• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Guest Crymson

Hudler's Future

Rate this topic

360 posts in this topic

So, Jiri, let's be honest for a second...

2010-11: 10 goals, 27 assists, 37 points. Good enough for 253rd, 129th, and 189th.

2008-09: 23 goals, 34 assists, 57 points. Good enough for 79th, 82nd and 78th.

2007-08: 13 goals, 29 assists, 42 points. Good enough for 186th, 117th and 137th. Cleary scored as many points in 18 fewer games.

2006-07: 15 goals, 10 assists, 25 points. Good enough for 179th, 420th and 302nd. Jason "Lazy and Sucks" Williams had as many goals.

So, Mr. Great Playmaker, riddle me this. How exactly does "great playmaker" and a best year of right around 80th in the league work?

How exactly is this "great playmaker" not ringing up assists left and right? How is it that a "great playmaker" is dead last in +/-, despite playing against other teams' third and fourth lines?

In 08-09, Hudler posted first-line numbers splitting time between the third and fourth lines. If he had played first-line ice time, based on Dats and Z, his even strength scoring would have added 6 goals and 4 assists to total out at 29g-38a-67pt. That would have put him 39th, 47th, 42nd. Still based on third line cohorts. Crank up the scoring a little bit, maybe 3 goals and 10 assists to represent skill level difference in linemates. That's 32g-48a-85pt, putting him 23rd, 22nd, and 13th. He probably would have been more like 14th or 15th as Dats and Z would have still been higher, but that's just a rough estimate. You figure out the kind of effect YOU think Datsyuk has on Hudler. After all, Hudler couldn't have possibly scored anywhere near 4g-10a-14pt in 11 without Datsyuk according to you, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That group of elite playmakers was based purely on their playmaking skill. Overall skill, Hudler would be closest to Gomez, who is a significantly better skater. If Hudler had Gomez' minutes and linemates, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. If Hudler skated like Gomez, he'd have those minutes and that ice time, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.

The problem with Hudler, though, is that he shouldn't have to play with Datsyuk type player to produce. He's had numerous chances over the years with top notch players. Hudler only spent 15% of his ice time at even strength with players you'd classify as 4th liners, the rest of the time he was with good players and he could not produce with them.

In the Regular season, Hudler got ~27% of his even strength points while playing with Datsyuk. In comparison, Filppula got ~25% of his points on a line with Franzen and Bertuzzi and only 2% of his pints with Datsyuk. If Filppula and Hudler are both playmakers, why is it that Filppula is able to carry lines and his max potential around LGW is 40-60 points, but Hudler is somehow able to reach 80-100 with you? A player needs to elevate their games while with other players not named Datsyuk, and Hudler can't do that. Filppula got over 50% of his points with Bertuzzi as a linemate, I mean, come on now.

Edited by Konnan511

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.

I'm starting to think you're messing with all of us...

Even if Hudler played 20 minutes a night with Datsyuk, he won't come even close to putting up these numbers in the playoffs.

GP G A P +/-

16 13 5 18 13

23 12 11 23 8

12 6 12 18 8

Who's jealous?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In 08-09, Hudler posted first-line numbers splitting time between the third and fourth lines. If he had played first-line ice time, based on Dats and Z, his even strength scoring would have added 6 goals and 4 assists to total out at 29g-38a-67pt. That would have put him 39th, 47th, 42nd. Still based on third line cohorts. Crank up the scoring a little bit, maybe 3 goals and 10 assists to represent skill level difference in linemates. That's 32g-48a-85pt, putting him 23rd, 22nd, and 13th. He probably would have been more like 14th or 15th as Dats and Z would have still been higher, but that's just a rough estimate. You figure out the kind of effect YOU think Datsyuk has on Hudler. After all, Hudler couldn't have possibly scored anywhere near 4g-10a-14pt in 11 without Datsyuk according to you, right?

