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wingnut4013

Everyone chill out!

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I disagree to an extent.

At that moment for Holland, he KNEW what Hossa was. He is a big body forward with good athleticism with a PROVEN track record. A guy who will give you at least 70-80 points every season.

Franzen was a diamond in the rough player at that point who had a nice couple of seasons, but he didn't have the proven history that Hossa did.

The reality is that Franzen cannot be the #1 goal scorer for a team. His two best seasons came when he was #2 (behind Hank in 2008 and behind Hossa in 2009).

All true.

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first of all 14 shots on net. Second, remember our 7-1 loss to the caps last year to end our 5 game winning streak that started the season, and sparked a 6 game losing streak? Of course you don't, because wings fans have terrible memories of when we play awful and put it out of their minds. That way every time they have a real bad game we can go OMG WERE DOOMED!!! I'VE NEVER SEEN THE WINGS PLAY THIS BAD EVER. Give me a break, every team plays like amateurs from time to time.

I understand your need to fire back with a generality towards people with the same sentiment as me, so I definitely do not take it personal. However I have been on these boards since 2006 and have always had a positive outlook on the team. I assumed (wrongly so) that since what I was saying was coming from someone with a proven track record of "glass half full" that it would carry with it inherently larger meaning.

My point is that I am not merely one of those "OMG" fans as you had put it, but that even a reasonable and even-keel Wing Nut like myself can look at the last effort and feel like there was nothing positive in it. I do actually remember the losses you described, and I remember loosing a few in blowout fashion to Columbus over the years. Still, even with those sores of hockey games - my original point remains - that I cannot seriously remember a game that was as poor as the last against St. Louis.

I agree with a previous poster regarding our passing - it was simply non-existent. Had we been more on form the game may not have looked nearly as terrible, (yes that is a silly statement to make), but I recall several passes into skates or just out of reach that directly resulted in turnovers. I really hope we have a better performance tonight. Even if we dont - I will still be there and watching and cheering as best I can.

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The Wings play badly and floated [insert your own joke here] because "they have not been playing in a while, they have new faces, they have a new coach, they [insert excuse/reason here]." OK. The other team has the same situation, typically. What is it about the Wings that makes them disappear in statement games like last night's?

I am certainly not throwing them under the bus, but it's a logical question: If they are rusty and don't have their game legs, and all the other teams have been under the same restrictions and also haven't played -- how come other teams play well and hand the Wings their jock straps in games like last night's? Ew.

Of course they will get better - could hardly be worse - but I just have to wonder in my out-loud voice what, if anything, they were thinking, with that performance.

I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts.

1. St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year. We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.

2. St. Louis was at home

3. We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.

4. We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.

5. We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.

As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.

The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games". You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do. Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night.

Tonight is a huge game. If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue. If they do, then we can move on.

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Hindsight is always 20/20...Rafalski retired totally unexpectedly and Holland got what he could last minute...This summer, he made a concerted effort to get the best FA defenseman available, and it didn't happen for reasons that were mostly out of his control...After Franzen's dominating 2008 Cup winning performance and Hossa's disappearing act in the playoffs the one year we had him, not many were interested in keeping Hossa at the time. Of course NOW everyone will say that wanted Hossa, of course and that Holland is just an idiot.

I don't know when you became a Wings fan, or when you joined this forum. But during that off season, I can guarantee than this forum was at least 50-50 on whether to keep Franzen or Hossa. So it's not just now everyone is saying we want Hossa, it's been this way and has been debated back and forth since the day Marian signed with Chicago. Also, you like to say Hossa had a disappearing act in 2009 playoffs, well, if you watched and were a fan back then, you'd know that he was seriously injured in those playoffs and missed half the next season due to surgery on that injury. I wouldn't call it a disappearing act rather an ill-timed injury. Blaming Hossa for the 2009 loss is a copout. Hossa has been and always will be better than Franzen, and it is one of the worst mistakes Holland has made. The day he signed Hossa his team got better, and ever since he let him go, the team has gotten worse and worse...Since Holland couldn't or wouldn't address the issues sooner, you are now seeing him scramble to try to patch holes that he knew was coming and didn't have a plan for...ie giving up a 1st round pick for Quincey who isn't worth a 4th round pick...

