Jonas Mahonas 1,872 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 KRS, you are partially right in that the GM has an advantage with the RFA over the UFA. Where you steer wrong is when you pretend that pressing that advantage sith every payer doesnt have consequences. AA puts up 60 pts and asks for the going rate for a 60 pt player = 6 million. Yzerman says 4.5 million take it or leave it. AA goes to arbitration and gets 6 million for 1 year. Now instead of having a high scoring 2C locked up for 7 more years at a fair rate, he hits the open market and goes to the highest bidder. Thus, you still have to pay FMV to a player, no matter RFA/UFA status. RFA contract negotiations do NOT give the team a lowballing advantage with proven players. The real advantage comes in the form of having the ability to lock the player up long term before another team can in ufa. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said: KRS, you are partially right in that the GM has an advantage with the RFA over the UFA. Where you steer wrong is when you pretend that pressing that advantage sith every payer doesnt have consequences. AA puts up 60 pts and asks for the going rate for a 60 pt player = 6 million. Yzerman says 4.5 million take it or leave it. AA goes to arbitration and gets 6 million for 1 year. Now instead of having a high scoring 2C locked up for 7 more years at a fair rate, he hits the open market and goes to the highest bidder. Thus, you still have to pay FMV to a player, no matter RFA/UFA status. RFA contract negotiations do NOT give the team a lowballing advantage with proven players. The real advantage comes in the form of having the ability to lock the player up long term before another team can in ufa. Yzerman has already shown that he's willing to play hard ball with RFA's. If Athanasiou demands X amount of dollars and Yzerman doesn't believe he's worth X amount of dollars, he will ship him out. IF Athanasiou files for arbitration, gets a one year contract, Yzerman will not allow him to walk as a free agent next offseason. He will trade his ass at some point next season for a solid return. Likely scenario IF Athanasiou puts up 60 points next season: Athanasiou asks for $6.5M, Yzerman offers $4.5M. They eventually meet in the middle and settle around $5.5M. 1 F.Michael reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 32 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Why? Athanasiou >>> Nielsen, and it's not even close... Sure. Wasn't my point. Neither of them are a 2C on anything but a lottery team in this league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 33 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: It absolutely does matter that they're two years older... They won't sign a long-term deal? What's your point? I didn't say anything about term. I said both will sign for under $6M. I personally think they will lock them up for at least 4-5 years at that hit though. A very poor example that fits your argument... I'm as high on Mantha as anyone, but I don't think he will put up 75-85 points. I think he could on a more talented team. On this team, he could possibly reach 75 if literally everything goes right, but even then, probably not... Why? Athanasiou >>> Nielsen, and it's not even close... That is my point that they won’t sign for 5 years at 6 mill if they get like 30-35 goals, you don’t agree that’s fine , If they do it would be something like 6 x3 and walk as a ufa and test the market He probably won’t but if he stays healthy and gives his all and gets the ice time he could, I believe he’s got all the abilities and the team values him more than AA so if the time comes and one stays it’s him You just proved my point , Nielsen is better than AA so there’s zero doubt who will bring back more in a trade, when the time comes and we have to get some d help it’ll be someone like AA(I’m predicting it’ll be him over some coming prospects,could be wrong) not frans Nielsen although I’d ship Nielsen out ASAP if possible Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Yzerman has already shown that he's willing to play hard ball with RFA's. If Athanasiou demands X amount of dollars and Yzerman doesn't believe he's worth X amount of dollars, he will ship him out. IF Athanasiou files for arbitration, gets a one year contract, Yzerman will not allow him to walk as a free agent next offseason. He will trade his ass at some point next season for a solid return. Likely scenario IF Athanasiou puts up 60 points next season: Athanasiou asks for $6.5M, Yzerman offers $4.5M. They eventually meet in the middle and settle around $5.5M. Then AA is as good as gone. We're talking about a player that held out for 3 months basically for an extra 30 bucks or something. His camp will go to war with Yzerman and his camp will lose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The 91 of Ryans 3,015 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 Ducks are Buying Out Perry I predict a value signing + resurrection year for everyone's favorite little newt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 29 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Sure. Wasn't my point. Neither of them are a 2C on anything but a lottery team in this league. No disagreement there... 20 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Then AA is as good as gone. We're talking about a player that held out for 3 months basically for an extra 30 bucks or something. His camp will go to war with Yzerman and his camp will lose. If that's the case, so be it. I'm definitely not opposed to trading Athanasiou. