Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Scoring isn't really the Issue


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:27 PM

Let's say for the sake of argument that Jiri Hudler had scored 50-60 pts. (instead of 37 pts) and was the same -7 on defense. This would bring him in line with what everyone really thinks that he'll turn out to be. Does that make any difference in the San Jose series? Does it stop them from dominating possession and endlessly cycling the puck? Do we go on to win that one, beat Vancouver, and play Boston for the Cup? Does he somehow match up better against quality forwards? Does our goals against go down?

Now replace Hudler with Wolski, Zherdev, Tim Connolly, etc.? Do we win with any of these guys? Against the good teams?

If not, maybe the problem isn't that we don't score enough. What do you all think?

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#2 Rice

Rice

    Hank.

  • Gold Booster Mod
  • 5,957 posts
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:34 PM

On the flip side, more offense = better puck possession = less time in your own zone.
In a 2005 study published by the journal Nature, researchers at Durham University in England concluded that, across a range of sports, we found that wearing red is consistently associated with a higher probability of winning. The researchers also suggested that red's effect may subconsciously intimidate opponents in athletic contests, especially when the athletes are equal in skill and strength.

#3 Konnan511

Konnan511

    #FreePulkkinen

  • HoF Booster
  • 10,339 posts
  • Location:Traverse City, Mi

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:35 PM

I think we all agree that shotty defense was the reason we ultimately failed?
The Best Of BC
HankthaTank
- Squirrels, they hate to be thrown. / Why is the magical unicorn named Brian... Jedi - I just downloaded the "kids" book, "Go the F--k to Sleep" as narrated by Samuel L. Jackson on my kindle. I am now ready to be a daddy. / *Checks Router* No, I'm positive I didn't hit the "Wings Defense Sucks" button. Electrophile - I'm just glad the Wings were able to win despite the Curse of Brian. ACallToArms - I think Trey needs to put something about payroll tax and deferred income in his sig... Edicius - I'd rather [have] a soundbite of me saying "I like (man sausage)" rather than "I like Crosby".

#4 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:38 PM

I think we all agree that shotty defense was the reason we ultimately failed?



That's the thing, I'm not sure that we all do agree on that. Especially when I see people suggesting picking up Zherdev, Connolly, and the like. It seems to me that when talking about forwards the only things many people on this forumn look at are points and cap hit.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#5 Konnan511

Konnan511

    #FreePulkkinen

  • HoF Booster
  • 10,339 posts
  • Location:Traverse City, Mi

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:40 PM

On the flip side, more offense = better puck possession = less time in your own zone.


Or conversely, smarter defensmen who have a quick and precise outlet pass will help gain the offensive zone for more scoring chances!
The Best Of BC
HankthaTank
- Squirrels, they hate to be thrown. / Why is the magical unicorn named Brian... Jedi - I just downloaded the "kids" book, "Go the F--k to Sleep" as narrated by Samuel L. Jackson on my kindle. I am now ready to be a daddy. / *Checks Router* No, I'm positive I didn't hit the "Wings Defense Sucks" button. Electrophile - I'm just glad the Wings were able to win despite the Curse of Brian. ACallToArms - I think Trey needs to put something about payroll tax and deferred income in his sig... Edicius - I'd rather [have] a soundbite of me saying "I like (man sausage)" rather than "I like Crosby".

#6 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:42 PM

On the flip side, more offense = better puck possession = less time in your own zone.


That's exactly what I'm talking about, and exactly the wrong way to look at things. Which is the reason why Scotty Bowman preached forechecking, backchecking, and defensive responsibility. The team that possesses the puck most is not the one with the better offense, it's the one who's better at taking it away from the other team. On good teams the forwards have to play defense as much as the defenseman do. And as Konnan just mentioned, the d-men are usually the launch pad for the offense as well.

Edited by kipwinger, 14 June 2011 - 03:44 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#7 Rice

Rice

    Hank.

  • Gold Booster Mod
  • 5,957 posts
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:42 PM

Or conversely, smarter defensmen who have a quick and precise outlet pass will help gain the offensive zone for more scoring chances!

