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stevkrause

The single biggest scapegoat of the Red Wings in the last 20+ years...

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Ridiculous.

We scored 6 goals in 4 games (+ another game worth of OT) against Anaheim that year. You say you're not blaming him then turn around and say he couldn't handle the pressure? Of course Cujo couldn't handle the expectations if those expectations were retardedly unrealistic.

Giguere made 60-some saves in the first game. That's what cost us the series. He got to us in that game, and the offense was never the same. The team was out of sync, either throwing weak perimeter shots or trying to do too much. Cujo may have let in a couple goals he could have stopped, but he also made several saves that could have, and probably should have, been goals.

Hasek was far from great against Vancouver, got pulled in a game against St.Louis, and had a few mediocre games against Colorado and Carolina. The only real difference was Hasek had an offense scoring 3-4+ goals instead of 0-2 like Cujo normally had.

As unfair as it is teams play differently in front of different goalies. Goalies instill confidence in players and maybe Hasek gave the team the ability to go out and produce offensively while when Cujo was in net they had to play a more defensive style. Whether that's true or not I don't know - Im speculating. But it's similar to this past season. When Osgood was in net and letting in goals the D would have to tighten up. WHen Howard was in net and making the saves he should the Wings could go out and do what they had to in the offensive zone.

It's not always about quantity of saves - it's more about quality sometims.

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Yes I remember the goal he let in off Steve Thomas, he went down to soon, I thought at the time, and still do, that Hasek would have stopped it. It was a play/goal that I think cost us the series. If he made that save, things would have been different.

As mentioned before, I'm not blaming CuJo, because the offense wasn't working, but I agree the expectations were to much for him and he couldn't handle it, especially coming from Toronto where the expectations were much lower. Hasek was able to handle it, CuJo wasn't, so I have no sympathy when I hear him say coming to Detroit was the biggest mistake of his career. As good as he was, he just wasn't mentally tough enough for Detroit, and he probably should have stayed in Toronto.

You pretty much just confirmed the whole point of this thread.

You can always highlight one play and say that would've changed everything. That doesn't make it true. What if Robitaille hadn't shot 2 inches lower so he didn't hit the crossbar?

In 4 games against the Ducks, here was Detroit's goal production from their star players.

Fedorov 1, Hull 0, Shanahan 1, Lidstrom 0, Holmstrom 1, Robitaille 1, Yzerman 0.

Jason Wooley had as many goals as Sergei Fedorov. I won't bother to dig up the salaries those guys were making at the time, but you get the point.

Cujo played plenty well enough to win. Detroit just got beat by a team that wanted it more against a coach that knew how to maximize what assets his team had.

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As unfair as it is teams play differently in front of different goalies. Goalies instill confidence in players and maybe Hasek gave the team the ability to go out and produce offensively while when Cujo was in net they had to play a more defensive style. Whether that's true or not I don't know - Im speculating. But it's similar to this past season. When Osgood was in net and letting in goals the D would have to tighten up. WHen Howard was in net and making the saves he should the Wings could go out and do what they had to in the offensive zone.

It's not always about quantity of saves - it's more about quality sometims.

Howard had a great season, but at the same time it's hard to blame the defense playing worse in front of Osgood on Osgood, when Osgood never got to play. That's going back and forth again and again, trying to lay the blame on nobody?

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I can not believe that nobody has brought up Tim Cheveldae, or the mess in the late 80's in Edmonton with Zombo,Oats,Klima, and I think Probie at the strip joint until 2am the night before game 7 of the confrence finals, this to me is bigger then any of the ones posted

Edited by DEVILSWATERBOY

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For an otherwise stellar program as far as handling players and the class of the organization overall, there was not a single situation handled worse than the Curtis Joseph fiasco and it still bothers me to this day how it went down...