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 25 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: That is my point that they won’t sign for 5 years at 6 mill if they get like 30-35 goals, you don’t agree that’s fine , If they do it would be something like 6 x3 and walk as a ufa and test the market He probably won’t but if he stays healthy and gives his all and gets the ice time he could, I believe he’s got all the abilities and the team values him more than AA so if the time comes and one stays it’s him You just proved my point , Nielsen is better than AA so there’s zero doubt who will bring back more in a trade, when the time comes and we have to get some d help it’ll be someone like AA(I’m predicting it’ll be him over some coming prospects,could be wrong) not frans Nielsen although I’d ship Nielsen out ASAP if possible Again, if they're putting up 30-35 points yearly, there's ZERO chance Yzerman allows them to walk. He would either trade them, and get a massive haul, or sign them to market value once they hit UFA. Assuming they continue on the same trajectory, barring a massive upswing in production, they will not exceed $6M as RFA's. If one of Athanasiou or Mantha are moved, it will be AA. I agree. I've never said otherwise. What are you talking about? Nielsen is better than Athanasiou? In what world? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 47 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Again, if they're putting up 30-35 points yearly, there's ZERO chance Yzerman allows them to walk. He would either trade them, and get a massive haul, or sign them to market value once they hit UFA. Assuming they continue on the same trajectory, barring a massive upswing in production, they will not exceed $6M as RFA's. If one of Athanasiou or Mantha are moved, it will be AA. I agree. I've never said otherwise. What are you talking about? Nielsen is better than Athanasiou? In what world? Meant goals right? Can’t force a guy to sign longterm if they sign 2-3 years and want to test the market sure we can trade them when the time comes and get low value like jets just did or choose one of the 2 which is what I think we’d do and get as much value back for the other f***ed up , obviously meant AA is better than Nielsen which is why I’m advocating to move him when the time comes for the dman cause we won’t get nothing back for Nielsen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: Meant goals right? Can’t force a guy to sign longterm if they sign 2-3 years and want to test the market sure we can trade them when the time comes and get low value like jets just did or choose one of the 2 which is what I think we’d do and get as much value back for the other f***ed up , obviously meant AA is better than Nielsen which is why I’m advocating to move him when the time comes for the dman cause we won’t get nothing back for Nielsen Yes, goals, not points. No, you can't force them to sign, but if they want out, you can trade them. The Trouba example is a poor one. That was an awful trade, and the whole situation was handled poorly. I have more faith in Yzerman than to muck that up as bad as Cheveldayoff did. 1 F.Michael reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonas Mahonas 1,872 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 KRS, you are acting like Yzerman being a screw to his own players wont have ramifications. Something tells me you work a desk job and dont deal with clients directly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Jonas Mahonas said: KRS, you are acting like Yzerman being a screw to his own players wont have ramifications. Something tells me you work a desk job and dont deal with clients directly. "Being a screw". AKA Being a good general manager. 2 e_prime and F.Michael reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Yes, goals, not points. No, you can't force them to sign, but if they want out, you can trade them. The Trouba example is a poor one. That was an awful trade, and the whole situation was handled poorly. I have more faith in Yzerman than to muck that up as bad as Cheveldayoff did. I 100% have faith in yzerman I’m just saying I think when the time comes we’ll lock up mantha longterm and AA will be dealt ... we’ll see what happens Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Ducks are Buying Out Perry I predict a value signing + resurrection year for everyone's favorite little newt. Hello Edmonton! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, nyqvististhefuture said: I 100% have faith in yzerman I’m just saying I think when the time comes we’ll lock up mantha longterm and AA will be dealt ... we’ll see what happens I don't disagree with that though... What we were debating is how much they will make after this season as RFA's... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 2 hours ago, The 91 of Ryans said: Ducks are Buying Out Perry I predict a value signing + resurrection year for everyone's favorite little newt. 49 minutes ago, Dabura said: Hello Edmonton! Honestly, could be a great signing for Holland. I f***ing hate Corey f***ing Perry, but even at the age of 34, he can still be a productive player in the right system. He's one season removed from being an annual 50+ point producer. Throw him on McDavid's wing and I don't doubt for a second that he could put up 25+ goals, 50+ points again. 2 Dabura and amato reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 Just now, krsmith17 said: Honestly, could be a great signing for Holland. I f***ing hate Corey f***ing Perry, but even at the age of 34, he can still be a productive player in the right system. He's one season removed from being an annual 50+ point producer. Throw him on McDavid's wing and I don't doubt for a second that he could put up 25+ goals, 50+ points again. Yup. The Oilers are absolutely desperate for a talented scoring winger or two. Perry's got size, he's got a mean streak, he's got veteran experience, he's a RH shot, and he's a natural born goal-scorer. Probably doesn't cost the Oilers much cap space and it would be a stopgap. IMO, it's a good fit. Perry isn't the player he once was and I honestly haven't followed the Ducks closely enough to know how he compares to, say, 2018-19 Thomas Vanek. But this seems to me like a classic low-risk, high-reward proposition. