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ShanahanMan

Red Wings Won't be Active at Trade Deadline

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The main reason for this topic ending up a lets get Bogo thread, is that we are all worried that Lids could( and i think will) retire at the end of this season. We dont seem to have anyone lined up to step into the fold and that is a big void to fill. The names floating about are all hearsay at the moment and I dont think Kenny will pull the trigger on any deal before the deadline. people are quotting figures and stats ref Bogo over E but Kindl's name is being mooted in the deal. Well stats prove that Kindl was more productive during the minors than Bogo was and Kindls role at present within the Wings system has been limited. Given a bigger role im sure Kindl will put numbers up, maybe not Lids type, but i would hasard a guess and say just as good as Bogo has at present. The key issue is, if Bogo was on the Wings D how much would his prodution go up? I agree we need to get someone in before Lids goes, Smith is going to be good for the Wings but we cant look

at him taking on the role that will be vacant, not for a few years anyway. So who's it gunna be?

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I have to be honest when Lidstrom decides to retire, whether it be this year or next, I am not worried at all about our D. Kronwall and Ericsson as the top pair doesn't put the fear of god in me. Also knowing that they would just go get the best D man available is comforting. This team is loaded with depth at D, Smith, Kolosov, Kindl, you can even throw Meech in there too.

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I have to be honest when Lidstrom decides to retire, whether it be this year or next, I am not worried at all about our D. Kronwall and Ericsson as the top pair doesn't put the fear of god in me. Also knowing that they would just go get the best D man available is comforting. This team is loaded with depth at D, Smith, Kolosov, Kindl, you can even throw Meech in there too.

I'm not really sure Kolosov will be an NHL defenseman at this point. I hope he makes it but right now he still needs to take that next step in his development. Logan Pyett excites me more at this point. He's cut from the same cloth as Meech, though, but he still might be an NHL player if we're lucky.

Our future on the back end doesn't look bad at all:

-Smith has the potential to be a top 2 defenseman

-Gleason Fournier has a ton of offensive potential too (playing at a point per game pace in the Q)

-Adam Almqvist looks like a could be a real stud... can't wait to see him play in NA. His hockey IQ is off the charts but right now he's built like a 13 year old girl

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I do think the plus minus does play a major role in todays NHL. Last year E a minus 15, he's definitely improving

By that reasoning though, Lidstrom is having a much worse season this year (-1) than last, when he finished +22. There's just too many other factors involved with +/- for it to be a very meaningful stat. Lids is clearly playing better this season, but as Drake pointed out the team defense and his pairings have changed considerably.

I have to be honest when Lidstrom decides to retire, whether it be this year or next, I am not worried at all about our D. Kronwall and Ericsson as the top pair doesn't put the fear of god in me. Also knowing that they would just go get the best D man available is comforting. This team is loaded with depth at D, Smith, Kolosov, Kindl, you can even throw Meech in there too.

Kronwall and E as our top pair absolutely puts the fear of god in me. Honestly I'm not totally convinced Kronwall can be a top pairing guy unless he's paired with a Lidstrom type player (maybe not that elite, but has great hockey sense). Because he's more of a Rafalski-type player in terms of his occasional awful defensive decisions.

And E has shown progress, but I don't know that he's a top pairing guy either.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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Players on lower seeded teams tend to have worse +/- ratings than those on higher seeded teams.

Why'd you quote my post and then post that? Obviously worse teams tend to have lower +/-'s, but it doesn't explain why the player in question has the lowest on his team when there are players on his team who have very good +/-'s.

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I forget who said it... but someone said we should wait until the off-season for Zach.

This makes a bit of sense, because right now the question is what will make the team better in April and May. More defense is what we need the most, but honestly will Zach bring an improvement in that short term?

All the chatter here seems to be pretty spot on, we don't know.

What we do know is right now the deal could be something along the lines of Hudler and Kindl.

I hate to say this but, the depth scoring of Hudler might be more important.