It still infuriates me how Curtis Joseph was treated here and how raw of a deal he got... he was flat out STELLAR in the playoffs both years (especially in 03-04) and was made a scapegoat for an offense that couldn't score and a coaching staff that couldn't adjust to life without Scotty and a head coach in Dave Lewis that wasn't ready to be an NHL head coach...

Curtis Joseph's Playoff Stats here in Detroit:

Year Team League GP W L OT Min. GA SA GAA PCT SO

2003-04 Detroit NHL 9 4 4 - 518 12 197 1.39 .939 1

2002-03 Detroit NHL 4 0 4 - 289 10 120 2.08 .917 0

Regular Season:

Year Team League GP W L OT Min. GA SA GAA PCT SO

2003-04 Detroit NHL 31 16 10 - 1708 68 744 2.39 .909 2

2002-03 Detroit NHL 61 34 19 - 3566 148 1676 2.49 .912 5

If you watched ANY of the '04 playoffs, the poor guy stood on his head and lost games 1-0 or 2-1 and his offense gave him NO scoring support, only to be basically ousted in the off-season for an injury plagued Dominik Hasek that was not in physical condition at the time to justify the move(who had already retired and was a year removed from hockey, let alone NHL hockey) and never got the shot at the cup that he so badly deserved...

Great Post- and couldnt agree more! Its one of the only times I have been outraged by the way the Wings handled a situation.

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I can not believe that nobody has brought up Tim Cheveldae, or the mess in the late 90's in Edmenton with Zombo,Oats,Klima, and I think Probie at the strip joint until 2am the night before game 7 of the confrence finals, this to me is bigger then any of the ones posted

Did you even READ the thread?

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Did you even READ the thread?

Joesph was a scapegoat, but I have to beleive that Cheveldae was bigger, how fast did they run him out of the D after that loss to Toronto, when it was clear that back then it was the coaching style of Murray that was the early playoff exits.

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Joesph was a scapegoat, but I have to beleive that Cheveldae was bigger, how fast did they run him out of the D after that loss to Toronto, when it was clear that back then it was the coaching style of Murray that was the early playoff exits.

Ok, as you clearly missed my point given that you still seem to believe Cheveldae has gone unmentioned:

He was first mentioned on August 17th, 10:38. You can even go back and read the post, it's not that far back and not that long.

You're welcome.

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Ok, as you clearly missed my point given that you still seem to believe Cheveldae has gone unmentioned:

He was first mentioned on August 17th, 10:38. You can even go back and read the post, it's not that far back and not that long.

You're welcome.

Sorry didn't mean rain on your parade :) some good points there, I posted this early this morning and skimmed through and just did not catch his name

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How they treated CuJo was disgraceful (particularly in light of the fact that this is usually a class act organization). But he isn't the biggest scapegoat in recent history. If you're talking about FAN reaction to the player (not just front office), Cheveldae has to be one of the immediate favorites, but Keith Primeau probably gets placed ahead of him because of how popular and productive he was for years in the Winged Wheel, and then he has one horrible playoff run in 1996 (17 games, 1 goal), and suddenly he became the face of everything wrong with this team in the playoffs (along with Coffey, who was also scapegoated, but actually shot at his own net). Primeau went on to have a very nice career in Carolina and Philadelphia, and his triple overtime goal against the Pens (2000, I think) made me very happy for him, since the knock on him was that he could never score in the clutch.

Also, while it's recency makes it hard to place into context, the Marian Hossa treatment this past year really disappointed me about a lot of Wings fans. Hossa carried the Wings throughout the 2008-09 season during stretches where the team couldn't buy a goal. He had an okay first series against Columbus, had a goal outright robbed from him against Anaheim, and basically did nothing but skate around the perimeter with the puck for the remainder of the playoffs. After the playoffs, it was revealed that his shoulder was so badly damaged that he needed surgery on it even though that was probably the last thing he wanted to do after signing a 10-year contract with Chicago. Hossa played all 23 games of the playoffs and didn't complain about the injury. He scored 6 goals and had 9 assists.

