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Zherdev and Emery?

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That's a few great articles Red Wings Addict, I haven't read them in years, but it doesn't change the fact that Cleary credits much of his success today to guys like Chelios and Schneider...

I'm not saying that's the only reason he made the team but he has said it has a huge part to do with it...

Anyway, bottom line is none of you guys know what would happen if a guy like Zherdev played here, I just don't see the problem with signing a guy with his skill set to a one year contract. If it works out he would be a HUGE addition, if he doesn't, we're out 1.5-2 mil for one season...........

By the way, don't even try a comparison between Zherdev and Hudler they are completely different.... And if there is one person here that wouldn't give up Hudler at 2.875 and take on Zherdev at 1.8..... you're insane.... lay down the crack....

Edited by krsmith17

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That's a few great articles Red Wings Addict, I haven't read them in years, but it doesn't change the fact that Cleary credits much of his success today to guys like Chelios and Schneider...

I'm not saying that's the only reason he made the team but he has said it has a huge part to do with it...

He has said it was helpful that Schneider put in the good word that got him a tryout. Nowhere has he said anything in public about Schneider and Chelios inspiring him to work hard. What got Schneider to put in a good word for Cleary was the fact that the latter did work hard. And even if you do actually have friends who know him, and even if he does attribute some of his success to Chelios and Schneider, they're not in the locker room anymore.

What I'm trying to say is that your use of Cleary as an example isn't nearly as valid as you're putting it out to be. Too, even amongst players who have turned their careers around in their late 20s, Cleary is something of an extreme example.

To change the subject (and I refer to your words toward me earlier in this thread), you'll probably have a more enjoyable experience here if you discontinue your habit of losing your temper when others disagree with you.

Edited by Crymson
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He has said it was helpful that Schneider put in the good word that got him a tryout. Nowhere has he said anything in public about Schneider and Chelios inspiring him to work hard. What got Schneider to put in a good word for Cleary was the fact that the latter did work hard. And even if you do actually have friends who know him, and even if he does attribute some of his success to Chelios and Schneider, they're not in the locker room anymore.

What I'm trying to say is that your use of Cleary as an example isn't nearly as valid as you're putting it out to be. Too, even amongst players who have turned their careers around in their late 20s, Cleary is something of an extreme example.

To change the subject (and I refer to your words toward me earlier in this thread), you'll probably have a more enjoyable experience here if you discontinue your habit of losing your temper when others disagree with you.

No, you're right they are not in the locker room anymore but there are still some great role models in the Red Wings locker room that can mold this kid into an unbelievable player, both on and off the ice, Cleary being one of them. I think the reason for his arrogant attitude is due to the fact that pretty much everywhere he has played throughout his career he has been top of his team in skill level, I think watching guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg day in and day out would change that pretty quickly.

Either way you want to look at it, you cannot deny this guys skill level, and like I've said time after time, I see absolutely no harm what so ever in signing him to a one year contract at under 2mil... Anyway if you disagree, fair enough, let's just agree to disagree, but there is no way you can say that signing him would not work out, because no one knows that for sure until it actually happened...

As for me "losing my temper"... I'm not losing my temper, I just can't stand when people try to present their opinions as fact. You tend to think what you say is the end all be all, and that irritates the hell out of me...

A lot of people on here tend to attack other people for their opinion or ideas and it's ridiculous... probably the worst forum I've seen online for that sh!t...

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No, you're right they are not in the locker room anymore but there are still some great role models in the Red Wings locker room that can mold this kid into an unbelievable player, both on and off the ice, Cleary being one of them. I think the reason for his arrogant attitude is due to the fact that pretty much everywhere he has played throughout his career he has been top of his team in skill level, I think watching guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg day in and day out would change that pretty quickly.

Either way you want to look at it, you cannot deny this guys skill level, and like I've said time after time, I see absolutely no harm what so ever in signing him to a one year contract at under 2mil... Anyway if you disagree, fair enough, let's just agree to disagree, but there is no way you can say that signing him would not work out, because no one knows that for sure until it actually happened...

