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#121 Richdg

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

Yes, there is real hockey! But maybethe Wings didn't get the message? LOL... As bad as saturdays game was, you can't judge a season by one game. That being said, every weakness and fear that many of us have had was on full display sat. night. too old, too small, too weak, too scared etc.... As much as I love Micky on TV, I laugh my butt off everytime that "Franzen needs to address-pick another teams tough guy" like he did sat. night ref. backus. has franzen ever addressed anyone? If he ever tried too, he would just get another concussion anyway......

Ok enough with the negatives. the 48 game season should help the wings. fewer games means less wear and tear on our old bodies. Last year we were the best team after 50 games or so. But even if we do ok during the regular season, we will not make a deep playoff run. STL and LA are head and shoulders better than we are right now.

Either way, it is good to have hockey back! Even ifit means fighting for a top 10 draft pick!



#122 T.Low

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:17 PM

Hossa is so much better than Franzen it's not even funny.

 

 

Keeping Franzen was partially a byproduct of treating players as family instead of as assets.  The sad fact is, in a the sal cap world, treating plyaers like family is a luxury we cannot afford anymore. (whereas before, we simply would have kept both Franzen and Hossa)

 

I really like Danny Cleary, but he's going to have to dig deep and work his ass off to be effective again.  He can do it, but he's goiing to have to work harder than most to get it done.



#123 vladdy16

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:17 PM

This really should be merged with the "Chill out" thread, but we're having some technical difficulties so I was forced to lock it.

Let's try and keep discussions in appropriate threads instead of starting new ones, please.  


Can't wait to read the "Phoenix: I still think it's a hockey market" chapter of Gary Bettman's autobiography. I'm guessing it's going to be chapter 11.

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#124 esteef

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

...This summer, he made a concerted effort to get the best FA defenseman available, and it didn't happen for reasons that were mostly out of his control...After Franzen's dominating 2008 Cup winning performance and Hossa's disappearing act in the playoffs the one year we had him, not many were interested in keeping Hossa at the time. Of course NOW everyone will say that wanted Hossa, of course and that Holland is just an idiot. 

 

Concerted effort = expect top players to flock to Detroit for less money.  Those days are over.  Kenny threw a light check in the bucket with all the other teams and was surprised he didn't land him.  No one else was surprised.

 

And Hossa was and is a better player than Franzen, offensively and especially defensively.  Everyone knew this.  Kenny, as usual, took the cheaper of the two and got what he paid for.  Nobody ever wants to admit it when Holland cleary f***s up.

 

esteef


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#125 The Axe

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:22 PM

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="esteef" data-cid="2343007" data-time="1358788756"><p>
 <br />
Concerted effort = expect top players to flock to Detroit for less money.  Those days are over.  Kenny threw a light check in the bucket with all the other teams and was surprised he didn't land him.  No one else was surprised.<br />
 <br />
And Hossa was and is a better player than Franzen, offensively and especially defensively.  Everyone knew this.  Kenny, as usual, took the cheaper of the two and got what he paid for.  Nobody ever wants to admit it when Holland cleary f***s up.<br />
 <br />
esteef</p></blockquote>


Ding Ding Ding.

#126 Dabura

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

I disagree to an extent.

 

At that moment for Holland, he KNEW what Hossa was. He is a big body forward with good athleticism with a PROVEN track record. A guy who will give you at least 70-80 points every season.

 

Franzen was a diamond in the rough player at that point who had a nice couple of seasons, but he didn't have the proven history that Hossa did.

 

The reality is that Franzen cannot be the #1 goal scorer for a team. His two best seasons came when he was #2 (behind Hank in 2008 and behind Hossa in 2009).

 

All true.


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#127 swedishconnection

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:40 PM

 
first of all 14 shots on net. Second, remember our 7-1 loss to the caps last year to end our 5 game winning streak that started the season, and sparked a 6 game losing streak? Of course you don't, because wings fans have terrible memories of when we play awful and put it out of their minds. That way every time they have a real bad game we can go OMG WERE DOOMED!!! I'VE NEVER SEEN THE WINGS PLAY THIS BAD EVER. Give me a break, every team plays like amateurs from time to time.


