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nate94gt

Howard, Stuart, Eaves possible Tuesday against the Oil

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This s***ty play has been going on for the pass month. It's just more evident now because the two players that showed up every night are out.

This. Hard to disagree that Danny and Pav were the best out there every night. We have to muster up some of that last season stuff and start playing with a ton of heart. Babs has to get these guys ready night in and night out. Canucks are looking for real as usual and maybe more so this season with a lot more fire behind it. Can't stand the lackluster out of the gate play that they have brought lately. That Stars win was quite impressive and they once again rebounded with a poor showing after. 60 minutes fellas.

Edited by HankthaTank

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Howard's season stats are only marginally better than Osgood's at this point: 2.70 GAA, .908 SV% and 2.74 GAA, .905 SV%, respectively. And that's with Howard having two shutouts, while Osgood has none.

And, this just in from Twitter:

Outsider's arguments must have really compelled him.

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Guest CaliWingsNut   
Guest CaliWingsNut

I don't understand what Babcock is doing. I've always supported him, but his handling of the goalie situation last year and this year is just mind boggling. Howard is not playing well. Whether or not you blame him for losses, it's just a fact. Ozzie, on the flip side, is playing very, very well. Why NOT give him a chance? Howard, for the moment, has played himself OUT of a starting position, yet Babcock refuses to go to Ozzie who we know is capable of carrying the load if need be. It's almost like he forgets we have a 400-win goalie as our backup.

I understand he doesn't want to shake Howard's confidence, but that boat sailed a while ago. Howard has gotten into terrible habits and needs to retool his game (namely, not dropping to the ice every time the opponent comes into the zone), which he can't do if he's starting every game.

If I were Ozzie I'd be even more pissed than last year. Last year Ozzie deserved to not play, and he didn't. This year he deserves to play, and he's not.

Wake up Babcock!

How is Osgood playing "very, very well"?

sigh....

Please point out his last shutout?

3 goals on 46 shots is... ok.

Everyone's still in a daze over 400 wins I guess. He still lets in 3 goals before he tightens up.

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How is Osgood playing "very, very well"?

sigh....

Please point out his last shutout?

3 goals on 46 shots is... ok.

Everyone's still in a daze over 400 wins I guess. He still lets in 3 goals before he tightens up.

How's that any different than Howie's been lately? 3 goals still get by him. By your thought process, Howie sucks. Sorry, but Ozzie is playing very well now. Look at the 3rd period of the last game, or the 2nd period of the Avalanche game. He stood on his head and gave the team a chance to win. Sorry that you live in a different reality that we are.

And as I had posted in the Islanders GDT, the Wings have had 3 or more goals get by them about 9 times now in the last 11 games, and it's with BOTH goalies in net. Gee, maybe it's not the goalies that are the problems, but with how the defense has been playing? Seems like it to me and others here that are grounded in reality.

Edited by commadore183

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Guest CaliWingsNut   
Guest CaliWingsNut

How's that any different than Howie's been lately? 3 goals still get by him. By your thought process, Howie sucks. Sorry, but Ozzie is playing very well now. Look at the 3rd period of the last game, or the 2nd period of the Avalanche game. He stood on his head and gave the team a chance to win. Sorry that you live in a different reality that we are.

And as I had posted in the Islanders GDT, the Wings have had 3 or more goals get by them about 9 times now in the last 11 games, and it's with BOTH goalies in net. Gee, maybe it's not the goalies that are the problems, but with how the defense has been playing? Seems like it to me and others here that are grounded in reality.

Did I mention Howard? No. He's slumping.

However, Howard's slumping doesn't make Osgood better, as it seems the mentality is here.

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Seems like more of the pussified, "everyone gets a trophy" type mentality that is prevalent these days all over society to me.

"I know we should, but we can't bench little Jimmy, cause we might hurt his feelings and "shake his confidence""

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That's what I was thinking...

the black base is the goalie, and Happy is soooo tiny, the refs didn't see the need to call too many men....lol....

Well, he would only get away with that if he was on the Pens. :ph34r:

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Howard's season stats are only marginally better than Osgood's at this point: 2.70 GAA, .908 SV% and 2.74 GAA, .905 SV%, respectively. And that's with Howard having two shutouts, while Osgood has none.

i realize its a pretty close battle. however, reading most of the posts in this thread would lead someone to believe that osgood is putting up vezina numbers while howard is pulling a jim carey. i am fine with osgood getting some extra starts. last spring the wings had to ride howard and i think he ended up overworked. additionally, recently howard has been off a bit. but howard in my eyes is still hands down the better goaltender. also once you take age into account, its obvious where the wings need to be focusing their attention.

also, you seem to be implying that the shutouts skew the numbers? they are simply 2 games of the 30 howard has played in. he earned those games just as any other. maybe i am reading too much in, but it seems like you are trying to use his hard earned shutouts against him???

and regarding what sleepwalker said, its not about 'pussifying' the game, its about giving your top goaltender, and your team, the best chance to win. strategically resting goalies and letting them play through slumps is often the best long term strategy. its not about letting everyone have a trophy; its about developing your goalie long term.