Holland does not take chances in this regard. Zherdev is a highly-skilled player who has shown repeatedly that he has a poor attitude and lacks maturity. Signing Zherdev would mean introducing this attitude into the locker room. Whereas players like Cleary entered the team after already having reformed themselves, and whereas players like Lang and Hudler are positive presences in the locker room even if they were/are lazy at times on the ice, Zherdev has long been declared an abrasive presence behind the scenes as well as a poor worker on the ice.

There's a big difference.

As for me "losing my temper"... I'm not losing my temper, I just can't stand when people try to present their opinions as fact. You tend to think what you say is the end all be all, and that irritates the hell out of me...

What I said in this event was fact, as Dan Cleary has stated it in public.

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I did some digging for those of you who were asking for evidence of Zherdev's poor attitude and difficulties in the locker room. This article documents the difficulties the Blue Jackets had with him. This piece (amongst many others) documents the some of the issues the Flyers faced with him; by all indications, he hasn't changed much since his days with the Jackets. It also makes the great point that if Laviolette, probably the only coach equal to Babcock in willingness to take his players to task, wasn't able to shape Zherdev into a responsible player and a responsible teammate, then it's unlikely anyone will be able to.

Edited by Crymson
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zherdev- if he is super cheap give it a year see how he pans out. i dont think the wings can turn every lump of coal into a diamond but i also believe they have a special way of lighting a fire under the ass of players who have gained a bad rep when it comes to attitude and work ethic. it really is kind of an honor for lack of a better term to play for the wings, a perennial cup contender. this i feel makes some players realize the chance they were given and they come around.

emery- always liked him, he is injury prone but i feel if we can keep his games to a decent number he can really be a solid #2. i am confident he is the type of guy that would embrace the chance to play in detroit and clean up his act and get his attitude and work ethic in line. between him and conklin thats a tough one maybe conks gets the edge for having played in our system before. i like them both over ozzie i think, its hard to say it i am a big fan but i think ozzies years are behind him and his groin is going to blow out every year if he continues to play.

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zherdev- if he is super cheap give it a year see how he pans out. i dont think the wings can turn every lump of coal into a diamond but i also believe they have a special way of lighting a fire under the ass of players who have gained a bad rep when it comes to attitude and work ethic. it really is kind of an honor for lack of a better term to play for the wings, a perennial cup contender. this i feel makes some players realize the chance they were given and they come around.

Hitchcock, Tortorella and Laviolette were unable to change him. Those three are taskmasters and do not tolerate laziness. If they were unsuccessful, he's probably not going to be changed. I don't think Zherdev cares about being on a contender. He joined a Philly team last season that had come within two games of winning a Cup the year before, and he was as lazy and unmotivated as ever.

I think people vastly overestimate the ability and inclination of the Wings to reform lazy players who have bad attitudes. I would like to hear from you some examples of those whom you feel the Wings have done this with, as I don't remember any in the recent past; indeed, Holland tends to just not sign such players. As noted earlier, Cleary's change in attitude and work ethic occurred before he joined the team, so it could be argued (validly) that he is not a good example.

Finally, note that though Zherdev's contract last season was for only one year at a reasonable rate and there were numerous teams in need of scoring, he cleared waivers. It is almost unheard-of for a player with a significant amount of skill to clear waivers entirely, especially when that player has a very low cap hit and no more years left on his contract. It speaks volumes about his poor attitude and lack of work ethic that nobody was willing to take a chance on him for even the 2-3 months remaining in the season.

emery- always liked him, he is injury prone but i feel if we can keep his games to a decent number he can really be a solid #2. i am confident he is the type of guy that would embrace the chance to play in detroit and clean up his act and get his attitude and work ethic in line. between him and conklin thats a tough one maybe conks gets the edge for having played in our system before. i like them both over ozzie i think, its hard to say it i am a big fan but i think ozzies years are behind him and his groin is going to blow out every year if he continues to play.