Hudler played most of '08-'09 on the third line with Filppula and Samuelsson, who would be second-liners on any other team. In other words, he was playing with second-line players against third-line and third-pairing opposition. Those who play on the top two lines often must face off against very good defenders on the top two lines and top two pairings of the other team. Hudler, instead, was playing alongside very talented players against--generally--less-talented forwards and the third defense pairing of the opposition.

Hudler was also a fixture on the power play in that season, and almost exactly 50% of his points (28 of 57) were scored there.

Please stop trying to warp the stats, Eva.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to play devil's advocate (eva, you're the devil fyi), eva does bring up a fair point even if his numbers are arguably inflated (and seeing as the last few pages have been arguing the amount of inflation I'm going to leave that part alone).

Hudler does have both incredibly good vision and pretty good offensive tools (stickhandling, passing, shot, all of which could belong to a top 3 player that had sufficient other tools). However, because of his negative qualities (small size, low strength, unreliable skating, questionable commitment -- all to fairly notable degrees), he doesn't have the ability to produce on his own except against inferior competition. His offensive tools may be great, but he cannot reliably get to and maintain a scoring or offensive position. Obviously, inferior linemates are also going to further impact his already disadvantaged playmaking in this scenario and lead to crap production.

Stick him with linemates who can carry the play and suck attention of defenders onto them, on the other hand, and you do have an extremely potent offensive threat in Hudler. Give him enough space and you've got someone with the offense of a top 3 forward, playmaking and finish, for a 2nd/3rd line tweener's contract.

Filppula is quite different. He's not as good of a stickhandler or shooter as Hudler, doesn't have the same vision, doesn't shoot as much when he's in a good shooting position. However, he can skate, he can protect the puck better, his work ethic is likely better.. he doesn't have the tools to set up or finish at a top-3 point producing level no matter who you put him with, but he does have enough tools to make something out of nothing in most situations.

How apt that these comparisons are fairly comparable to a couple players on another recent cup winner, namely Bolland and Versteeg on the Hawks during their win.

Players like Filppula and Bolland are the sort of core players you build around after your stars, players like Hudler and Versteeg are the sort you add to a contender to make their offensive threat overwhelming. Is it any surprise that Filppula and Bolland continue to be core parts of their team while one of Hudler & Versteeg has been to Europe then scratched/shuffled all over the place, and the other has bounced several times in the last few months, even though the latter two have the best 2 offensive seasons out of all of them (on SCF-quality teams in those particular seasons)?

And what does this mean for Hudler?

If our team is sufficiently deep, use him as a PP specialist while playing him on a 3rd scoring line that might include occasional time with star forwards during hot streaks. If our team is not sufficiently deep, trade him and use the cap/roster space to acquire a forward that more accurately fits a bottom 6 role... or hold onto him in the hopes that the team can become the former while he's still on the roster. His current contract is just about right for the offense he can generate.. on the right team, that is. As a Wings fan, I prefer to keep Hudler -- or rather, I prefer a team that has the offensive depth to properly utilize a player such as Hudler. In the post-cap world, those teams are cup contenders.

Edited by Datsyerberger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That group of elite playmakers was based purely on their playmaking skill. Overall skill, Hudler would be closest to Gomez, who is a significantly better skater. If Hudler had Gomez' minutes and linemates, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. If Hudler skated like Gomez, he'd have those minutes and that ice time, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.

Even if it is based purely on their playmaking skill, all the players mentioned are stars in this league. Can you honestly expect to compare Jiri Hudler to these ppl and call them equal and not have people jump all over you?

As for the second part of your post, did i mention that both Helm and Eaves scored more goals than Hudler this year, playing exclusive 4th line minutes and pk?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hudler played most of '08-'09 on the third line with Filppula and Samuelsson, who would be second-liners on any other team. In other words, he was playing with second-line players against third-line and third-pairing opposition. Those who play on the top two lines often must face off against very good defenders on the top two lines and top two pairings of the other team. Hudler, instead, was playing alongside very talented players against--generally--less-talented forwards and the third defense pairing of the opposition.