Meanwhile, Pavel Datsyuk had an injured foot and was limited to only 16 games. He scored ONE goal during our entire run through the '09 Playoffs. I love Pavel Datsyuk, but can somebody please tell me why Pavel was seen as the valiant hero braving injury, while Hossa (who scored 6 times as many goals) was viewed as the no-good bum? HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? Hossa came to the Wings as a one-year mercenary, and that's exactly how he left. Yet, I can't even wear his jersey in public because there are Wings fans dumb enough to think that he single handedly "cursed" us out of the '09 Cup. I don't put this "scapegoating" on the same level as Primeau, Cheveldae, and CuJo b/c it was just one year of service, but it still irks me nonetheless.

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As unfair as it is teams play differently in front of different goalies. Goalies instill confidence in players and maybe Hasek gave the team the ability to go out and produce offensively while when Cujo was in net they had to play a more defensive style. Whether that's true or not I don't know - Im speculating. But it's similar to this past season. When Osgood was in net and letting in goals the D would have to tighten up. WHen Howard was in net and making the saves he should the Wings could go out and do what they had to in the offensive zone.

It's not always about quantity of saves - it's more about quality sometims.

Equally ridiculous.

Like Eva said, you can't really blame the way the team plays on the goalie, especially in Cujo's case when he played very well. We were putting up 30-35+ shots a game, allowing ~20-30. Those aren't numbers suggesting the team was in a defensive shell. Likewise, a goalie that needs to be protected doesn't post a .935 save percentage.

6 goals on 171 shots in 4 games against Anaheim.

3 goals (shutout twice) on 127 shots in 4 losses to Calgary. In the last two games against Calgary, Cujo made 63 of 65 saves.

Blaming Jospeh at all for those losses is retarded.

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BTW, Fedorov doesn't qualify for this one, in my book, because he was far too successful to be labeled a scapegoat. If you're talking Wings whose legacy has been most unfairly tarnished, he might be right up at the front of the line (next to Larry Aurie). But the guy won three Stanley Cups with us, and even his most egregious act (the '97-'98 holdout) didn't prevent us from winning our second Cup.

A friend of mine (who is a hockey fan, but not a Wings fan) had a great point about Fedorov: "Why would Wings fans be mad that Fedorov didn't re-sign with the Wings?!" His point was that Fedorov had one more productive year with Anaheim, and then a season was lost to the lockout and Fedorov got old very fast. The 2004 team was a mess anyway, and Fedorov (like Shanahan would have become a cap casualty shortly after the lockout). The constant insistence that every player behave like Steve Yzerman and play their entire careers with one team has spoiled some Wings fans beyond reason. Particularly when finishing out your career with the Wings may actually have done more harm than good, as was the case with Fedorov.

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BTW, Fedorov doesn't qualify for this one, in my book, because he was far too successful to be labeled a scapegoat. If you're talking Wings whose legacy has been most unfairly tarnished, he might be right up at the front of the line (next to Larry Aurie). But the guy won three Stanley Cups with us, and even his most egregious act (the '97-'98 holdout) didn't prevent us from winning our second Cup.

A friend of mine (who is a hockey fan, but not a Wings fan) had a great point about Fedorov: "Why would Wings fans be mad that Fedorov didn't re-sign with the Wings?!" His point was that Fedorov had one more productive year with Anaheim, and then a season was lost to the lockout and Fedorov got old very fast. The 2004 team was a mess anyway, and Fedorov (like Shanahan would have become a cap casualty shortly after the lockout). The constant insistence that every player behave like Steve Yzerman and play their entire careers with one team has spoiled some Wings fans beyond reason. Particularly when finishing out your career with the Wings may actually have done more harm than good, as was the case with Fedorov.

Sergei took a lot of heat for his lack of goals in 96 and 99 (especially since those were two of Yzerman's best years goal-wise).