Emery has skill, but his health is too much of a question mark. This probably accounts for much of why he currently lacks a job despite having played very well in the playoffs for the Ducks.

Edited by Crymson
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Emery has health issues so does Osgood and most of the older goaltenders that would take a #2 spot.. if any of them didnt have any worries of injury then they probably wouldnt be free agents waiting to hear from a team to fill a back up role. how many free agent goalies got signed that were not expected to be a number one?

back to zherdev. has he played for a legit contenders? not really, yeah he was in new york and philly but his ice time dropped and was put in the role of a chump on those teams. what im saying if a team makes him happy he might work a little harder if he thinks he has a good chance of winning and really what does hudler do that he doesnt?

bertuzzi,cleary- questionable attitudes and work ethic came to detroit and stepped it up

eaves, miller- both maybe not as questionable but showed that they were kinda on the outs or about to get lost in the sea of nhl turned to ahl lifers

hasek- was lazy he came to the wings and knew he was in a great situation to make a run at the cup

or how about every draper maltby helm type playeer that probably would be nowhere near what they are now had they not played in our system.

playing in detroit is a privilege if they dont see something in you or potential to make a change into something you wont be here long. players know this and it makes them work harder.

should i go on or do you know understand what it means when a historic team that is pretty much the favorite to win 8 of 10 games and make a long run in the playoffs for many years to come can change the attitude of a player. well try to put it this way. you sit and eat s***ty cake every day crymson you begin to hate it and you dont want your s*** cake anymore. you start off by showing up late to eat said s*** cake not finishing it all giving it away etc. now out of the blue youre given a cake that taste great and you realize what you had what you lost and what you have now. im sure you can relate. you tasted that moist almost too tasty to be true cake and even you would get off your ass and work to make sure you never got the s*** cake again.

its not fail proof and its not going to work every time but its worth a shot. wearing the winged wheel can do mysterious things for has beens and should have beens and never weres.

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Emery has health issues so does Osgood and most of the older goaltenders that would take a #2 spot.. if any of them didnt have any worries of injury then they probably wouldnt be free agents waiting to hear from a team to fill a back up role. how many free agent goalies got signed that were not expected to be a number one?

Emery suffered a hip injury so severe that he nearly won the Masterton for returning to the ice. No other goalie on the market is even nearly as much at risk for injury as he is. As for why some goalies don't have contracts, it's presumably because almost every team has a backup goalie already.

back to zherdev. has he played for a legit contenders? not really, yeah he was in new york and philly but his ice time dropped and was put in the role of a chump on those teams. what im saying if a team makes him happy he might work a little harder if he thinks he has a good chance of winning and really what does hudler do that he doesnt?

Hudler does not have a bad attitude, puts forth effort, and is liked in the locker room. He's not a prima-donna, and he listens to the coach. Those are basic traits shared by the average hockey player, and they are traits that Zherdev does not possess.

Zherdev has most certainly played for contenders. Philly was absolutely a contender. So was New York. Both made the playoffs in the years he played for them, and both made it to the second round. Zherdev was initially given a decent amount of ice time by both teams. In both cases, his ice time dropped because he played terribly and did not meet the expectations of his coaches.

bertuzzi,cleary- questionable attitudes and work ethic came to detroit and stepped it up

As noted, Cleary's attitude changed before he came to Detroit. There are numerous articles, which can be found earlier in this thread, in which he notes this. Bertuzzi never had issues with work ethic or attitude. He was always willing to stick up for his teammates; he was always in good shape, his immense strength being an asset to his play; and he played with an edge. He's in the twilight of his career, so he especially wants to win.

eaves, miller- both maybe not as questionable but showed that they were kinda on the outs or about to get lost in the sea of nhl turned to ahl lifers

Both are naturally hard workers who had earlier had difficulty in finding a niche with other teams. They fit well into Detroit's system. Work ethic and attitude were never a problem for either of them.

hasek- was lazy he came to the wings and knew he was in a great situation to make a run at the cup

Hasek was never lazy. He was possibly the best goaltender of the past eight years when he came to the Wings. He asked to be traded because he wanted to win the Cup before he retired and did not feel that he had that chance with the Sabres. Hasek was always a consummate athlete and a compulsive trainer.

or how about every draper maltby helm type playeer that probably would be nowhere near what they are now had they not played in our system.