I don't disagree. This was why depending on Rafalski was an issue -- he was a big part of the offense but often a liability on defense. If someone can step in and replace 70-80% of his offense but play better defense, the team will be better for it.
In a 2005 study published by the journal Nature, researchers at Durham University in England concluded that, across a range of sports, we found that wearing red is consistently associated with a higher probability of winning. The researchers also suggested that red's effect may subconsciously intimidate opponents in athletic contests, especially when the athletes are equal in skill and strength.

#8 LeftWinger

LeftWinger

    42 years in Detroit! Time to spend the rest in paradise!

  • Silver Booster
  • 8,914 posts
  • Location:HART - MI

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:44 PM

spend the majority of the money on defense, BUT if Holland could find a player to put in 30-40, maybe 50 more goals and can score consistently (unlike Franzen) then why not add that dimension?

Edited by LeftWinger, 14 June 2011 - 03:44 PM.

Bring Fedorov Home For A Day!

 

He Needs To Retire A Red Wing.

 

When Gordie Leaves Us, the NHL MUST Retire The #9.


#9 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:52 PM

spend the majority of the money on defense, BUT if Holland could find a player to put in 30-40, maybe 50 more goals and can score consistently (unlike Franzen) then why not add that dimension?



Because forwards have to play defense too. Because between 2008 when we won a cup and 2009 when we didn't our goals against increased by almost 100, so 50 extra points don't really matter. Because both teams playing in the cup finals right now were in the top five in "Goals for" AND had the lowest "Goals against" in the league. Because if you pick up forwards that don't play defense you may score more, but everyone scores more on you as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think we need to sign a forward. But he better play good defense (unlike everyone I mentioned already) or he's not worth having. I'll take a 15-20 goal scorer who plays stud defense over Wolski, Zherdev, Connolly, or Hudler for that matter.

Edited by kipwinger, 14 June 2011 - 03:58 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#10 droz

droz

    Prospect

  • Member
  • 35 posts

Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:56 PM

What ufas are out there that score 30+? It would be nice to have a 40 goal scorer are last was hossa

#11 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,510 posts
  • Location:Washington, District of Columbia

Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:01 PM

What ufas are out there that score 30+? It would be nice to have a 40 goal scorer are last was hossa



There were only twenty eight players with over 30 goals this year, and only five over 40. Few or none of them are UFA's, with any realistic possibility of leaving their current teams, and if they do, you're going to pay a fortune.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#12 brett

brett

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,133 posts
  • Location:NJ

Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:31 PM

I was always told defense before offense.

If you can withstand the other teams pressure, clear the front of the net and have a good smart outlet pass your going to spend a lot less time in the defensive zone. I would love to see a stay at home defense men added as well as a scoring defense men now that raffy is gone

The PK also killed us in the playoffs...

But if you want you can also pick apart the offense. Pretty confident in Zetterberg Datsyuk Franzen Cleary Flippula and Bertuzzi when they are healthy. Would be cool to have another top 6 since homer is on the down fall. I would also love to see a big power forward that brings it every night and is good on the PK. Ala Brandon Prust

Edited by brett, 14 June 2011 - 04:35 PM.


#13 pucktividi

pucktividi

    the usual suspect

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,332 posts
  • Location:Croatia

Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:18 PM

With all the respect to the OP...then how the hell we've lost 8 one goal games vs Sharks past 2 Playoffs?
Last year Howard wasn't good and Lebda and Meech were patrolling the blue line,but this year Jimmy was very good and our D men were solid so I'm totally with Babs on signing top 6 forward to provide us more scoring depth

#14 pucktividi

pucktividi

    the usual suspect

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,332 posts
  • Location:Croatia

Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:18 PM

sry double post

Edited by pucktividi, 14 June 2011 - 05:20 PM.


#15 CenterIce

CenterIce

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,989 posts

Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:28 PM

Let's say for the sake of argument that Jiri Hudler had scored 50-60 pts. (instead of 37 pts) and was the same -7 on defense. This would bring him in line with what everyone really thinks that he'll turn out to be. Does that make any difference in the San Jose series? Does it stop them from dominating possession and endlessly cycling the puck? Do we go on to win that one, beat Vancouver, and play Boston for the Cup? Does he somehow match up better against quality forwards? Does our goals against go down?