I think the Lemieux hit on Draper took a lot of heat off everyone in 96 (Primeau did get a lot after he was traded), and Ranford got a ton in 99 (though not as much as he deserved), but I think Fedorov can still be called a scapegoat. Not really one of the biggest, but still a scapegoat.

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Funny. Most people tend to forget, (or do they), that Dom didn't voluntarily forfeit a portion of his salary for the 2004 Season until AFTER Ken Holland "met" with him about the matter. Had he NOT done so, he would have been burned at the stake in Detroit. Period.

Funny how history gets "revised", isn't it?

Link/source?

Regardless of if you are making this up or not, Hasek should still be given credit for sacrificing money back when he easily could've said it's my money, I'm keeping it.

BTW, Fedorov doesn't qualify for this one, in my book, because he was far too successful to be labeled a scapegoat. If you're talking Wings whose legacy has been most unfairly tarnished, he might be right up at the front of the line (next to Larry Aurie). But the guy won three Stanley Cups with us, and even his most egregious act (the '97-'98 holdout) didn't prevent us from winning our second Cup.

A friend of mine (who is a hockey fan, but not a Wings fan) had a great point about Fedorov: "Why would Wings fans be mad that Fedorov didn't re-sign with the Wings?!" His point was that Fedorov had one more productive year with Anaheim, and then a season was lost to the lockout and Fedorov got old very fast. The 2004 team was a mess anyway, and Fedorov (like Shanahan would have become a cap casualty shortly after the lockout). The constant insistence that every player behave like Steve Yzerman and play their entire careers with one team has spoiled some Wings fans beyond reason. Particularly when finishing out your career with the Wings may actually have done more harm than good, as was the case with Fedorov.

When Fedorov left, it wasn't just him leaving at the time which aggravated a lot of Wings fans I think. The whole deal of holding out in 1998, and the perception whether it is right/wrong or fair/unfair that he doesn't always have the best work ethic or coasts contributed to the disliking of him leaving. That, and at the time of leaving still being offered a boatload of money and rejecting it, whether you or anybody else thinks it is his fault or management's fault for him not returning (that whole story we'll never fully know).

I see both sides. I'm sure he had his reasons for leaving. And whether the perception of the work ethic is fair/not, I think it isn't all that far out there in left field to say he coasted sometimes. At the same time though, without him in either 1997, 1998 or 2002, it would've been difficult winning those Cups. He obviously wasn't the sole reason they won it, but he certainly contributed plenty during those years.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan

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How they treated CuJo was disgraceful (particularly in light of the fact that this is usually a class act organization). But he isn't the biggest scapegoat in recent history. If you're talking about FAN reaction to the player (not just front office), Cheveldae has to be one of the immediate favorites, but Keith Primeau probably gets placed ahead of him because of how popular and productive he was for years in the Winged Wheel, and then he has one horrible playoff run in 1996 (17 games, 1 goal), and suddenly he became the face of everything wrong with this team in the playoffs (along with Coffey, who was also scapegoated, but actually shot at his own net). Primeau went on to have a very nice career in Carolina and Philadelphia, and his triple overtime goal against the Pens (2000, I think) made me very happy for him, since the knock on him was that he could never score in the clutch.

Also, while it's recency makes it hard to place into context, the Marian Hossa treatment this past year really disappointed me about a lot of Wings fans. Hossa carried the Wings throughout the 2008-09 season during stretches where the team couldn't buy a goal. He had an okay first series against Columbus, had a goal outright robbed from him against Anaheim, and basically did nothing but skate around the perimeter with the puck for the remainder of the playoffs. After the playoffs, it was revealed that his shoulder was so badly damaged that he needed surgery on it even though that was probably the last thing he wanted to do after signing a 10-year contract with Chicago. Hossa played all 23 games of the playoffs and didn't complain about the injury. He scored 6 goals and had 9 assists.