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I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts.

1. St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year. We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.

2. St. Louis was at home

3. We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.

4. We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.

5. We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.

As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.

The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games". You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do. Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night.

Tonight is a huge game. If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue. If they do, then we can move on.

This post makes me feel a lot better about our whole situation. We will know a lot more after tonight.

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Really? Franzen can't be the #1 goal scorer for a team. Uh... He was last year. Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show.

I took it to mean, Franzen is most comfortable (and performs best) when he's not the #1 Guy.

Hossa is a known, and was a known at that point. He's one of the most consistent players in the league as far as production is concerned (and I'd also say as far as all-around commitment goes). Like I've said, maybe not a lamp-lighting force in the playoffs - but Franzen is? Put another way: "Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show" - take away Franzen's '08 run, and the statement's a pretty good fit for him as well. The guy plays like a big-bodied Brett Hull, minus the stuff that made Hull an elite asset.

Hossa >>> Franzen. Kenny got the wrong guy. I know, hindsight blah blah blah. But, again, Hossa was a known. Franzen was still very much a question mark. Has he done anything since the signing to really make you say to yourself, "Thank GOD Kenny picked Franzen!"? You could say, "He scores 25-30 goals for us every season." So then why get on Hossa's case about disappearing in the playoffs and only being valuable in the regular season?

And then there's the contract. That big blessed albatross.

Edited by Dabura

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I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts.

1. St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year. We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.

2. St. Louis was at home

3. We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.

4. We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.

5. We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.

As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.

The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games". You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do. Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night.

Tonight is a huge game. If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue. If they do, then we can move on.

The Blues are WAY better than they were last year. McDonald is healthy, there's the starting point, Terasenko is a legit skilled forward and Jaden Schwarts adds loads of speed. St. Louis is one of the top teams in the West again this year for sure. Look at the way they skated...they won ALL the puck battles and they took the body as well on the forcheck. Any time the Wings even tried to get momentum, the Blues came back and stuffed it back in our faces.

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Really? Franzen can't be the #1 goal scorer for a team. Uh... He was last year. Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show.

2009-2010:

Hossa 15 points

Franzen 18 points

2010-2011:

Hossa 6 points

Franzen 3 points

2011-2012:

Hossa 0 points

Franzen 1 point

Hell even when Franzen had is great 2008 he had 18 points to Hossa's 26 points, the year they played together Hossa had 15 points to Franzen's 23 (a year in which Hossa was injured) so I would say playoffs they are pretty fricken even, so I am giving the win to Hossa because of his regular season dominance of Franzen...again, Franzen will NEVER score 40 goals here in Detroit. If nobody can look back and admit that Holland made a huge error in not keeping Hossa and opting for Franzen and Hudler, then you really need to take another look....

Just to add to this, since Hossa played here and left he has 261 points in 279 games 93% scoring. Franzen in the same time period, 191 in 252 games 75% scoring. In that sme time period, Franzen is a +49 and Hossa is a +81...we can go on forever...

Hands down Hossa is far greater than Franzen ad Holland screwed the pooch on that one.

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I took it to mean, Franzen is most comfortable (and performs best) when he's not the #1 Guy.

Hossa is a known, and was a known at that point. He's one of the most consistent players in the league as far as production is concerned (and I'd also say as far as all-around commitment goes). Like I've said, maybe not a lamp-lighting force in the playoffs - but Franzen is? Put another way: "Hossa is a great regular season player but a playoff no-show" - take away Franzen's '08 run, and the statement's a pretty good fit for him as well. The guy plays like a big-bodied Brett Hull, minus the stuff that made Hull an elite asset.