I understand your need to fire back with a generality towards people with the same sentiment as me, so I definitely do not take it personal. However I have been on these boards since 2006 and have always had a positive outlook on the team. I assumed (wrongly so) that since what I was saying was coming from someone with a proven track record of "glass half full" that it would carry with it inherently larger meaning.

My point is that I am not merely one of those "OMG" fans as you had put it, but that even a reasonable and even-keel Wing Nut like myself can look at the last effort and feel like there was nothing positive in it. I do actually remember the losses you described, and I remember loosing a few in blowout fashion to Columbus over the years. Still, even with those sores of hockey games - my original point remains - that I cannot seriously remember a game that was as poor as the last against St. Louis.

I agree with a previous poster regarding our passing - it was simply non-existent. Had we been more on form the game may not have looked nearly as terrible, (yes that is a silly statement to make), but I recall several passes into skates or just out of reach that directly resulted in turnovers. I really hope we have a better performance tonight. Even if we dont - I will still be there and watching and cheering as best I can.
QUOTE
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#128 chrisdetroit

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:47 PM

The Wings play badly and floated [insert your own joke here] because "they have not been playing in a while, they have new faces, they have a new coach, they [insert excuse/reason here]." OK.  The other team has the same situation, typically.  What is it about the Wings that makes them disappear in statement games like last night's?

 

I am certainly not throwing them under the bus, but it's a logical question:   If they are rusty and don't have their game legs, and all the other teams have been under the same restrictions and also haven't played -- how come other teams play well and hand the Wings their jock straps in games like last night's?   Ew.

 

Of course they will get better - could hardly be worse - but I just have to wonder in my out-loud voice what, if anything, they were thinking, with that performance.

I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts. 

 

1.  St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year.  We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.

2.  St. Louis was at home

3.  We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.

4.  We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.

5.  We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.

 

As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.

 

The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games".  You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do.  Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night. 

 

Tonight is a huge game.  If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue.  If they do, then we can move on.


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#129 LeftWinger

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:50 PM

Hindsight is always 20/20...Rafalski retired totally unexpectedly and Holland got what he could last minute...This summer, he made a concerted effort to get the best FA defenseman available, and it didn't happen for reasons that were mostly out of his control...After Franzen's dominating 2008 Cup winning performance and Hossa's disappearing act in the playoffs the one year we had him, not many were interested in keeping Hossa at the time. Of course NOW everyone will say that wanted Hossa, of course and that Holland is just an idiot. 

I don't know when you became a Wings fan, or when you joined this forum. But during that off season, I can guarantee than this forum was at least 50-50 on whether to keep Franzen or Hossa. So it's not just now everyone is saying we want Hossa, it's been this way and has been debated back and forth since the day Marian signed with Chicago.  Also, you like to say Hossa had a disappearing act in 2009 playoffs, well, if you watched and were a fan back then, you'd know that he was seriously injured in those playoffs and missed half the next season due to surgery on that injury.  I wouldn't call it a disappearing act rather an ill-timed injury. Blaming Hossa for the 2009 loss is a copout.  Hossa has been and always will be better than Franzen, and it is one of the worst mistakes Holland has made.  The day he signed Hossa his team got better, and ever since he let him go, the team has gotten worse and worse...Since Holland couldn't or wouldn't address the issues sooner, you are now seeing him scramble to try to patch holes that he knew was coming and didn't have a plan for...ie giving up a 1st round pick for Quincey who isn't worth a 4th round pick...


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#130 swedishconnection

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts. 
 
1.  St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year.  We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.
2.  St. Louis was at home
3.  We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.
4.  We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.
5.  We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.
 
As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.
 
The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games".  You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do.  Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night. 
 
Tonight is a huge game.  If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue.  If they do, then we can move on.


This post makes me feel a lot better about our whole situation. We will know a lot more after tonight.
QUOTE
Mickey is one of the only colour commentators I've heard that gets angry when his team gets a powerplay as a result of a crap call from an official.

-Hockeytown0001

#131 chrisdetroit

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:00 PM

All true.