In the long run this trade is a no brainer. We have three players in the farm that are clear cut improvements over Hudler. If we throw in players that might be decent in the NHL we can push that number to six to nine player that could take his roster spot. Realistically only one of which could even step in right now and play (Mursak) and he is a downgrade.

Miller would most likely take Jiri's spot in the short term, and that is a downgrade overall. My question is, if Zach came here, in the short term for this season who does he replace? Salei or Ericsson right?

Is Bogo an upgrade over Ericson, at least to a greater degree than Hudler is an upgrade over Miller? If so, would it be worth the costs? Would Bogo even get regular playing time? Would it be possible to send him to GR for playing time and would that do him any good?

We would lose Kindl, which I think in the long run will be an okay defenseman. Yet he will be in the same mold as Ericsson and therefore I think expendable for an upgrade. I do think Bogo is an upgrade because he provides what we lack, and would be an instant fixture on the PP with a right hand cannon.

Personally, with Emmerton, Mursak ready to go. Tatar and Nyqvist following soon; and Jarnok and Teemu after that, why wouldn't you sacrifice Hudler?

The answer is because they aren't here now when Lidstrom is and the cup is within grasp. I am a proponent of this trade, and if it happens I won't complain. However, Holland and Co. must realize that all of these Ifs and question marks above add up to a possible short term weakening of the team, and a probable long term strengthening.

The deadline is for making the teams who can win stronger in the short term, and the bad teams stronger in the long term - Not vice versa.

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Guest Crymson   
Guest Crymson

Bogosian has performed to far below expectations thus far in his career, and he shows no signs of turning it around. He has produced neither points nor solid defense. He has thus far been a disappointment, bad team or not. I think that many of you are vastly blowing up his actual value.

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We have three players in the farm that are clear cut improvements over Hudler.

I wish that was true but it simply isn't right now. Of all the forwards on the Griffins only Tatar apears to have a talent level comparable to Hudler's. Mursak and Emmerton can't touch Hudler's skill set or hockey IQ.

At the moment Tatar doesn't appear to be ready to make the transition to the NHL as a scoring forward. By the end of the summer his strength and comfort-level might be there to step into the NHL. In the long run I think Tatar will be a really good player.

Let's not forget that Hudler was a star in the AHL. In his last season as a Griffin Hudler had 36 goals and 60 assists for 96pts in 76 games. That year he also put 6 goals and 16 assists for 22pts in 16 playoff games. So far we haven't seen that kind of dominant scoring from Tatar but I believe he's capable of doing it.

All our other forward prospects are either offensively inferior to Hudler or haven't played in the AHL yet. Plukkinen and Jarnkrok look like they'll be studs but they're both very young and will need some time in NA to adjust to the game.

People seem to forget how rare scoring forwards are in the NHL. Not many guys can put 57pts up in a season like Hudler did in his last NHL season. Last year only 62 players in the league had more points than that. Drafting a player who can put 60pts up in the NHL is a home run.

I really hope we have multiple players in the system who can come into Detroit and play a better offensive game than Hudler but you simply can't assume that. The transition from the AHL to NHL is pretty damn tough.

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Actually the oddest thing about Ericsson's +12 is the fact that Lidstrom is -1. +/- obviously isn't the be all and end all of stats (no one in their right mind would argue Lidstrom isn't a million times the d-man E is in every facet of the game aside from fighting-- and Lidstrom could probably be awesome at fighting if he felt like it). But still-- how is that possible? Luck can't be the answer either-- the Wings have played 62 games. Part of it is Ericsson's season throught the first 50 games or so was a mile above his play last year and part of it is Lidstrom's partners this season.... I think another issue is that our top 6 forwards just haven't been as dominant defensively as we're used to. Another big issue is Datsyuk's 19 games lost to injury.

I disagree with that statement. Ericsson had a very bad start and didn't get going until he was paired with Lidstrom. After that he got some confidence back and he started to be paired with Raf so E could focus on the defensive side without worrying about jumping into the play.