Hossa >>> Franzen. Kenny got the wrong guy. I know, hindsight blah blah blah. But, again, Hossa was a known. Franzen was still very much a question mark. Has he done anything since the signing to really make you say to yourself, "Thank GOD Kenny picked Franzen." You could say, "He scores 25-30 goals for us every season." So then why get on Hossa's case about disappearing in the playoffs and only being valuable in the regular season?

And then there's the contract. That big blessed albatross.

And people overstate Hossa's playoff no show, I'm guessing based on the one season he was in Detroit.

He has 97 points in 137 playoff games. Looking through his playoff performances he's hardly a no-show. And it's not exactly apples to apples to compare that to Franzen's three great playoff years.

Hopefully for the Wings it was the last two playoffs that were a fluke for Mule and not the 3 before it.

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...and before anyone mentions the salaries, Hossa only makes $1.3M more than Franzen's cap hit. So, no, Hossa is hardly way more expensive than Franzen. This debate will never be over, but only when Holland dumps Franzen and somehow gets Hossa back.

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What exactly has Franzen done in the playoffs the past couple seasons anyways? I fully admit that his three year tear before that was beyond impressive and a huge factor in the Red Wings making deep playoff runs.

That being said, it's a hell of a lot easier for me to excuse Franzen's questionable work ethic during the regular season when he lives up to the reputation of playoff performer. He has three goals and four points in the past 13 playoff games. Besides streaky goal-scoring, what else does Johan Franzen provide to a hockey team? He doesn't use his size, isn't remotely physical and hasn't killed penalties since the early days of his career. Marian Hossa is an elite two-way forward that doesn't carry the label of lazy.

Franzen's floating and having fun in the playoffs was a nice act when he actually performed.

Edited by GoWings1905

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I'm not making excuses but you have to consider all of the facts.

1. St. Louis has essentially the same team as last year. We had several new guys so the short training camp effected them less.

2. St. Louis was at home

3. We were missing our fastest most energetic guy in Helm.

4. We were missing one of our biggest tough guys in Bertuzzi.

5. We had beaten the Blues the last 4 times that we played them (yes, that's true - look it up) so they were obviously out for revenge.

As I said, that doesn't excuse their performance but you need to keep things in perspective.

The Wings don't always disappear in "statement games". You only seem to remeber the ones in which they do. Just ask the Blues whom they beat 4 times in a row before last night.

Tonight is a huge game. If they don't come out and play hard agains the BJ's then there is a real issue. If they do, then we can move on.

The problem with these "facts" are that they only support why the Blues were a more cohesive and prepared team on Saturday. They do not explain why the Wings gave by far the worst performance out of any team playing, both Saturday and Sunday. I watched bits of the majority of games over the last couple days, and the Wings were the only team that looked like they did not belong in the NHL. No other team lost as decisively and by as wide a margin as we did on Saturday. Seriously, the ass-kicking we received on Saturday was magnitudes worse than ass-kickings we've received in recent years (think Islanders, Montreal last year, the 10-3 loss to St. Louis, etc).

Even if injecting a few new players into our lineup is the big reason why we sucked so badly, then why didn't other teams suck who had the same problems? Why were Zetterberg and Datsyuk the only players affected this severely from playing overseas, whereas others were not? I didn't watch every part of every game, so maybe someone could point out another team's performance that was as dismal as ours.

Of course it's still too early to write this season off, but how anyone can see anything positive about the events on Saturday is beyond me.

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Even if injecting a few new players into our lineup is the big reason why we sucked so badly, then why didn't other teams suck who had the same problems? Why were Zetterberg and Datsyuk the only players affected this severely from playing overseas, whereas others were not? I didn't watch every part of every game, so maybe someone could point out another team's performance that was as dismal as ours.

This.

There was an argument made in some thread that guys who played in Europe forgot how to deal with more physical nature of NHL. But Kovalchuk and Malkin does not appear affected. And Chara probably did not get any softer either.