Hudler was also a fixture on the power play in that season, and almost exactly 50% of his points (28 of 57) were scored there.

Please stop trying to warp the stats, Eva.

I only adjusted even strength stats, based on even strength time for Hudler as compared to Dats/Z. Otherwise his assists would have had the higher increase; he scored 17 goals and 12 assists at even strength. As for Flip and Sammy, Hudler played with a mix of Draper/Helm/Maltby/Kopecky/McCarty as much as he played with Flip/Sammy or anyone above them on the depth chart. Hudler being highly effective on the PP doesn't make him a bad player does it? Only Dats and Z outscored him on the PP that season among Wings forwards, and only Z did so this year, even when accounting for Dats' missed games. Hudler, even with his issues, still finished fifth among team forwards in PP points in 2010-11. Interestingly enough, actually, Dan Cleary's 8 PP points beating Todd Bertuzzi's 7 PP points was the only situation where Wings forwards finished in a scoring rank other than their rank based on PP ice time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if it is based purely on their playmaking skill, all the players mentioned are stars in this league. Can you honestly expect to compare Jiri Hudler to these ppl and call them equal and not have people jump all over you?

As for the second part of your post, did i mention that both Helm and Eaves scored more goals than Hudler this year, playing exclusive 4th line minutes and pk?

Did you know that goal scoring is not playmaking?

As for being stars in the league, did you know that Scott Gomez scored 7 goals and 38 points this past season in 80 games? He was the first line center in Montreal, and scored one more point and only four more assists than Hudler. How do you explain Gomez, who is a star in the league, having a season that is effectively worse than Hudler's as Gomez played against the weak East, in the weak Northeast, and put up comparable numbers with fewer goals while playing 3 1/2 more minutes at ES and 30 seconds more on the PP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only adjusted even strength stats, based on even strength time for Hudler as compared to Dats/Z. Otherwise his assists would have had the higher increase; he scored 17 goals and 12 assists at even strength. As for Flip and Sammy, Hudler played with a mix of Draper/Helm/Maltby/Kopecky/McCarty as much as he played with Flip/Sammy or anyone above them on the depth chart. Hudler being highly effective on the PP doesn't make him a bad player does it? Only Dats and Z outscored him on the PP that season among Wings forwards, and only Z did so this year, even when accounting for Dats' missed games. Hudler, even with his issues, still finished fifth among team forwards in PP points in 2010-11. Interestingly enough, actually, Dan Cleary's 8 PP points beating Todd Bertuzzi's 7 PP points was the only situation where Wings forwards finished in a scoring rank other than their rank based on PP ice time.

Hudler did precisely dick on the power play this year, despite being given every possible chance in the first half of the season.

I don't even feel like reading the rest of your post, given that it's sure to be based on logic that even you know is terribly flawed.

Edited by Crymson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Give Hudler an opportunity over an extended stretch with skilled offensive players and see what happens. You'll probably be shocked. If he comes anywhere NEAR what he did with Dats this season, his scoring will make Franzen jealous.

I did realize that goal scoring is not the same as playmaking. But do you realize then when you say "his scoring will make franzen jealous" that means you are talking about...gasp...scoring goals.

Did you know that goal scoring is not playmaking?

As for being stars in the league, did you know that Scott Gomez scored 7 goals and 38 points this past season in 80 games? He was the first line center in Montreal, and scored one more point and only four more assists than Hudler. How do you explain Gomez, who is a star in the league, having a season that is effectively worse than Hudler's as Gomez played against the weak East, in the weak Northeast, and put up comparable numbers with fewer goals while playing 3 1/2 more minutes at ES and 30 seconds more on the PP.