This isn't what we're talking about. I asked for examples of players whom the Wings had reformed from lazy, selfish and irresponsible to responsible, hard-working and possessed of a team-player attitude.

playing in detroit is a privilege if they dont see something in you or potential to make a change into something you wont be here long. players know this and it makes them work harder.

Hitchcock does not tolerate bad attitudes, sloppy play or laziness. Tortorella does not tolerate bad attitudes, sloppy play or laziness. Laviolette certainly does not tolerate bad attitudes, sloppy play of laziness. Those three are famous for being taskmasters and for punishing those players who do not measure up to their expectation, just as Babcock is and just as Scotty Bowman was. The results of Zherdev's bad attitude, sloppiness and laziness were the exact same as they would be here: he was demoted, then benched, and, in Philadelphia, ultimately kicked off the team. He met the same fate on those teams as he would in Detroit under similar circumstances.

should i go on or do you know understand what it means when a historic team that is pretty much the favorite to win 8 of 10 games and make a long run in the playoffs for many years to come can change the attitude of a player.

This was not the case for the likes of Robert Lang and Jason Williams, amongst others. Some players just frankly don't care about working hard. They just want their money.

For the record, no team has ever won eight out of every ten games in an 82-game season. The closest were the '95-'96 Red Wings, who won .756% of their games. This was an NHL record, and it is not a feat that the Red Wings--or any other team--have been able to even nearly equal on a consistent basis, even with the post-lockout removal of ties from the record system.

well try to put it this way. you sit and eat s***ty cake every day crymson you begin to hate it and you dont want your s*** cake anymore. you start off by showing up late to eat said s*** cake not finishing it all giving it away etc. now out of the blue youre given a cake that taste great and you realize what you had what you lost and what you have now. im sure you can relate. you tasted that moist almost too tasty to be true cake and even you would get off your ass and work to make sure you never got the s*** cake again.

Zherdev has shown that his "cake" is getting paid.

its not fail proof and its not going to work every time but its worth a shot. wearing the winged wheel can do mysterious things for has beens and should have beens and never weres.

If it were worth a shot to any team in the league, Zherdev would have been picked up on waivers last season. As things stood, nobody general manager wanted Zherdev on his team.

Edited by Crymson
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LOL Crymson you are such a f*ckin clown... you think you know everything about everything and you definitely don't... I think it's pretty sad actually... you state every one of your opinions as fact, just because you say something doesn't make it true...

Let me tell ya somethin, your statement above is purely speculation just like everything else you are saying about Zherdev. However, what I said about Cleary and all the problems he had before he came to Detroit, and how he credits Chelios and a couple other guys on the team to turning his life around is fact. I live a half hour from his parents place (where he grew up) and my cousin is good buddies with him, grew up with him, through school, right through minor hockey, and still trains with him every summer. I've met Cleary several times and no, he didn't personally tell me all his personal sh!t but he's after telling my cousin many times, so what you're trying to say about him changing before he joined the team and it having nothing to do with the team is way off base. Stop trying to act like you know everything, and unless you have the facts shut the f*ck up...

Oh, and as for Zherdev not working out on this team... it is once again pure speculation... I'm not saying he would definitely work out play alongside Pav and Hank but I don't see the harm in signing a guy with his talent and potential to a one year contract at under $2mil...

I agree with you dude...100%

:thumbup:

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I agree with you dude...100%

:thumbup:

You agree that I "think I know everything and I don't" when I quoted Cleary's own words on the matter? Interesting.

As for my speculation, predicting how any player will do on any team is just that: speculation. However, some speculation has enough evidence behind it to allow for an accurate prediction. The evidence in this event apparently provided every GM in the league with the means to make the prediction that Zherdev would not do well on their team, as when he was put on waivers, not a single one wanted him despite his low salary and the imminent end of his contract.