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 50 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: I don't disagree with that though... What we were debating is how much they will make after this season as RFA's... We’ll see who’s here next year and how the season goes pretty pointless for us to debate it at this point lol... f*** we need the draft at this point 2 krsmith17 and Jonas Mahonas reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonas Mahonas 1,872 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 2 hours ago, krsmith17 said: "Being a screw". AKA Being a good general manager. No, a good gm (Holland with Larkin) locks guys up at fmv today that ends up below fmv as the contract ages. A bad GM (Holland with everyone else) signs players for more than or equal to fmv today and the contracts get less valuable over time. Thats why you want to get your rfas locked in long term at 22-24 yeas old. Then you arent renegotiating at the beginning of their pimes right after the best year of their entire career. In short, it would be wise for Yzerman to extend Mantha, AA, and Bertuzzi asap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 4 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Yzerman has already shown that he's willing to play hard ball with RFA's. If Athanasiou demands X amount of dollars and Yzerman doesn't believe he's worth X amount of dollars, he will ship him out. IF Athanasiou files for arbitration, gets a one year contract, Yzerman will not allow him to walk as a free agent next offseason. He will trade his ass at some point next season for a solid return. Likely scenario IF Athanasiou puts up 60 points next season: Athanasiou asks for $6.5M, Yzerman offers $4.5M. They eventually meet in the middle and settle around $5.5M. I know 'kids' these days have a chip on their shoulder (Maple Leafs are a beautiful example), but when a guy like Stevie Y tells you how things are gonna play out...If you don't listen, or continue to have that chip on your shoulder - yeah you can expect to be moved when HE decides it's time for you to go. 2 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said: KRS, you are acting like Yzerman being a screw to his own players wont have ramifications. Something tells me you work a desk job and dont deal with clients directly. Tell me...Who would you want running this club? Yzerman, or Chiarelli, or Dubas, or Wilson, or Fletcher? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said: No, a good gm (Holland with Larkin) locks guys up at fmv today that ends up below fmv as the contract ages. A bad GM (Holland with everyone else) signs players for more than or equal to fmv today and the contracts get less valuable over time. Thats why you want to get your rfas locked in long term at 22-24 yeas old. Then you arent renegotiating at the beginning of their pimes right after the best year of their entire career. In short, it would be wise for Yzerman to extend Mantha, AA, and Bertuzzi asap. What's your point? Are you saying that Yzerman should have signed Mantha and Athanasiou to extensions 2 years ago, while he was still the general manager of the Tampa Bay Lightning? I 100% agree with what you're saying here, it just has nothing to do with what we were originally talking about... GM's absolutely should lock their star players up long-term before their ELC's are up. However, it's a negotiation between player and general manager, so sometimes the GM's hands are tied. Holland wanted to sign Mantha long-term, but Mantha didn't want to. He instead bet on himself to put up a couple 30 goal seasons. He scored at a 30 goal pace last season, and I'm sure he will better than this season. Holland was smart to get him to the final year of RFA though, so he (now Yzerman) still has the upper hand in negotiations. I agree with the bold. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonas Mahonas 1,872 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: What's your point? Are you saying that Yzerman should have signed Mantha and Athanasiou to extensions 2 years ago, while he was still the general manager of the Tampa Bay Lightning? I 100% agree with what you're saying here, it just has nothing to do with what we were originally talking about... GM's absolutely should lock their star players up long-term before their ELC's are up. However, it's a negotiation between player and general manager, so sometimes the GM's hands are tied. Holland wanted to sign Mantha long-term, but Mantha didn't want to. He instead bet on himself to put up a couple 30 goal seasons. He scored at a 30 goal pace last season, and I'm sure he will better than this season. Holland was smart to get him to the final year of RFA though, so he (now Yzerman) still has the upper hand in negotiations. I agree with the bold. Cool. 30 minutes ago, F.Michael said: I know 'kids' these days have a chip on their shoulder (Maple Leafs are a beautiful example), but when a guy like Stevie Y tells you how things are gonna play out...If you don't listen, or continue to have that chip on your shoulder - yeah you can expect to be moved when HE decides it's time for you to go. Tell me...Who would you want running this club? Yzerman, or Chiarelli, or Dubas, or Wilson, or Fletcher? Yzerman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said: Cool. Yzerman. Indeed. Fletcher entered ChiaPet land when he handed the bank to Hayes, and Wilson - wtf - 8 years at 11 mill Dubas might get himself outta the dumpster this summer, but it'll take a miracle. We are so f**king lucky to have a competent GM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F.Michael 4,590 Report post Posted June 19, 2019 44 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Some of the recent signings only fuels the fire as to what the Marner camp will command (now speculation is that he’ll get $11 million)... They’re so f***ed Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