Meanwhile, Pavel Datsyuk had an injured foot and was limited to only 16 games. He scored ONE goal during our entire run through the '09 Playoffs. I love Pavel Datsyuk, but can somebody please tell me why Pavel was seen as the valiant hero braving injury, while Hossa (who scored 6 times as many goals) was viewed as the no-good bum? HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? Hossa came to the Wings as a one-year mercenary, and that's exactly how he left. Yet, I can't even wear his jersey in public because there are Wings fans dumb enough to think that he single handedly "cursed" us out of the '09 Cup. I don't put this "scapegoating" on the same level as Primeau, Cheveldae, and CuJo b/c it was just one year of service, but it still irks me nonetheless.

Regarding Primeau, I don't think he was nearly as much of a scapegoat as Cujo. Expectations were high for Primeau for sure though. He was drafted third overall (ahead of Jagr), and never really lived up to that promise.

It wasn't just the one bad season in '96. He actually only really had one good playoff year in Detroit in 95. Previous to that he hadn't scored a goal in the postseason in '92, 93 or 94 (in 25 playoff games). I think by 96 people in Detroit had just grown weary of watching him make a strong move to the net, only to lose an edge or the puck or both and go crashing into the net.

Primeau wasn't bad. He just never turned into the player in Detroit they hoped he would be.

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Link/source?

Regardless of if you are making this up or not, Hasek should still be given credit for sacrificing money back when he easily could've said it's my money, I'm keeping it.

There are no "links" remaining. The closest thing to the truth is here: From the Ottawa Citizen - June 06, 2006

"....Hasek later agreed to forfeit $3 million U.S. in salary...."

Go to your local library and look at the HARD COPIES of the local newspapers. The story is there. I'm not "making it up".

And once again, yes....he COULD have said "I'm keeping it." But do you really think his ego would have allowed him to be vilified in Detroit, after his "In my heart, I'll always be a Red Wing" speech?

Come on....

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There are no "links" remaining. The closest thing to the truth is here: From the Ottawa Citizen - June 06, 2006

"....Hasek later agreed to forfeit $3 million U.S. in salary...."

K... While I have little doubt he did much to make the goaltending bruhaha that season any easier, I fail to see how this makes him out to be an extra bad person or whatever like you are trying to make him out to be.

Go to your local library and look at the HARD COPIES of the local newspapers. The story is there. I'm not "making it up".

I'm not from a hockey oriented climate, I doubt I'd find any such articles at my local libraries.

And once again, yes....he COULD have said "I'm keeping it." But do you really think his ego would have allowed him to be vilified in Detroit, after his "In my heart, I'll always be a Red Wing" speech?

Come on....

You have a link/source to that speech as well?

And he could've easily been brick-headed and let his ego get in the way and wanted to keep all the money after being asked to sacrafice...

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How they treated CuJo was disgraceful (particularly in light of the fact that this is usually a class act organization). But he isn't the biggest scapegoat in recent history. If you're talking about FAN reaction to the player (not just front office), Cheveldae has to be one of the immediate favorites, but Keith Primeau probably gets placed ahead of him because of how popular and productive he was for years in the Winged Wheel, and then he has one horrible playoff run in 1996 (17 games, 1 goal), and suddenly he became the face of everything wrong with this team in the playoffs (along with Coffey, who was also scapegoated, but actually shot at his own net). Primeau went on to have a very nice career in Carolina and Philadelphia, and his triple overtime goal against the Pens (2000, I think) made me very happy for him, since the knock on him was that he could never score in the clutch.

Also, while it's recency makes it hard to place into context, the Marian Hossa treatment this past year really disappointed me about a lot of Wings fans. Hossa carried the Wings throughout the 2008-09 season during stretches where the team couldn't buy a goal. He had an okay first series against Columbus, had a goal outright robbed from him against Anaheim, and basically did nothing but skate around the perimeter with the puck for the remainder of the playoffs. After the playoffs, it was revealed that his shoulder was so badly damaged that he needed surgery on it even though that was probably the last thing he wanted to do after signing a 10-year contract with Chicago. Hossa played all 23 games of the playoffs and didn't complain about the injury. He scored 6 goals and had 9 assists.