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

While I agree that Hudler is playing better lately, I would trade him in a deal for Bogosian and here's why...

1. Bogosian is a high draft pick and is a dman and is only 20 years old. Dmen take more time to develop than forwards do. I recall many years ago when the Hartford Whalers gave up on a young Chris Pronger. NHL history is filled with teams giving up on young dmen too soon because they did not show enough in their first few years in the league.

2. While Hudler's points are nice, he can be replaced. Not with Miller, Draper, Abdelkader or Helm. The Wings have no problem scoring goals. If anyone tells me the Wings cannot win the Cup this year without Jiri Hudler I will laugh. Hudler is not one of our studs. Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen (playoff version) are up front.

3. The Wings are aging on the blueline. No I am not suggesting that Bogosian is a future replacement for Lidstrom. No one is. Well Shea Weber is that franchise dman who could replace Nick albeit playing a much different style of game. Bogosian is still going to be a top 4 dman. I think he will be a #2 guy. The Wings are going to have to replace Nick and Rafalski eventually. Stuart and Kronwall are solid but I don't see either of them being #1 or #2 guys. Kronwall gets hurt too much to be counted on. Don't get me wrong. I like Kronwall. But as a #1 dman? No I don't.

Bogosian could be a bust but it's way too eary to label him that. It is very hard to step into the NHL and be a dominant force especially as a dman. Hedman in Tampa has had to learn and take his lumps so far in his young career. All I heard on his draft day was how he was the 2nd coming of Lidstrom. Even Lidstrom himself was not Mr Norris until 6 years into his career. Bogosian has the tremendous upside to be one of the best dmen in the league. He can be a star or he can be a bust. I think he's worth trading for if the rumoured price were true (Hudler, 1 of Kindl or Ericsson plus a 1st rounder). I think it would take alot more than that to be honest.

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I disagree with that statement. Ericsson had a very bad start and didn't get going until he was paired with Lidstrom. After that he got some confidence back and he started to be paired with Raf so E could focus on the defensive side without worrying about jumping into the play.

Rafi and Ericsson have been paired since the pre-season, injuries and occasionally juggling aside. Like 65% of their ice time has been together.

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I think no trades is a good idea. Our team just needs to strengthen mentally, not skill wise. When they play their best, they are unstoppable. I don't see anyone that we can afford coming in and making much of a difference. Hudler has been great, why would we trade him? because he sucked the first half of the season? I find it so odd how many people want trades made just because it's the deadline and other teams are doing it. We're 2nd in the west, we're doing pretty good.

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Agree the offseason is when to go after Bogosian, if at all - Hudler's offensive depth is more important in a playoff run today.

Besides Eklund posted today Bogo was headed to the Islanders! :)

Edited by egroen

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Guest Hatethedrake!   
Guest Hatethedrake!

Lidstrom put 60pts up as a rookie. The Wings knew they had someone special even back in his rookie season.

Different era where offense was more prevalent. Still 60 points is 60 points. My point is that teams give up on young dmen too quickly instead of being patient with them. Instead they flourish with other teams and the team is asking themselves WHY DID WE DO THAT?

Bogosian may not be available in the summer. I'd like to see the Wings take advantage of the situation now if Dudley does indeed wish to part with him. I think he gives his head a shake and asks himself WHAT WAS I THINKING? If Bogosian is moved it will be for a high price. Dudley is no fool.

Edited by Hatethedrake!

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Your right

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2010/10/todd_bertuzzi_will_play_tonigh.html

He was paired with Lidstrom at the start of the season. And he was paired with Salie during the preseason but sucked so bad they moved him up with Lidstrom.

I guess I'm mistaken on the preseason. I swear I remember them together, but oh well.

As for the regular season, remember that Ericsson got hurt in the first period of the first game and missed a month. Rafalski then had surgery after the 2nd game and missed a month himself.

When Rafi came back they were paired together and they've stayed together pretty consistently since.

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