Really?  Franzen can't be the #1 goal scorer for a team.  Uh...  He was last year.  Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show. 


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#132 Dabura

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

Really?  Franzen can't be the #1 goal scorer for a team.  Uh...  He was last year.  Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show. 

 

I took it to mean, Franzen is most comfortable (and performs best) when he's not the #1 Guy.

 

Hossa is a known, and was a known at that point. He's one of the most consistent players in the league as far as production is concerned (and I'd also say as far as all-around commitment goes). Like I've said, maybe not a lamp-lighting force in the playoffs - but Franzen is? Put another way: "Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show" -  take away Franzen's '08 run, and the statement's a pretty good fit for him as well. The guy plays like a big-bodied Brett Hull, minus the stuff that made Hull an elite asset.

 

Hossa >>> Franzen. Kenny got the wrong guy. I know, hindsight blah blah blah. But, again, Hossa was a known. Franzen was still very much a question mark. Has he done anything since the signing to really make you say to yourself, "Thank GOD Kenny picked Franzen!"? You could say, "He scores 25-30 goals for us every season." So then why get on Hossa's case about disappearing in the playoffs and only being valuable in the regular season?

 

And then there's the contract. That big blessed albatross.


Edited by Dabura, 21 January 2013 - 01:34 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#133 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts. 
 
1.  St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year.  We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.
2.  St. Louis was at home
3.  We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.
4.  We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.
5.  We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.
 
As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.
 
The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games".  You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do.  Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night. 
 
Tonight is a huge game.  If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue.  If they do, then we can move on.

The Blues are WAY better than they were last year. McDonald is healthy, there's the starting point, Terasenko is a legit skilled forward and Jaden Schwarts adds loads of speed. St. Louis is one of the top teams in the West again this year for sure. Look at the way they skated...they won ALL the puck battles and they took the body as well on the forcheck. Any time the Wings even tried to get momentum, the Blues came back and stuffed it back in our faces.

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#134 LeftWinger

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:32 PM

Really?  Franzen can't be the #1 goal scorer for a team.  Uh...  He was last year.  Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show. 

2009-2010:

 

Hossa 15 points

 

Franzen 18 points

 

2010-2011:

 

Hossa 6 points

 

Franzen 3 points

 

2011-2012:

 

Hossa 0 points

 

Franzen 1 point

 

Hell even when Franzen had is great 2008 he had 18 points to Hossa's 26 points, the year they played together Hossa had 15 points to Franzen's 23 (a year in which Hossa was injured) so I would say playoffs they are pretty fricken even, so I am giving the win to Hossa because of his regular season dominance of Franzen...again, Franzen will NEVER score 40 goals here in Detroit. If nobody can look back and admit that Holland made a huge error in not keeping Hossa and opting for Franzen and Hudler, then you really need to take another look....

 

Just to add to this, since Hossa played here and left he has 261 points in 279 games 93% scoring.  Franzen in the same time period, 191 in 252 games 75% scoring. In that sme time period, Franzen is a +49 and Hossa is a +81...we can go on forever...

 

Hands down Hossa is far greater than Franzen ad Holland screwed the pooch on that one.


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#135 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

I took it to mean, Franzen is most comfortable (and performs best) when he's not the #1 Guy.

 

Hossa is a known, and was a known at that point. He's one of the most consistent players in the league as far as production is concerned (and I'd also say as far as all-around commitment goes). Like I've said, maybe not a lamp-lighting force in the playoffs - but Franzen is? Put another way: "Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show" -  take away Franzen's '08 run, and the statement's a pretty good fit for him as well. The guy plays like a big-bodied Brett Hull, minus the stuff that made Hull an elite asset.

 

Hossa >>> Franzen. Kenny got the wrong guy. I know, hindsight blah blah blah. But, again, Hossa was a known. Franzen was still very much a question mark. Has he done anything since the signing to really make you say to yourself, "Thank GOD Kenny picked Franzen." You could say, "He scores 25-30 goals for us every season." So then why get on Hossa's case about disappearing in the playoffs and only being valuable in the regular season?

