Is it time to rebuild?

[Jedi 1,865]

How about we discuss the topic at hand? We can do that regardless of who's been here how long.

IMO, it's too early to think about rebuilding. If we were where Edmonton is at in the standings, maybe, and even then it would be a stretch. But we're still in the race, and a string of victories could put us right in the middle of the seedings. And this group is certainly capable of dominant play, it just seems to be more a case of if they're willing to do the work that will be required to bring about said dominant play.

Getting the roster healthy can only help. Partially because we won't be under-staffed, bit also because it will remove the "we'll be better when we're not injured" excuse.

With the core of players we have under contract, and the possibility of having meaningful cap space this summer, rebuilding just doesn't seem like an option that would be considered.

[dragonballgtz 273]

Cant really rebuild when most of the core is still signed up long term. Also the only thing we could do to make this team better is to find better role players. Those players are the Helm's and Abby's of 2-3 years from now (more experienced) along with a few up and coming 2nd liners that are in their first few years of contracts.

The only thing that Detroit will have issue with is how they us to let players develop just nice and ripe. We might have to move a few scorers a wee bit faster but thats it.

Edited January 29, 2010 by dragonballgtz

[hillbillywingsfan 794]

i think once everyone gets back and it healthy for while we will be fine. i don't really think we need to change much if anything.

[Theophany 110]

I wasn't speaking specifically of you. I did mention that I tended to see your point, albeit without quoting you, on page 1.

Really? Seems like the entire post was about me.

I love how LGW is just a place for kids who joined in 2009 to post thier stupid "facepalm" crap.

Instead of an actual debate, let's just be assface losers and give this thread 1 star.

Anyone want to discuss anything about what I actually said? I can agree that Lidstrom may not be declining, perhaps his numbers are weaker because he is playing safer to cover for the lack of depth. But really guys, this is one of the best "healthy" teams in the league? When was this team impressive this season?

Love the Wings, love Franzen and hope he can help when he gets back, but willing to face reality.

Yes, this is one of the best healthy teams in the league.

This team was pretty damn impressive against Chicago in the first home game of the season (last game we had Franzen), and against the Caps in the second home game of the season. Hey, wasn't that the last time the whole team was (nearly) healthy?

Oh, yeah.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Lidstrom is not on the decline. Lidstrom has been strong defensively all season and he has always been a second half point producer.

Ozzie has proven his playoff prowess and Howard has had a strong season. What's to say that Howard will not play well in the playoffs if the Wings make it?

Holmstrom had a tough year last year with injuries but he bounced back nicely this year until he suffered a fluke injury. Stuart has been one of our better defenders this year but has played some bad games recently. I'm not ready to shiop him out of town because of a few bad games. Draper is on the roster to win faceoffs and skate fast, which he does. Draper is a role player and he plays that roll well, same goes for Maltby. Maltby has shot blocking ability and is great at being a pest. Maltby has also put some ppoints up which is a nice bonus. May has played well lately, but he wasn't brought on to be some spectacular player. Rafalski's skills are declining but he has strong games and then games where he looks like a rookie.

Abs is not the Draper replacement, Helm is. There are plenty of guys in the system that are going to be quality player. Kindl is a Top 6 defenseman and Tatar is tearing it up in GR. The Red Wings have a long way to go until they need to rebuild.

Lidstrom is a guy that I that I will concede the point on. It's just that we expect so much of him and he wasn't putting up the offensive numbers that he had in the past.

Ozzie is not the goalie he once was. That's something I'll agree to disagree on. Regarding Jimmy, I'd love for him to do well, but it is very rare for a rookie goalie to succeed in the playoffs.

Regarding Draper specifically.....he is a role player making 2nd/3rd line money. In a cap world, that's my only knock on him. Regarding Maltby and May, I agree that they are good at what they do-- but it's not as if it's not replaceable-- any my point is, maybe developing a guy like Abdelkader or signing a younger guy to fill May's role may allow the team to transition gracefully. It feels as if we are holding onto Maltby because of what he accomplished. But that's another agree to disagree things.