Now is where I use your logic. Scott Gomez has effectively scored around 60+ points a year for his career. He had a down year. The difference between Hudler and Gomez? Gomez has actually lived up to his "potential". Alex Ovechkin scored less than 40 goals this year, he must not be one of the most potent scorers in the NHL anymore. And I know you will take this line and swing it into Hudlers favor using the 2008 stats or his 11 game streak, but that's just showing how someone can use stats to twist an arguement.

Oh, btw, Gomez has played in an All-Star game or two, so I guess that's why I would call him a star.

Edited by Mitchmac33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly think you all have blinders on when you watch Hudler. I'm not going to sit here and praise him as though he's the greatest player on the planet but sometimes I think I'm not watching the same game as the rest of you. I can see his faults and when he has s***ty games (which he certainly did this year) but the absolute refusal of the vast majority of posters on this site to give absolutely any credit where credit is due to Hudler is just flat out absurd. I just don't understand how most posters on this site can honestly feel as though they're watching things objectively.

I don't think Hudler is a bad player, but he's not worth his contract at his current production level and in order to elevate his point production you'd have to put him on one of the top two lines, but he doesn't have the skill set to match up well or defend against other teams' top six forwards. He can't play higher than the third line because he can't defend, so he's stuck no higher than the third. Unless he starts producing from there then he isn't worth the money he's paid and needs to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

trade huds to NYR for dubinsky. grit hard worker and scorer. WIN

Something tells me Hudler's trade value isn't quite that good. An incredibly one-dimensional player who just had a poor year and is paid $3m will not fetch returns on the trade market. If he's traded, it won't be for any return; it'll be to free up the cap space he currently occupies.

Jesusberg likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

trade huds to NYR for dubinsky. grit hard worker and scorer. WIN

I love Dubinsky. We've got to find a way to get him here. He's got a ton of potential. Hudler won't be enough to get him here, and the Rangers would be silly to trade him, anyway. He's a real smart player, both offensively and defensively.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love Dubinsky. We've got to find a way to get him here. He's got a ton of potential. Hudler won't be enough to get him here, and the Rangers would be silly to trade him, anyway. He's a real smart player, both offensively and defensively.

He won't get here. The Rangers want to keep him. He's not UFA. That's pretty much the end of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. This thread is still chugging along. Eva, I think you've broken a record for player defense threads. I can't figure your unwaivering loyalty to Huds but it is impressive. He should make you his agent.

I personally think his days are numbered as a red wing. If Holland can find a way to trade, waive, release him before his contract is up, he will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. This thread is still chugging along. Eva, I think you've broken a record for player defense threads. I can't figure your unwaivering loyalty to Huds but it is impressive. He should make you his agent.

I personally think his days are numbered as a red wing. If Holland can find a way to trade, waive, release him before his contract is up, he will.

I disagree. If Holland wanted to get rid of Hudler, he'd have been gone at the deadline because he was as hot at that point as any Wing was all season. Babcock wasn't using Hudler in a top-six role, so trading Hudler for a top-pairing shut-down defenseman and simply replacing Hudler internally in the bottom six with a grittier, more defensive forward like Miller or Draper would have happened. Holland, and perhaps even Babcock, think later December through the end of February is what they can expect from Hudler going forward. Not what they saw at the start of the year.

Zeowingsfan likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree. If Holland wanted to get rid of Hudler, he'd have been gone at the deadline because he was as hot at that point as any Wing was all season. Babcock wasn't using Hudler in a top-six role, so trading Hudler for a top-pairing shut-down defenseman and simply replacing Hudler internally in the bottom six with a grittier, more defensive forward like Miller or Draper would have happened. Holland, and perhaps even Babcock, think later December through the end of February is what they can expect from Hudler going forward. Not what they saw at the start of the year.

I think it's more accurate to say that they hoped Hudler's performance around the time of the trade deadline would continue. I imagine they thought he'd finally found his groove again. Then he cooled down, was quiet down the stretch, and was very mediocre in the playoffs.