If you're going to declare that all speculation is equally invalid, then, for example, you'd better be willing to annul an enormous number of rulings made in every court in this nation by every judge and jury. In the absence of indisputable facts that prove guilt or innocence--which by no means happens in every trial--the ruling of the judge or jury is based on speculation drawn from the available evidence. Likewise, the decisions that GMs make on whom they choose to sign--i.e., whom they feel would be a good fit for the team--and whom they choose not to sign is based in significant part (with the other factors being cost, available cap space, considerations on the future, etc. etc.) on speculation on said players, drawn from their own evidence they've gathered on said players. Also likewise, any post made by any member of these forums on whether or not any player would be a good fit for the team is speculation. Why you think that the fact anyone's opinion is speculative makes it invalid is unclear to me.

Edited by Crymson
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Emery has health issues so does Osgood and most of the older goaltenders that would take a #2 spot.. if any of them didnt have any worries of injury then they probably wouldnt be free agents waiting to hear from a team to fill a back up role. how many free agent goalies got signed that were not expected to be a number one?

back to zherdev. has he played for a legit contenders? not really, yeah he was in new york and philly but his ice time dropped and was put in the role of a chump on those teams. what im saying if a team makes him happy he might work a little harder if he thinks he has a good chance of winning and really what does hudler do that he doesnt?

bertuzzi,cleary- questionable attitudes and work ethic came to detroit and stepped it up

eaves, miller- both maybe not as questionable but showed that they were kinda on the outs or about to get lost in the sea of nhl turned to ahl lifers

hasek- was lazy he came to the wings and knew he was in a great situation to make a run at the cup

or how about every draper maltby helm type playeer that probably would be nowhere near what they are now had they not played in our system.

playing in detroit is a privilege if they dont see something in you or potential to make a change into something you wont be here long. players know this and it makes them work harder.

should i go on or do you know understand what it means when a historic team that is pretty much the favorite to win 8 of 10 games and make a long run in the playoffs for many years to come can change the attitude of a player. well try to put it this way. you sit and eat s***ty cake every day crymson you begin to hate it and you dont want your s*** cake anymore. you start off by showing up late to eat said s*** cake not finishing it all giving it away etc. now out of the blue youre given a cake that taste great and you realize what you had what you lost and what you have now. im sure you can relate. you tasted that moist almost too tasty to be true cake and even you would get off your ass and work to make sure you never got the s*** cake again.

its not fail proof and its not going to work every time but its worth a shot. wearing the winged wheel can do mysterious things for has beens and should have beens and never weres.

Avery.

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ahhh old sean avery, yes.

its all boiled down to this-

if zherdev could be had for cheap, is it worth the risk knowing that the red wings have been able to polish a few turds in their day (not all of them)

what hockey player wouldnt be excited about playing with datsyuk zetterberg franzen etc and try to prove people wrong and buckle down?

if the price is right try it for year. if its a bust throw him to grand rapids or else where. with the cap space take a chance maybe? he does have talent and skill could babcock death stare him into being a hard working team player?

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ahhh old sean avery, yes.

its all boiled down to this-

if zherdev could be had for cheap, is it worth the risk knowing that the red wings have been able to polish a few turds in their day (not all of them)

what hockey player wouldnt be excited about playing with datsyuk zetterberg franzen etc and try to prove people wrong and buckle down?

if the price is right try it for year. if its a bust throw him to grand rapids or else where. with the cap space take a chance maybe? he does have talent and skill could babcock death stare him into being a hard working team player?

Because every single GM passed on him when he was put on waivers--something VERY unusual for a player capable of scoring--I've got to believe that they all thought the risk wasn't worth the potential reward. That speaks volumes about Zherdev.

I don't remember the last time a player with a lot of talent and only one year left on his contract cleared waivers near the end of a season.