Kindl, from what I have seen/read, is streaky....even in GR. While I would love for him to be top-2, top-4, I really think that he may be a #5 or a #6-- not really saying much, considering that these guys aren't what anchors a team. I like Tatar, I saw him in the WJCs and was ecstatic the Wings got him.....but success on the big pond doesn't guarantee transition to the big club.

Rafalski is getting paid FAR too much to fill the role he is filling. He is paid as a #2 and he looks like a #5.

When I say rebuild, I don't mean scrap the structure, just get some replacement pieces.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Really? Seems like the entire post was about me.

Yes, this is one of the best healthy teams in the league.

This team was pretty damn impressive against Chicago in the first home game of the season (last game we had Franzen), and against the Caps in the second home game of the season. Hey, wasn't that the last time the whole team was (nearly) healthy?

Oh, yeah.

So, 2 games a season makes? Franzen is that much of a difference maker (I'd love it to be true, I have his jersey). I disagree. But please don't feel targeted. It was more the frustration of lack of debate. My bad.

[Guest ZetterbergFourty]

franzen will save us all.

I agree.

[Theophany 110]

When I say rebuild, I don't mean scrap the structure, just get some replacement pieces.

See, this is an important distinction to make; most people see "rebuilding" as getting rid of our pieces and bringing in a completely new set of players (and possibly coaches).

Yes, I do think that we're going to see some moves being made in the off-season. I dearly hope that Lidstrom doesn't retire; we need him (albeit at a discounted rate).

Draper has a year left after this, then I see him retiring. Maltby will probably retire or come back at league minimum after this year (which I would not mind).

It seems that we're completely full on grinder/energy guys. Like, overfull. We need another top-6 guy, frankly, to take Cleary or Bertuzzi's spot in the top-6 (with Datsyuk, Homer, Z and Franzen being the other 4). If Fil keeps playing at second line center and Abdelkader comes up full-time next year, then that's one less, but I don't think either Cleary or Bertuzzi really are good enough to stay in the top 6.

Don't get me wrong, both of them are very valuable, but I see them more of barely-second-more-third-line type of guys.

Our defensive and goalie corps seem to be fine, though, with Lilja (hopefully!) coming back. Rafalski is overpaid, but he's been alright on the offensive side of the puck, and Lidstrom is usually there to back him up on the defensive end.

[Guest Crymson]

Well, it's nearly February and the Wings are seemingly locked into a sub-par season. I'm not saying that they won't do damage in the playoffs, but I haven't seen much to convince me that they will. Since the Stockholm games, when they blew leads to St. Louis, this has looked like a different team.

Is it time to consider that our #1 defenseman is on the decline, that there is not a "playoff quality" starting goalie on the roster (easy, Osgood lovers), and that Datsyuk/Zetterberg have been less than effective without the depth of previous seasons.

Is it time to take a look at this roster (Holmstrom, Osgood, Rafalski, Stuart, May, Draper, Maltby) and make some hard decisions? Don't get me wrong-- each of these guys is/has been vitally important to the team's success at some point (save May).

My fear is the fact that the Wings seem dedicated to "stay the course." Yes, Abdelkader will be a fine Draper replacement. But have we really grown a shutdown defender or top-6 forward lately (save Filppula, perhaps, but he's a #3 center, really). We have so much cap tied up in guys like Rafalski, Stuart, and Draper that could be better spent elsewhere (Rafalski especially). I know there are NTCs. Those can be waived, it's really just a tool used by players to give them say.

Is it time to rebuild the Wings?

[king_malice 17]

rebuild is not the word, renovation maybe is better...if rafalski can get back to his old ways he is still good, you take into consideration that lidstrom is probably done after this year(7mill) and a few other guys like maltby.really this team needs to change a few things maltby,lieno, a new goalie and defense man and we should be alright. ya a pure goal scoring winger would be nice to have also. to bad we could'nt dump osgood and kept conklin he played great for the wings(25w 11L 2t), and just had howard and conklin split the games.

but guys like malyby,osgood,may,lebda,meech we could do without

[Lancz 0]

I am

Ha, just read this as Williams scores the PPG!

[Buppy 1,720]

...When I say rebuild, I don't mean scrap the structure, ....