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No other team lost as decisively and by as wide a margin as we did on Saturday. Seriously, the ass-kicking we received on Saturday was magnitudes worse than ass-kickings we've received in recent years (think Islanders, Montreal last year, the 10-3 loss to St. Louis, etc).

Carolina Hurricanes says hi with their 1-5 loss to Florida Panthers. I expected a lot more from a team that signed J. Staal and A. Semin this summer. Well, at least we are not alone.

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Many of you fans sat down with their families, friends, strangers at a bar (me); to watch the Detroit Red Wings take on the St. Louis Blues in the season opener. Despite the brutal beating that was generously provided by the home team, fans of the Red Wings need not judge, worry, nor watch the game through their fingers during the home opener tomorrow. Detroit is still the same Central Division powerhouse we all know and love.

Edited by steves1126

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FWIW; Doug McLean was on Vancouver Team 1040 today and said he was talking to the Detroit Organization and they told him it was frightenning how much better St Louis was than them, and how good they are this season.

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Guest Playmaker   
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I don't know when you became a Wings fan, or when you joined this forum. But during that off season, I can guarantee than this forum was at least 50-50 on whether to keep Franzen or Hossa. So it's not just now everyone is saying we want Hossa, it's been this way and has been debated back and forth since the day Marian signed with Chicago. Also, you like to say Hossa had a disappearing act in 2009 playoffs, well, if you watched and were a fan back then, you'd know that he was seriously injured in those playoffs and missed half the next season due to surgery on that injury. I wouldn't call it a disappearing act rather an ill-timed injury. Blaming Hossa for the 2009 loss is a copout. Hossa has been and always will be better than Franzen, and it is one of the worst mistakes Holland has made. The day he signed Hossa his team got better, and ever since he let him go, the team has gotten worse and worse...Since Holland couldn't or wouldn't address the issues sooner, you are now seeing him scramble to try to patch holes that he knew was coming and didn't have a plan for...ie giving up a 1st round pick for Quincey who isn't worth a 4th round pick...

Been a Wings fan since the early 1980's and a season ticket holder until the 2005 lockout. If you've been a Wings fan for that long or longer, you'll remember some of the things that used to be said about this team...Like Steve Yzerman isn't a good leader and can't produce in the playoffs...After losing his first few years here, that Scotty Bowman was too old and the game had passed him by(Remember when he had a trade lined up to send Stevie Y to Ottawa?)...That no way could the Wings win with a bunch of Russians...We'll never win with that play off slacker Fedorov...We'll never win with all those "old" guys...we're too old and too slow...We need a big tough defenseman...We need a power forward...we need a star goaltender...We'll never win with Vernon...never, ever with Osgood...The Wings are too soft...too many Swedes...we should trade all our old baggage for good young players and cleary the management is stupid if they don't...After 98, we're surely in rebuilding mode and we'll never win again...after 2002, well surely that was it...Too old and surely we'll never win with out Yzerman...

So after 20+ years of playoffs, conference semi finals, WCF, Stanley Cup Finals and 4 Stanley Cup Championships, watching Hall of Famers in their primes... forgive me if I tend to give the Wings management the benefit of the doubt...There isn't any GM in any sport who's made the right decision on everything...never happened, never will...

Of course everyone is a masterful GM when they're sitting behind a keyboard and can make up all sorts of fantasy scenerios in their heads and not have to live in reality...

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Reading down the schedule a couple weeks, we could easily be at 4 wins, 8 losses...then I got discouraged and stopped reading. EVERYONE has gotten better, we have gotten substantially worse.

This is going to be the longest short season ever.

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Looks like Holland was right. We are in the Seth Jones sweepstakes.

Hard to do without a first round pick!

People need to calm down. Since the first game, defense hasn't been a problem. I've actually been pretty impressed with both our defense and Jimmy Howard. It's our offense that isn't getting it done so far. I don't view that as a problem because we all know they can score. Once our forwards start picking it up and burying their chances, I think we'll be in pretty good shape.

Until then just calm down. Its only been 3 games

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