But hey, feel free to twist it around in your head as much as you'd like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's more accurate to say that they hoped Hudler's performance around the time of the trade deadline would continue. I imagine they thought he'd finally found his groove again. Then he cooled down, was quiet down the stretch, and was very mediocre in the playoffs.

But hey, feel free to twist it around in your head as much as you'd like.

Babcock suddenly dumping Hudler, who had the team's hottest scorer in February, to the fourth line for the last couple weeks because Franzen couldn't do anything offensively is not a matter of Hudler playing poorly. It's a matter of "f***, we 'need' Franzen to be in playoff mode." And it never happened. Hudler outplayed Franzen even after he was taken off of Datsyuk's wing and Franzen was put back there. And in the playoffs. Franzen was terrible for the last few months of the season including playoffs.

Pucks likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Babcock suddenly dumping Hudler, who had the team's hottest scorer in February, to the fourth line for the last couple weeks because Franzen couldn't do anything offensively is not a matter of Hudler playing poorly. It's a matter of "f***, we 'need' Franzen to be in playoff mode." And it never happened. Hudler outplayed Franzen even after he was taken off of Datsyuk's wing and Franzen was put back there. And in the playoffs. Franzen was terrible for the last few months of the season including playoffs.

Cool story, but not actually what happened.

Fact is, the Wings lost a couple games, with Huds-Pav-Cleary not scoring (and a combined -4 against SJ) so the lines got juggled, just like every other 'hot' line we've had got broken up. The next game Hudler played with Flip and Franzen. For pretty much the rest of the season a lot of people were juggled around. Hudler spent plenty of time with Flip, Hank, Cleary and plenty of time with lesser players.

There's no conspiracy by the man to keep Hudler down. The Wings' goal is to win, not maximize Hudler's scoring stats. Hudler doesn't get the minutes some other players get because he doesn't deserve them as much. We have a lot of good players. A lot deserve more minutes and/or a better role than they get. But there's only so many minutes and so many spots. Hudler was 8th in ESTOI, just barely behind Homer. The 6 guys significantly above him all bring much more to the team, with the possible exception of Bert. Hudler isn't a victim.

hooon and uk_redwing like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's more accurate to say that they hoped Hudler's performance around the time of the trade deadline would continue. I imagine they thought he'd finally found his groove again. Then he cooled down, was quiet down the stretch, and was very mediocre in the playoffs.

But hey, feel free to twist it around in your head as much as you'd like.

Babcock suddenly dumping Hudler, who had the team's hottest scorer in February, to the fourth line for the last couple weeks because Franzen couldn't do anything offensively is not a matter of Hudler playing poorly. It's a matter of "f***, we 'need' Franzen to be in playoff mode." And it never happened. Hudler outplayed Franzen even after he was taken off of Datsyuk's wing and Franzen was put back there. And in the playoffs. Franzen was terrible for the last few months of the season including playoffs.

Cool story, but not actually what happened.

Fact is, the Wings lost a couple games, with Huds-Pav-Cleary not scoring (and a combined -4 against SJ) so the lines got juggled, just like every other 'hot' line we've had got broken up. The next game Hudler played with Flip and Franzen. For pretty much the rest of the season a lot of people were juggled around. Hudler spent plenty of time with Flip, Hank, Cleary and plenty of time with lesser players.

There's no conspiracy by the man to keep Hudler down. The Wings' goal is to win, not maximize Hudler's scoring stats. Hudler doesn't get the minutes some other players get because he doesn't deserve them as much. We have a lot of good players. A lot deserve more minutes and/or a better role than they get. But there's only so many minutes and so many spots. Hudler was 8th in ESTOI, just barely behind Homer. The 6 guys significantly above him all bring much more to the team, with the possible exception of Bert. Hudler isn't a victim.

Classic Eva. I lol'd pretty hard at this sequence, and a lot at the bolded parts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool story, but not actually what happened.