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It's not all about the stats. I don't see why Howard's defenders have to attack Ozzie to build themselves up. The key to Ozzie's performances is that he's making the huge, key saves when necessary. When was the last time we heard "Huge save by Howard!" when it was ACTUALLY a big save and not just an accident.

Ozzie is giving this team a chance to win, Howard has stopped doing that.

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Regardless of whether you think Osgood lets in weak goals or not, the stats don't lie. Osgood is superior to Howard in every way over the past month. If one goalie has a tendency to let in weak goals, but only averages 2 total goals against and wins more than he loses, that's better than a goalie who doesn't let in weak goals but who averages 3 goals against with a losing record.

Hate who you want, but at least recognize statistical fact.

So???

Shots on goal is not always a perfect statistic because of blocked shots. If Lidstrom takes an unscreened shot from the point, it will probably be stopped, right? What if that shot is blocked instead? The same result, but the goalie's stats aren't affected.

Example:

If the Wings take 40 shots against LA with no blocked shots, and score 4 goals, then Quick's sv% is .900, right? But what if some of those 40 are blocked? Now we only have, say, 33 shots on goal. The high quality chances were still there, so the goals still happened; blind shots from the point are unlikely to get through and go in. So now Quick's sv% is .879, simply because his team performed better on defense.

It's not simply a matter of "this guy stops a higher percentage of shots, so he's better" because the stat does not account for whether it was a one-timer from the low slot or a puck flipped on net from outside the blue line.

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I don't want to speculate too much, but I can't help but think that Ken Holland likely had more than a small say in the decision to start Osgood tonight. With Babcock announcing Howard the starter previously, I'd be surprised if he just up and changed his mind on his own. Maybe, but I really doubt it, and there's absolutely historical evidence to suggest that it's happened before.

Regarding many of Outsiders claims, I'd like to chime in as someone who has heard a fair share of chatter over the years. What he's saying about guys talking is true, absolutely. Some talk more than others, some keep it more professional, some guys say things that will really surprise you. I've heard more about rather serious injuries that are kept quiet than anything though. I've heard gripes, and I believe others have too, but I do question how much is deeply-rooted and how much is standard in a player-coach relationship, much like many employee-boss relationships. Babcock is definitely not the "best friend" type of coach by a long shot. That's obvious. But I think the players do respect him even when they question him. They questioned Bowman too, but they absolutely respected him. As much as Babcock? I don't think so, but he's still the coach and they know that, even when they don't like that.

So all that to say, while I do believe Outsider's heard "things," I would venture to guess the nature of it playing out on the ice is less extreme than suggested. Again, we're all human and we all get frustrated and we all sometimes don't think our bosses know what they're doing. And you know what? Our bosses our humans too and oftentimes they really don't know what they're doing. But these guys are pro's for a reason. It might not always be rosy, and there might be games where things are off because of clashes behind the scenes, but these guys know what it means to be a team when it counts. Don't doubt that.

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wow are you guys shortsighted! sure howard has had some bad games lately, but you guys do realize for the season is goals against and save percentage are still both better than osgood?!?!?!?!

i am not against osgood getting more starts. having a balance to keep guys fresh is a good thing. having a backup you can be confident in is great as well.

however, i really dont understand all the babcock and howard hate. the team as a whole has been playing pretty poor lately. with all the injuries thats not really surprising.

and for all the love you guys are giving osgood, he has given up multiple first period goals 3 games in a row. so he is continuing the habit he has had the last couple years of giving up lots of goals early in games and forcing the team to have to come from behind.

anywho, can't we all calm down? can't we enjoy the fact that even with several key injuries we are still hanging in there and 2nd in the conference? can't we realize that no matter who is in goal, we aren't going to be as tough without 2 great forwards? (one of whom is all world, a selke winner and was a hart nominee recently; another who was leading the team in goals when he went down; and both of whom are guys that are on the ice in the last minute protecting a lead)

It's really a marginal difference between the two. Besides, Ozzie's save percentage and GAA are going to fluctuate more just on the sheer amount of starts he's gotten. Someone posted the stats for Howard's past 11 starts. It hasn't been pretty.

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I guess the thing I am failing to see is what has really been all that different between the 2. It not like they are worlds apart or anything. I do want Ozzie to get the looks for sure to rest Howie and better yet get a chance to prove something. I just don't really think it is as black and white as everyone is making it on here. Oh well. Goalie handling issues in Detroit, just another season.