Now replace Hudler with Wolski, Zherdev, Tim Connolly, etc.? Do we win with any of these guys? Against the good teams?

If not, maybe the problem isn't that we don't score enough. What do you all think?


Detroit was 2nd in goals per game and 23rd in goals against per game, this season. Yes, the team defense is what needs to improve.

By the way. Those numbers change to 4th and 5th; respectively, in the playoffs.

Edited by CenterIce, 14 June 2011 - 05:29 PM.


#16 LeftWinger

LeftWinger

    42 years in Detroit! Time to spend the rest in paradise!

  • Silver Booster
  • 8,914 posts
  • Location:HART - MI

Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:56 PM

With all the respect to the OP...then how the hell we've lost 8 one goal games vs Sharks past 2 Playoffs?
Last year Howard wasn't good and Lebda and Meech were patrolling the blue line,but this year Jimmy was very good and our D men were solid so I'm totally with Babs on signing top 6 forward to provide us more scoring depth

I totally agree! Which is why I said spend most the money on making the D better, so we don't have as many third period farts...but I said IF Holland can get a goal scorer, then why not? If the D brings the GAA back up to the top 5, then adding a player that can score 30+ goals would be icing on the cake! Again, to the OP, I am not saying don't get better defensively, but after that, if we can add scoring, then do it!

Bring Fedorov Home For A Day!

 

He Needs To Retire A Red Wing.

 

When Gordie Leaves Us, the NHL MUST Retire The #9.


#17 GMRwings1983

GMRwings1983

    The Killer is Me

  • Silver Booster
  • 21,064 posts
  • Location:Jerkwater, USA

Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:25 PM

I think we all agree that shotty defense was the reason we ultimately failed?


You could also say that our crappy powerplay in game 7 is why we ultimately failed.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 14 June 2011 - 07:26 PM.

According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#18 Shaman

Shaman

    Die hard Red Wing fan and realist.

  • Silver Booster
  • 3,846 posts
  • Location:Kalamazoo Michigan (WMU)

Posted 14 June 2011 - 08:02 PM

I think we all agree that shotty defense was the reason we ultimately failed?

I would say lack of scoring lost for them against the Sharks. None of the games were games the Wings lost purely because of bad Defense, and a couple of them they would have won with a key goal late.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#19 unsaddleddonald

unsaddleddonald

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 748 posts

Posted 14 June 2011 - 08:37 PM

I would say lack of scoring lost for them against the Sharks. None of the games were games the Wings lost purely because of bad Defense, and a couple of them they would have won with a key goal late.


Excellent point! We needed timely goal scoring that just never came in that SJ series. Mule was hurt, i'll give him that, but its tough to explain the way he ended the regular season.

Back to the SJ series, did anyone really feel confident in Cleary, Bert, Fil, Huds, Homer, etc. to score a goal when Pav and Z weren't out there? It got to a point where we didn't really have a chance of scoring unless the Euro twins were on the ice. The players I mentioned are nice DEPTH forwards but they are not players who can score on demand. We have two, and again I don't know what Mule will end up being. But you look at the top West teams: Chicago, SJ, and Vancouver. Something they all have in common is that they all have AT LEAST 3 elite/dangerous forwards who are a threat to score...

Chicago: Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa (Bolland?)
SJ: Thornton, Heatley, Marleau, Pavelski, Clowe, Couture, Setoguchi
Van: Twins, Kesler, Burrows

We have two elite players, I feel we need one more....

#20 dragonballgtz

dragonballgtz

    Yu-Gi-HOE

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,488 posts

Posted 14 June 2011 - 09:50 PM

I would say lack of scoring lost for them against the Sharks. None of the games were games the Wings lost purely because of bad Defense, and a couple of them they would have won with a key goal late.

Consistency is our offensive weakness. Sure we had the 2nd highest scoring offense in the regular season but in the playoffs (where it truly matters) our depth disappeared for the majority of the SJ series. I think we need that consistent 2nd line center that does not vanish for long stretches.





Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users