing, and more because of what Osgood is NOT doing.

Don't kid yourselves. When Babcock said ".....if Ozzie had had a good night the other night, he'd be starting....", he was serious.

Babs wants Ozzie on TOP of his Game. He needs Ozzie on TOP of his Game.

And, (I'm fully confident), he'll GET an Ozzie on TOP of his Game.

But he's gonna have to play him in order to get it.

Next month? The schedule gets tougher. Lots tougher.

I think it's disgusting that our starting goalie has to be prodded "in earnest" to play well. We need him. He should be self-motivated. Like I said before, a lapse in play is one thing, but the length this seems to go on for is obscene. This argument about the opponents is irrelevant. He should be able to play against any team. He's supposedly a starting goaltender.

Any issues with a lack of starts throwing him off is a further lack of professionalism. Nearly every goalie rides the pine when they get cold, and they have to earn their spot back. It's harder, but it's part of their job. Osgood just seems to rely on other people faltering to get his job.

And look at that, Howard is playing Phoenix, a top 4 team on Saturday.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...lower-body.html

One more thing. Babcock doesn't have a vendetta against Osgood. If Osgood was playing well enough, he'd be starting more. End of story. Personally, I trust Babcock's analysis of what he wants from his goalies.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Babcock doesn't have a vendetta against Osgood. If Osgood was playing well enough, he'd be starting more. End of story. Personally, I trust Babcock's analysis of what he wants from his goalies.

Agreed. It's up to the goalie/player to play better if they think the coach might not be too pleased with their performance. Complaining to the media and knocking the coach's judgment seems the wrong way to go about fixing the situation. JMO.

There might be more going on here than we know/assume.

[Dominator2005 558]

Agreed. It's up to the goalie/player to play better if they think the coach might not be too pleased with their performance. Complaining to the media and knocking the coach's judgment seems the wrong way to go about fixing the situation. JMO.

There might be more going on here than we know/assume.

pssst!

[Broken 16 381]

Osgood whining to the press and undermining Babcock = whiney douchebag. Period. End of story.

No amount of skewed stats will change that.

[Outsider 42]

I think it's disgusting that our starting goalie has to be prodded "in earnest" to play well. We need him. He should be self-motivated. Like I said before, a lapse in play is one thing, but the length this seems to go on for is obscene. This argument about the opponents is irrelevant. He should be able to play against any team. He's supposedly a starting goaltender.

Any issues with a lack of starts throwing him off is a further lack of professionalism. Nearly every goalie rides the pine when they get cold, and they have to earn their spot back. It's harder, but it's part of their job. Osgood just seems to rely on other people faltering to get his job.

And look at that, Howard is playing Phoenix, a top 4 team on Saturday.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/20...lower-body.html

One more thing. Babcock doesn't have a vendetta against Osgood. If Osgood was playing well enough, he'd be starting more. End of story. Personally, I trust Babcock's analysis of what he wants from his goalies.

I fully expected Howard to Start against Phoenix on Saturday. You should have, too. He played well enough to Win against Colorado, and there's really no need to bench HIM. I never stated that there was. Also, Osgood, (throughout his career), has been absolutely dreadful against Phoenix. His record and personal stats against the 'Yotes are some of the worst he's posted.....going back to their days in the 'Peg.

All I've been saying, from the get-go, is that there's no reason to KEEP Ozzie on the bench. He's not playing terribly. If he was, then there might be some justification. He's not. So there's not.

"And you carp on "the length of time this has gone on has been obscene." As has been previously stated....the "length this has gone on" isn't something that Osgood has had much control over. He HASN'T BEEN PLAYING.

If he's not playing in any Games, then he's not going to get any better. Or are you expecting his stats and performance to improve.....From the bench? Apparently so. Just as many here expected last Season, when Conklin was the Saviour.

That's all Osgood stated in the article. That's all that those of us who don't think Osgood should be taken out behind the wood-shed and beaten have been saying.

If he's NOT PLAYING, he's not going to SHOW any improvement.

The argument that "he needs to earn Starts" and "he needs to improve before he can get Starts" is assinine. He can't "earn" anything unless he plays a game. He hasn't. He's played three Games in the past month. ONE of which was a very good game, against a good Team, on the Road, on the second night of back-to-backs..

What did it "earn" him? Nothing. He was back on the bench after that Game for another WEEK. And then was thrown in cold, with a tired Team in front of him, against one of the Top Teams in the League, on the road, on the second night of back-to-backs. Gee....that scenario sounds familiar.

What are you expecting? How much better are you expecting his stats to get from the bench? How many "good games" are you expecting him to string together out of....

ZERO opportunities? The next game Osgood Starts will be approximate TWO WEEKS from his last Start. And if he shows any rust whatsoever, he'll be thrown back on the bench for another two weeks or so.

This might not be such a touchy situation if the FEW and far-between Starts he was getting were in situations where he actually had a fighting chance in HELL to shake off a bit of well-earned rust and not have to worry about every single mistake being a disaster. You know....perhaps a Game against COLUMBUS....or St. Louis....or Tampa Bay......or Anaheim.

Nope. He gets the Devils. And Nashville, on the second night of b-2-b's. And Chicago, on the second night of b-2-b's. And he's expected to be, (as Babcock stated), "outstanding".

As for your assertion that it's "disgusting" that Osgood has to be "prodded" to play well? Babcock doesn't WANT him "playing well". Please pay attention. Osgood IS "playing well". What Babcock has said, specifically, is that he wants Osgood at "the best he can be." And in case you've just recently started watching the Wings, and Osgood in particular.....

Ozzie is not the most skilled goaltender in the League. Never has been. Never will be. It's not his "skill" or his "talent" that has gotten him to where he is today.

It's his "Heart". It's his competitive fire. Without that, he'd be nothing more than an undersized, moderately skilled, goaltender. He'd be able to "play well", but that's about it. But that's a far, far cry from Osgood "at his best". When Osgood IS "at his best", he's one of the best goaltenders in the NHL.

And the fact of the matter remains that if you want Osgood "at his best", you've got to poke at his ego, and stoke his competitive fire, and bring out the bulldog in him. THAT is when he rises above the very real and unavoidable physical limitations that are a reality with this particular goaltender, and becomes the goaltender that has led his Team to the Stanley Cup Finals two years in a row, with Smythe worthy performances in both.

And so that is precisely what Babcock is doing.