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Guest Howard He Do It?!   
Guest Howard He Do It?!

I don't want to speculate too much, but I can't help but think that Ken Holland likely had more than a small say in the decision to start Osgood tonight. With Babcock announcing Howard the starter previously, I'd be surprised if he just up and changed his mind on his own. Maybe, but I really doubt it, and there's absolutely historical evidence to suggest that it's happened before.

This was the first thing I thought when I heard that Babcock changed his mind on starting Jimmy. It just seems too un-Babcock of him to do.

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This was the first thing I thought when I heard that Babcock changed his mind on starting Jimmy. It just seems too un-Babcock of him to do.

For the record, I still really like Howard and think he'll be fine long-run if we give him more time and space to develop with less pressure. I'm not down on him this year. I called this type of situation out again and again last year and blamed one person: Mike Babcock. He just seems more interested in pushing a starter role on Howard than letting him naturally grow into it. He's got the skill set to do it, but I really don't think he's been giving the space or time to develop more behind the scenes on his weaknesses. Tough to do when you're starting so many games and dealing with all that pressure both mental and physical.

And because I know you're a big fan, please keep in mind that anytime I personally say that I want to see Osgood start more, it has nothing to do with disliking or disapproving of Howard. Completely the opposite. I want to see him have a career here because I really like the guy. I just think all young guys who are just getting going in this league need 2-3 years playing with less pressure behind a vet who can show them the ropes. I think a gradual move into the starting role is far more effective long-term than a violent, relentless shove. That is all.

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Guest Howard He Do It?!   
Guest Howard He Do It?!

For the record, I still really like Howard and think he'll be fine long-run if we give him more time and space to develop with less pressure. I'm not down on him this year. I called this type of situation out again and again last year and blamed one person: Mike Babcock. He just seems more interested in pushing a starter role on Howard than letting him naturally grow into it. He's got the skill set to do it, but I really don't think he's been giving the space or time to develop more behind the scenes on his weaknesses. Tough to do when you're starting so many games and dealing with all that pressure both mental and physical.

And because I know you're a big fan, please keep in mind that anytime I personally say that I want to see Osgood start more, it has nothing to do with disliking or disapproving of Howard. Completely the opposite. I want to see him have a career here because I really like the guy. I just think all young guys who are just getting going in this league need 2-3 years playing with less pressure behind a vet who can show them the ropes. I think a gradual move into the starting role is far more effective long-term than a violent, relentless shove. That is all.

I didn't take any offense to your posts. My user name has more to do with my girlfriend randomly making it up one day then being a big fan of Howard.

Hell, even I want to see Ozzie get more starts. Not only does he deserve it, but it is becoming more and more necessary. Goalies who play 70+ games a season almost always fizzle in the playoffs. It's a benefit to the team to have Ozzie start more.

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I didn't take any offense to your posts. My user name has more to do with my girlfriend randomly making it up one day then being a big fan of Howard.

Hell, even I want to see Ozzie get more starts. Not only does he deserve it, but it is becoming more and more necessary. Goalies who play 70+ games a season almost always fizzle in the playoffs. It's a benefit to the team to have Ozzie start more.

Okay, it's cool. I just wanted to be clear because I do give certain fans of other players a hard time from time to time because I'm less than satisfied with a player. It's just not the case with Howard. I really like the guy as said and I just want to see him be given the best chance to get a solid career going. You're dead right about the 70 games thing. It's just nuts if you're not one of the handful of goalies that can maybe (???) handle it.

My ideal setup for Howard for his first three years would've looked something like this.

Rookie: 25-30 games, Osgood starts playoffs

2nd year: 40-45 games, Osgood starts playoffs

3rd year: 50-60 games, best goalie starts, but ideally and almost certainly it'd be Howard at this point.

They could still easily get back on track with this and I really think it'd be good for Howard's long-term development.

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How is Osgood playing "very, very well"?

sigh....

Please point out his last shutout?

3 goals on 46 shots is... ok.

Everyone's still in a daze over 400 wins I guess. He still lets in 3 goals before he tightens up.

Because shutouts are somehow the only measure of good play? 3 goals on 46 shots is a .939 sv % by the way, that's better than ok.

The reality is Jimmy has been playing average, at best. I'm a Howard fan and hope he is the future, but he hasn't been the Jimmy of last season.

Ozzy has been good, with flashes of great. You only have to look back to his 400th win against Colorado to see that.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/12/chris_osgood_outstanding_in_ne.html

Of course there's some grass is always greener, but Ozzy has warranted more starts. That doesn't mean he should be the starter, but he's definitely shown he's playing well.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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