That's basically what 'rebuild' means. So forgive people for getting the wrong impression. You're talking about tweaking the roster, which pretty much every team does pretty much every year.

But to address some points made so far:

Yes, when healthy the Wings are one of the best teams in the league, or at least they could be. Maybe not as stacked as Chicago or San Jose, but certainly talented enough to beat anyone if they play well. We're short on finishers, but we have a lot of talent. Franzen is a huge loss, since he's one of our few potent goal scorers. Like it or not, injuries ARE an excuse. No team can suffer so many key injuries without some decline in performance.

Nick is declining, but he's still one of the best players in the league. Of course, sometime in the next few years we need to find some way to ease the inevitable loss, and we have a few good prospects already, and FA will likely be an option as well.

Stuart has been great this year, and has stepped up in the playoffs both years he's been here. Still relatively young, and his contract is decent. No reason to even think about trading him.

I think we are already seeing the eventual 'replacements' for Draper, Homer, and Maltby in guys like Helm, Abdelkader, Eaves, and Miller. None really stand out as a potential Homer-of-the-future, but all are young and look like very valuable role players. Draper will likely play out his contract at least, but I have my doubts that Maltby will get another offer, or that Homer will even want to come back.

Rafalski really isn't worth his cap hit right now, but we may not have the option to do anything about it. And who knows, he could still step up and start earning his pay.

Any way you slice it, we'll certainly see some changes this summer, like every summer. But nothing major needs to, or should, be done (depending of course on what Nick decides to do).

[Echolalia 2,961]

If by rebuild you mean rebuild the ice arena, then yes.

[gcom007 1,465]

No, though we'll likely see another off-season filled with guys coming and going. But it's not going to be a rebuild situation. Fitting in new pieces to the puzzle here and there, that's about it...

[Pucks 66]

Maybe the term retool would have been the better choice for the discussion. You make some valid points. Ken Holland is going to be facing his toughest challenges going forward, that's for sure. I would love nothing more than to dump Rafalski's contract somewhere. He's not Mr. offense and he isn't very good in his own end IMO. Too small, plays the pass instead of the body in front of the net, etc.

Personally I'd like to keep getting younger wherever we can. The game is so much about speed now. If you don't have enough, your defending all game. We need another scorer IMO, preferably right handed with size. I'd also like to dump the little mini mites from the 6 and 7 spots for some tougher stay at home types.

We don't really have much cap space to work with unless Lidstrom retires though.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Pucks

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

No.

While the Wings consecutive postseason run of 18 in a row will eventually come to an end, and it could possibly be this year, on paper at least their current roster when healthy/close to it is still pretty dangerous.

Part inconsistency, part injuries are the major factors of why they might not make the playoffs, but I doubt there will be a whole lot of dropoff with this team if they miss altogether or go out of the postseason early.

[puckbags 863]

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[Guest mjtm77]

i get that we reload not rebuild but sonner age is going to catch up on us . in these 18 years we have had players like Lidstrom and Yzerman that we drafted and helpt our team. now we got datsyuk and zetterberg. these guys are going to get old and don't you think it would be nice to get another star player. not saying rebuild because that would be a stupid move

Edited January 30, 2010 by mjtm77

[vangvace 12]

fourth liners leave and new fourth liners come in. They don't really have cap space for much more.

[b-random 0]

The veterans are still some of our most "effective" players. Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Draper, Osgood (until he fails in the playoffs, I still give him the benefit of the doubt) all still key role players. When Holland feels that they are no longer needed, he'll just cut ties by not resigning them. Sure, they could trade players like Cleary, Filppula, Stuart, or any of our young guys, but that's not a rebuild. I don't see any of our top players being traded, especially because of their contracts.

The team isn't in the position to rebuild. They are having a down year and maybe they won't ever return to being THE dominate force in the NHL any time soon, but until proven otherwise they still have one of the better teams in the league.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

It's stupid to think that this team will be rebuilt from scratch. We still have Dats/Z/Helm/Franzen/Flip/Kronwall/Ericsson/Howard who are showing that they are the core of this team having said that to completely ignore rebuilding would be foolish. Lidstrom won't be around forever so we do need to consider that because he will leave a huge void.