• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
up2here

Mario Lemieux- Order Of Canada

Rate this topic

64 posts in this topic

Revisionist history, ftw.

If a player receives votes for a trophy, particularly first place votes, are they not challenging for said trophy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If a player receives votes for a trophy, particularly first place votes, are they not challenging for said trophy?

Depends on how many. And depends on who he is up against.

I don't think anyone would say Phaneuf challanged for the Norris in 2008.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends on how many. And depends on who he is up against.

I don't think anyone would say Phaneuf challanged for the Norris in 2008.

Take a vacation to Calgary...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bure scored a bunch of shorthanded goals too. What does that prove?

Yzerman was one of the league's better defensive centers for almost his entire career, including the 80s. Yzerman scored 155 points while challenging for the Selke trophy. I'm not aware of another instance where another player has scored even 135 points with a comparable defensive performance to what Yzerman displayed during the late 80s.

I know you have brought this up several times in the past and I really don't agree here. I've been watching hockey since the early 80's, so I've seen Yzerman's entire career and I don't remember anyone considering him to be a top defensive player until the mid-90s.

Getting 2 votes for the Selke does not make you a great defensive player. Some comparisons:

Gretzky:

- 1 vote in 1985 when scoring 208pts

- 1 vote in 1986 when scoring 215pts

Is the magic number of votes 2? He never challenged for the Selke in the 80s, not even close.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they're pretty even. I do believe Lemieux minus his injuries would have been the best. He was better naturally then Gretzky, but Yzerman is definitely in the top 5. But when you look at the whole picture, not just their total points, but their entire skill set, it becomes much harder.

As great as Yzerman was, he is not even in the top five players to play for the Red Wings. Here's the all-time ranking from the History of Hockey board: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817

1. Gordie Howe

2. Doug Harvey

3. Dominik Hasek

4. Nicklas Lidstrom

5. Red Kelly

6. Terry Sawchuk

7. Ted Lindsay

8. Steve Yzerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As great as Yzerman was, he is not even in the top five players to play for the Red Wings. Here's the all-time ranking from the History of Hockey board: http://hfboards.com/...ad.php?t=669817

1. Gordie Howe

2. Doug Harvey

3. Dominik Hasek

4. Nicklas Lidstrom

5. Red Kelly

6. Terry Sawchuk

7. Ted Lindsay

8. Steve Yzerman

I would rank Yzerman probably second All-Time among Red Wings.

As far as this list?

Hasek vs Sawchuk; That's fairly arguable, as the "All-time best-ever goalie" debate typically includes Hasek, Sawchuk, Plante, Roy, Brodeur.

Harvey vs Lidstrom; Most journalists and many experts agree that Lidstrom is better than Harvey, and is quite possibly the second best defenseman ever. While I'm not arguing him above Bobby Orr, the "Nobody is better than Bobby Orr, period, and you'll have to drug me to get me to say otherwise" attitude really ******* annoys me. Orr gets an automatic spot? Even Gretzky, who is so wonderful his number is retired for all teams, can be argued as "not the best ever" with some legitimate arguments. Why is Orr so protected?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would rank Yzerman probably second All-Time among Red Wings.

As far as this list?

Hasek vs Sawchuk; That's fairly arguable, as the "All-time best-ever goalie" debate typically includes Hasek, Sawchuk, Plante, Roy, Brodeur.

Harvey vs Lidstrom; Most journalists and many experts agree that Lidstrom is better than Harvey, and is quite possibly the second best defenseman ever. While I'm not arguing him above Bobby Orr, the "Nobody is better than Bobby Orr, period, and you'll have to drug me to get me to say otherwise" attitude really ******* annoys me. Orr gets an automatic spot? Even Gretzky, who is so wonderful his number is retired for all teams, can be argued as "not the best ever" with some legitimate arguments. Why is Orr so protected?

With respect to Bobby Orr, this may be the reason many would not consider any defenseman better than him:

- played in 9 full seasons in the NHL and won the Norris every single season, except his rookie year, but he did win the Calder that year.

- 3 Hart trophies

- I think he's the only defenseman to ever win the Art Ross, which he did 2 times

- 2 Conn Smythe trophies

- 1 Pearson.

He did all that when essentially being forced out of the game due to injuries at the age of 27. After that, he only played 36 more games over 3 seasons.

So if you want to compare Lidstrom and Orr both after their 27th birthdays, here is what you would get:

Orr - 8 Norris, 3 Hart, 2 Art Ross, 2 Conn Smythe, 2 Stanley Cups, 1 Pearson, 1 Calder +579

Lidstrom - 1 Stanley Cup +141

What if Orr had a long healthy career? Haven't you always been one of those guys that played the what if game and pro rated stats to fill in gaps where players where hurt, etc. Or do you only do that when you want to support your view? :P Seriously though, it doesn't matter with Orr, he accomplished enough in his short time in the NHL.