Fact is, the Wings lost a couple games, with Huds-Pav-Cleary not scoring (and a combined -4 against SJ) so the lines got juggled, just like every other 'hot' line we've had got broken up. The next game Hudler played with Flip and Franzen. For pretty much the rest of the season a lot of people were juggled around. Hudler spent plenty of time with Flip, Hank, Cleary and plenty of time with lesser players.

There's no conspiracy by the man to keep Hudler down. The Wings' goal is to win, not maximize Hudler's scoring stats. Hudler doesn't get the minutes some other players get because he doesn't deserve them as much. We have a lot of good players. A lot deserve more minutes and/or a better role than they get. But there's only so many minutes and so many spots. Hudler was 8th in ESTOI, just barely behind Homer. The 6 guys significantly above him all bring much more to the team, with the possible exception of Bert. Hudler isn't a victim.

Franzen returned to the lineup against Anaheim. That game and the next game (the SJ game you mention) the HDC line played together sporadically as well as Franzen/Datsyuk/Holmstrom seeing a good amount of ice. Marleau's goal that made it 3-1 was scored with the Franzen/Datsyuk/Holmstrom line out.

And the thing is... you say "Hudler spent plenty of time with Hank." No he didn't. Filppula was a common linemate, Franzen and Cleary occassionally, and Abdelkader, Miller, and Eaves all too often. I have never said Hudler is a victim. But I will again use Franzen as an example. People use the fact that Franzen whips out amazing playoff performances to justify his negatives. What about Hudler this season? He put up a season that was, on the whole, second-line worthy. He did it by pulling out an amazing second half that LGW simply refuses to acknowledge. So what do you say? Is the ability to do something enough, even if you don't do it? The Franzen example says yes. The Hudler example says no. Pick one and make a decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He won't get here. The Rangers want to keep him. He's not UFA. That's pretty much the end of that.

Ill settle for prust then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Franzen returned to the lineup against Anaheim. That game and the next game (the SJ game you mention) the HDC line played together sporadically as well as Franzen/Datsyuk/Holmstrom seeing a good amount of ice. Marleau's goal that made it 3-1 was scored with the Franzen/Datsyuk/Holmstrom line out.

And the thing is... you say "Hudler spent plenty of time with Hank." No he didn't. Filppula was a common linemate, Franzen and Cleary occassionally, and Abdelkader, Miller, and Eaves all too often. I have never said Hudler is a victim. But I will again use Franzen as an example. People use the fact that Franzen whips out amazing playoff performances to justify his negatives. What about Hudler this season? He put up a season that was, on the whole, second-line worthy. He did it by pulling out an amazing second half that LGW simply refuses to acknowledge. So what do you say? Is the ability to do something enough, even if you don't do it? The Franzen example says yes. The Hudler example says no. Pick one and make a decision.

Datsyuk was out several games at the end of March, and Franzen missed a few as well. In that time, Hudler spent plenty of time with Hank.

You may not come out and say he's a victim, but your constant whining about his lack of ice time and the poor quality of his linemates says it for you. Even in this post you're whining about LGW not hating Franzen as much as Hudler.

Here's a fact for you. Franzen had a pretty crappy year, hardly any goals the last two months of the season. And he still outscored Hudler by 18 goals. He scored just as many points as Hudler from February on. And he's better in other areas. Add that to his previous playoff performances and you're damn right it justifies his negatives. He's a far better player than Hudler and far more deserving of premium ice time and linemates.

You blamed Hudler's first half on Modano. Now you're blaming Franzen for kicking Hudler out of the top 6. Every single thing you sayabout him is about some great disservice being done to him either in how he's treated on the ice or how he's perceived by fans. The funny thing is you actually believe that Hudler was 'amazing' the second half of the season and Franzen was 'terrible', when Hudler scored 2 more points.

Like I said previously, it's not about Hudler. Not everyone can play with Datsyuk or Zetterberg. The guys that played with them more than Hudler, deserved it more than Hudler.

Mitchmac33, uk_redwing and hooon like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0