I'm someone who still has disdain for Keith Primeau. Defensemen have always been my favorite players on the ice, and Paul Coffey was my first favorite Red Wing. I always looked at it as Primeau's requesting to be traded as having taken Paul Coffey away from my team. Looking back now, Coffey and Primeau were replaced by maybe my all-time favorite Red Wing - so it eases the aggression somewhat; but based on my experiences Primeau will always come across negatively to me.

I agree with your Hossa point, not that he was the biggest of all time - but that he was definitely a scapegoat. Just because a new contract couldn't be agreed upon (which everyone should have expected), Hossa was suddenly hit with all the blame. Of course, it's easier to blame the guy who leaves town. Don't get me wrong, he had a disappointing Finals - I would never argue he didn't - but everyone on the team lost those 4 games.

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In his career, Keith Primeau had a mindset that he wanted to be the star; not a star, but the star, no matter where he played or at what level. Part of this was being captain. When he realized that wasn't going to happen in Detroit for a long time, he set his sights elsewhere. Maybe he was a great leader; he just wasn't going to be great leader in Detroit.

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K... While I have little doubt he did much to make the goaltending bruhaha that season any easier, I fail to see how this makes him out to be an extra bad person or whatever like you are trying to make him out to be.

I didn't post the facts to illustrate that he was an "extra bad person", only to refute those who laud him for voluntarily forfeiting half his salary. That wasn't how it went down. It's similar to the way in which the story about how Dom became a Wing in the first place has evolved from the truth, which was that Dom had his agent call the Wings and tell them that he was leaving Buffalo, and that he wanted to play for Detroit - but that if Detroit didn't want him, then he'd sign with the Blues, to "the Wings pursued Hasek." There's quite a bit of difference between the two scenarios, but it's the false scenario which is "remembered" now as the truth.

I'm not from a hockey oriented climate, I doubt I'd find any such articles at my local libraries.

That's unfortunate. Because by this time, most of the "links" have been taken down as outdated. The only record of the truth of the matter lies in the actual written, not the electronic, version. That's kind of scary, if you think about it....

You have a link/source to that speech as well?

You're kidding, right? C'mon, you don't remember the flap that caused in Buffalo, when he made that statement during his retirement speech after the Cup Win in 2002?

Once again, unfortunately, the links have all been taken down. Can't even find a youtube clip of his retirement presser anymore. I suppose that presser must never have occurred, since there's no "link" to it....

There IS this, though: From a Fan Blog after the 2008 Cup Win

In discussing Dom's retirement after the Cup Win in 2008, it reminisces about his less than ideal departure from Buffalo, and his retirement speech after the 2002 Cup Win:

It was forgotten, almost as if it never happened.

Dominik Hasek was seated on a dais in Detroit's Joe Louis Arena for a news conference to announce his retirement Tuesday. Only when a reporter asked The Dominator about the Buffalo Sabres did he acknowledge his old team.

Hasek finally found his Holy Grail two weeks ago when he and the Detroit Red Wings won the Stanley Cup. He had won six Vezina Trophies as the NHL's top goalie and two Hart Trophies as the league's MVP -- all with the Sabres.

But the Stanley Cup completed his spectacular career.

"I am and I will be a Red Wing forever," Hasek read in his opening statement.

And just like that, the Sabres were rendered the same discarded fate as Chuck Cunningham on "Happy Days." For those unfamiliar with the sitcom: The oldest child of Mr. and Mrs. C was eliminated from the show's consciousness as if he never existed after the first season. -The Buffalo News, June 26, 2002

There's a link in the blog post to a rather scathing article in the Buffalo News. Unfortunately, that article no longer exists in cyberspace. It's been taken down. The only place to find it is in the public library in Buffalo.

Or perhaps that article never existed, after all, either....

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