Edit - I added the +/- stats, which you should also note that Orr's did not include his rookie year when the stat was not being recorded. However, Orr does include more years here since he started at 18 vs. Lidstrom at 21

Edited by toby91_ca

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. But there were far better players than Steve (you know, not just forwards :P), whether you want to admit that or not. Points are not everything. Messier is second in points all-time. Is he even close to top 4 ever? No freaking way. Yzerman scored 155 points in the 80s, era with most goals per game. When he did that, he was NOT a good two way player. When he became one, his scoring took a big hit. No sane person would even consider taking Steve Yzerman over Mario Lemieux on any team. Ever.

Hmmmm, lets see, the year he won the Selke award he had 35G, 44A for 79Pts with a +/- of +28...

The year he scored 155 pts he had 65G, 90A and was a +17. You're looking at a difference of 11 goals given up while was on the ice when he had his best offensive season. As a matter of fact in 1992-93 when he scored 137 points he was a +33. So to say he only turned into a great defender when he was only scoring 80 points is asinine. The difference is, players like Fedorov, Kozlov, Shanahan showed up and took a lot of scoring pressure of Yzerman.

Bottom line is, when they were both in their primes, lets say the year Yzerman scored 155 and Mario scored 199 points, he was the third best player in the NHL when he was 2nd runner up to Gretzky and Lemieux for the Hart trophy. For all the offensive power Mario had he only finish his career with a +/- of +115, while Yzerman finished with a +185, never once getting a +/- higher than he did when he scored 137 points...

Remember, Lemieux was drafted 1st overall and was supposed to be the offensive machine that he was, it came down to the last day of the season when Jersey lost out on getting the 1st overall pick and getting Mario. Steve Yzerman was a second thought for the Wings and was never supposed to be the offensive talent let alone Selke type player that he turned out to be. Mario lived up to his hype & expectations, Yzerman not only surpassed his, but obliterated them...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would rank Yzerman probably second All-Time among Red Wings.

As far as this list?

Hasek vs Sawchuk; That's fairly arguable, as the "All-time best-ever goalie" debate typically includes Hasek, Sawchuk, Plante, Roy, Brodeur.

Harvey vs Lidstrom; Most journalists and many experts agree that Lidstrom is better than Harvey, and is quite possibly the second best defenseman ever. While I'm not arguing him above Bobby Orr, the "Nobody is better than Bobby Orr, period, and you'll have to drug me to get me to say otherwise" attitude really ******* annoys me. Orr gets an automatic spot? Even Gretzky, who is so wonderful his number is retired for all teams, can be argued as "not the best ever" with some legitimate arguments. Why is Orr so protected?

Who are these journalists that have Lidstrom above Harvey?

Harvey was doing things in his era that no one else came close to. Lidstrom is the best defenseman of his generation, but he's not way above anyone else and isn't doing things that no one else can come close to matching. Harvey was way ahead of his time, and last time I checked, he has more Cups and Norris trophies than Lidstrom. You have to compare the relative eras to see that Harvey is better. People just forget about Harvey way too quickly.

Orr is the best ever, though, and I'd like to see any arguments as to how anyone was better than him. I think it is an open and shut case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lemieux was 5x the player as Yzerman ever was.

Yeah that might be hyperbole. Maybe 4 times better. That sounds pretty good.

Agreed. If that. I mean seriously, Lemieux is 1-4 all time, Yzerman is top30-40.

As for Steve Y better defensively? Who cares? Lemieux is so much better offensively that his defense is irrelevant. The other team prayed they do not get scored on. Mario is up there with Gordie Howe. And do not forget - Yzerman was great defensively when he scored around 80 points, he was not good defensively when he was in his offensive prime.

But since this is LGW and most people are Yzerman worshipers, we are gonna get a lot of neg points.

For the record, overall I think Lemieux was better than Yzerman.

You're not going to get negs. here because you think this. See the tone of the post above and that's what gives you the negatives.

Again I think Lemieux was better than Yzerman, but sarcastic or not saying that Lemieux was 5x the player that Yzerman was is pretty asinine when Yzerman is one of the top point producers all time and has won three Championships playing a leading role in all three of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As great as Yzerman was, he is not even in the top five players to play for the Red Wings. Here's the all-time ranking from the History of Hockey board: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817

1. Gordie Howe

2. Doug Harvey

3. Dominik Hasek

4. Nicklas Lidstrom

5. Red Kelly

6. Terry Sawchuk

7. Ted Lindsay

8. Steve Yzerman

You can't really just pull any name from the list because they've played for Detroit at some time. Well, I guess you can, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Hasek shouldn't really be counted on an all time Red Wings list. He played less than 200 regular season games for Detroit. Of course he's one of the greatest goaltenders to ever play the game, but if you look at his whole career, most people wouldn't think of him as a Red Wing.

And Doug Harvey? He played 2 games for the Red Wings.

The other Red Wings on that list were great players, but I think it's difficult to compare such vastly different eras. Back then it was 6 teams (4 of which made the playoffs), 60-70 games a season, and drinking beer was considered off season training. The level of competitiveness just wasn't as high and I think nostalgia also tends to lead to ranking guys from the original 6 days higher on "all time" lists.

Yzerman as top 5 all time Red Wings is a pretty easy argument to make. And even top 3 is within reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This just in, Stevie gives Canada the Order of Yzerman. Country bows and feels unworthy.

possibly the best quote ever to grace this forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0