 

And then there's the contract. That big blessed albatross.

 

And people overstate Hossa's playoff no show, I'm guessing based on the one season he was in Detroit. 

 

He has 97 points in 137 playoff games.  Looking through his playoff performances he's hardly a no-show.   And it's not exactly apples to apples to compare that to Franzen's three great playoff years.  

 

Hopefully for the Wings it was the last two playoffs that were a fluke for Mule and not the 3 before it. 



#136 LeftWinger

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

...and before anyone mentions the salaries, Hossa only makes $1.3M more than Franzen's cap hit. So, no, Hossa is hardly way more expensive than Franzen. This debate will never be over, but only when Holland dumps Franzen and somehow gets Hossa back.


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#137 GoWings1905

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

What exactly has Franzen done in the playoffs the past couple seasons anyways? I fully admit that his three year tear before that was beyond impressive and a huge factor in the Red Wings making deep playoff runs.

 

That being said, it's a hell of a lot easier for me to excuse Franzen's questionable work ethic during the regular season when he lives up to the reputation of playoff performer. He has three goals and four points in the past 13 playoff games. Besides streaky goal-scoring, what else does Johan Franzen provide to a hockey team? He doesn't use his size, isn't remotely physical and hasn't killed penalties since the early days of his career. Marian Hossa is an elite two-way forward that doesn't carry the label of lazy.

 

 Franzen's floating and having fun in the playoffs was a nice act when he actually performed.


Edited by GoWings1905, 21 January 2013 - 05:23 PM.

 
 
"To whom much is given, much is expected."
 
 

 

 

 

 


#138 Anijuice

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:58 PM

I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts. 

 

1.  St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year.  We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.

2.  St. Louis was at home

3.  We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.

4.  We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.

5.  We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.

 

As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.

 

The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games".  You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do.  Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night. 

 

Tonight is a huge game.  If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue.  If they do, then we can move on.

 

The problem with these "facts" are that they only support why the Blues were a more cohesive and prepared team on Saturday.  They do not explain why the Wings gave by far the worst performance out of any team playing, both Saturday and Sunday.  I watched bits of the majority of games over the last couple days, and the Wings were the only team that looked like they did not belong in the NHL.  No other team lost as decisively and by as wide a margin as we did on Saturday.  Seriously, the ass-kicking we received on Saturday was magnitudes worse than ass-kickings we've received in recent years (think Islanders, Montreal last year, the 10-3 loss to St. Louis, etc).

 

Even if injecting a few new players into our lineup is the big reason why we sucked so badly, then why didn't other teams suck who had the same problems?  Why were Zetterberg and Datsyuk the only players affected this severely from playing overseas, whereas others were not?  I didn't watch every part of every game, so maybe someone could point out another team's performance that was as dismal as ours.

 

Of course it's still too early to write this season off, but how anyone can see anything positive about the events on Saturday is beyond me.



#139 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:05 PM

Even if injecting a few new players into our lineup is the big reason why we sucked so badly, then why didn't other teams suck who had the same problems?  Why were Zetterberg and Datsyuk the only players affected this severely from playing overseas, whereas others were not?  I didn't watch every part of every game, so maybe someone could point out another team's performance that was as dismal as ours.

 

This.

There was an argument made in some thread that guys who played in Europe forgot how to deal with more physical nature of NHL. But Kovalchuk and Malkin does not appear affected. And Chara probably did not get any softer either.



#140 RusDRW

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:11 PM

  No other team lost as decisively and by as wide a margin as we did on Saturday.  Seriously, the ass-kicking we received on Saturday was magnitudes worse than ass-kickings we've received in recent years (think Islanders, Montreal last year, the 10-3 loss to St. Louis, etc).

 

Carolina Hurricanes says hi with their 1-5 loss to Florida Panthers. I expected a lot more from a team that signed J. Staal and A. Semin this summer. Well, at least we are not alone.


Sweet. This dude was brought here for one reason, to punch people in the head - every other thing that he can do, other Wings can do better. I like that we have a head-puncher. The league has other, better head-punchers, but this one is ours. Better than nothing. Good work, Kenny!

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