Edited by Crymson

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The problem with Zherdev is that he is Russian...and I do not mean that in the bigoted way at all. The added obstacle with him turning things around like Dan Cleary, etc....is that when things get tough, you don't change, you can just take your toys and go home to Mother Russia and the KHL. This would most likely happen before he would change his way of thinking and attitude.

As far as Emery goes...I think he MIGHT be a risk worth taking if the decision came down between him and Osgood. Hes 10 years younger, even with the hip injury (which I didn't notice during the playoffs this year?) he is an upgrade. And we have Joey as insurance...so its not the end of the world if it doesn't work out.

They should invite these guys to camp at the very least if they're still unsigned.

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You agree that I "think I know everything and I don't" when I quoted Cleary's own words on the matter? Interesting.

As for my speculation, predicting how any player will do on any team is just that: speculation. However, some speculation has enough evidence behind it to allow for an accurate prediction. The evidence in this event apparently provided every GM in the league with the means to make the prediction that Zherdev would not do well on their team, as when he was put on waivers, not a single one wanted him despite his low salary and the imminent end of his contract.

If you're going to declare that all speculation is equally invalid, then, for example, you'd better be willing to annul an enormous number of rulings made in every court in this nation by every judge and jury. In the absence of indisputable facts that prove guilt or innocence--which by no means happens in every trial--the ruling of the judge or jury is based on speculation drawn from the available evidence. Likewise, the decisions that GMs make on whom they choose to sign--i.e., whom they feel would be a good fit for the team--and whom they choose not to sign is based in significant part (with the other factors being cost, available cap space, considerations on the future, etc. etc.) on speculation on said players, drawn from their own evidence they've gathered on said players. Also likewise, any post made by any member of these forums on whether or not any player would be a good fit for the team is speculation. Why you think that the fact anyone's opinion is speculative makes it invalid is unclear to me.

nope, I agree with him that you are an insufferable, ignorant know-it-all...and your arrogance is laughable.

We just cant take anything you say seriously.

:thumbup:

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nope, I agree with him that you are an insufferable, ignorant know-it-all...and your arrogance is laughable.

We just cant take anything you say seriously.

:thumbup:

I guess I'll just need to resign myself to you not liking me.

Have a nice day!

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I guess I'll just need to resign myself to you not liking me.

Have a nice day!

its not that I dont like you...im sure you are a cool guy, its just sooo hard to get passed your arrogance. I just wish you would respect other peoples opinions.

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its not that I dont like you...im sure you are a cool guy, its just sooo hard to get passed your arrogance. I just wish you would respect other peoples opinions.

I'm not deliberately arrogant, and I do have respect for the opinions of others; unfortunately, I often simply come across very badly on the Internet.

Edited by Crymson

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I'm not deliberately arrogant, and I do have respect for the opinions of others; unfortunately, I often simply come across very badly on the Internet.

well said dude...I completely understand now

cheers to that :beerbuddy:

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No to both. Emery, while talented, is a head-case and a locker room cancer. And if you think Lang was lazy, you've seen nothing with Zherdev.

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LOL Crymson you are such a f*ckin clown... you think you know everything about everything and you definitely don't... I think it's pretty sad actually... you state every one of your opinions as fact, just because you say something doesn't make it true...

Let me tell ya somethin, your statement above is purely speculation just like everything else you are saying about Zherdev. However, what I said about Cleary and all the problems he had before he came to Detroit, and how he credits Chelios and a couple other guys on the team to turning his life around is fact. I live a half hour from his parents place (where he grew up) and my cousin is good buddies with him, grew up with him, through school, right through minor hockey, and still trains with him every summer. I've met Cleary several times and no, he didn't personally tell me all his personal sh!t but he's after telling my cousin many times, so what you're trying to say about him changing before he joined the team and it having nothing to do with the team is way off base. Stop trying to act like you know everything, and unless you have the facts shut the f*ck up...

Oh, and as for Zherdev not working out on this team... it is once again pure speculation... I'm not saying he would definitely work out play alongside Pav and Hank but I don't see the harm in signing a guy with his talent and potential to a one year contract at under $2mil...

you mad bro

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